Sidd2011-10-10 22:04:30
Denust:
EDIT: That doesn't seem particularly fair, Sidd. If they don't "care enough to give it a decent try," maybe it's for reasons beyond "I don't have a curing system," whether or not they have "potential."
That's what I mean, it definitely isn't because they don't have a system, lots of people have systems, but still don't really fight. Everyone has the potential, but it takes work. People don't become top-tier in a matter of the time it took to dl a system. There's a lot of different stuff to deal with and for whatever reason or not, People decide not to become fighters for lots of different reasons.
Kiradawea:
There's a difference between a challenge and work. Building a system is not a challenge. It's work. And for many, it's work they won't be able to do because they don't have the frame of mind and knowledge required to code.
For you maybe, I know a few people that do enjoy it. I started without the slightest idea about how to code and now I help people with coding questions all the time. I've taken a stab at coding a system and really, the only reason I didn't finish it is because I helped Vadi with m&m and a lot of updates he's done are at my suggestion. But it turns out challenges come in a lot of different forms. I know lots of people that enjoy questing, people that enjoy bashing, whatever. If every quest was handed to you and wasn't a challenge, what kind of accomplishment would that be? If it was easy to get to every room in Lusternia, we'd all be Planeswalkers. Challenges come in many different forms, if you don't want to bash, then don't, influence. There shouldn't be a server-side system to eliminate an aspect of the game you dislike because other people may enjoy getting around it.
Enyalida2011-10-10 22:12:57
Sidd:
There's nothing wrong with that, to each their own etc. but it doesn't mean the administration of lusternia should provide them the means to become great at combat because they don't want to work at it.
Whoa, who said anything about making anyone great. A basic sipper wouldn't do that anymore then FIRSTAID makes systemless people good at combat. For that matter, who said 'combat'?
Unknown2011-10-10 22:13:57
To be honest, I don't really see any particular difference between having a server-side autohealer and getting Treant. The only step you're skipping is going to the forums and looking up how to get Treant. As I said, Garryn is already working on coding a server-side autohealer for Imperian and just the idea has been received pretty well.
I'm going to agree with Kira (and also note that while you and several others enjoy coding, there is at least one person who doesn't per each one of you), and also note that you are twisting words. Obviously, the game would be terribly boring if you could kill one rat or influence one random child in a village and automatically have Demigod. As much as quests might make me pull my hair out at times, I don't want them to be simple "fetch, carry, get honours" deals. That's not what Kira's advocating (and neither am I), so enough with that particular strawman please?
An autohealer will in no way make anyone combat-ready, and I doubt it will replace a custom system. As has already been noted, FIRSTAID does not give one the ability to stand up for long in PvP - at best, it makes bashing easier.
I'm going to agree with Kira (and also note that while you and several others enjoy coding, there is at least one person who doesn't per each one of you), and also note that you are twisting words. Obviously, the game would be terribly boring if you could kill one rat or influence one random child in a village and automatically have Demigod. As much as quests might make me pull my hair out at times, I don't want them to be simple "fetch, carry, get honours" deals. That's not what Kira's advocating (and neither am I), so enough with that particular strawman please?
An autohealer will in no way make anyone combat-ready, and I doubt it will replace a custom system. As has already been noted, FIRSTAID does not give one the ability to stand up for long in PvP - at best, it makes bashing easier.
Unknown2011-10-10 22:14:35
I'm sorry. Are you trying to tell me that buying a system (as I did) is in any way a challenge? Or that coding a system is part of Lusty's challenge? That learning a skillset that is NOT part of the game is part of it's 'fun'? And they you shouldn't be able to skip out on this 'fun' because you despise computer programming?
Sidd2011-10-10 22:19:15
Denust:
To be honest, I don't really see any particular difference between having a server-side autohealer and getting Treant. The only step you're skipping is going to the forums and looking up how to get Treant. As I said, Garryn is already working on coding a server-side autohealer for Imperian and just the idea has been received pretty well.
I'm going to agree with Kira (and also note that while you and several others enjoy coding, there is at least one person who doesn't per each one of you), and also note that you are twisting words. Obviously, the game would be terribly boring if you could kill one rat or influence one random child in a village and automatically have Demigod. As much as quests might make me pull my hair out at times, I don't want them to be simple "fetch, carry, get honours" deals. That's not what Kira's advocating (and neither am I), so enough with that particular strawman please?
People are twisting my words as well. I think firstaid is great and all that's needed to remove the entrance barrier into basic curing. I don't think anymore is needed. I use the combat and questing examples as just that, examples.
Maybe a few upgrades to firstaid to make it a bit better like Ssaliss suggested but I think people should achieve things, not have them handed to them. That's all I'm trying to say. As I said, just because you don't like coding (or lots of others for that matter) doesn't mean that everyone doesn't like it and those that don't, should be catered to.
Sidd2011-10-10 22:21:44
foolofsound:
I'm sorry. Are you trying to tell me that buying a system (as I did) is in any way a challenge? Or that coding a system is part of Lusty's challenge? That learning a skillset that is NOT part of the game is part of it's 'fun'? And they you shouldn't be able to skip out on this 'fun' because you despise computer programming?
No, I'm telling you that basic bashing isn't a barrier that needs removed because there are options around it already. If you don't want to code, fine, don't code, you can find others to help you with that, why should the game cater to you because you don't want to figure out how to get a sipper that's pretty much readily available already?
Unknown2011-10-10 22:22:05
Except no one's said "You shouldn't be able to code your own systems anymore." Adding an autohealer, an autosipper, or improving FirstAid - whichever - that's not going to suddenly invalidate systems that have been coded by players. And I don't really get how adding one is "catering to people." If it helps with player retention, I'm all for it.
Sidd2011-10-10 22:25:48
I just don't think it will, I think it's already readily available enough to not be needed in anything more advanced that firstaid. I'll go ahead and bow out now, I think that people will disagree with me and I'm starting to look a bit foolish I feel.
Talan2011-10-10 22:28:27
Having to respond to game output is part of the game. Players need to understand that from the word go. It is as true for a mob hitting you as it is for a guild or city leader addressing you. There is a response for each that has to be made by the player. That there even exist these ready to wear systems, let alone multiple ones on your choice of client, is a total novelty. No hard-coded mollycoddling, please. Firstaid is wonderful for people getting started, and even as a failsafe for these systems. It is enough.
Unknown2011-10-10 22:33:42
Talan:
Having to respond to game output is part of the game. Players need to understand that from the word go. It is as true for a mob hitting you as it is for a guild or city leader addressing you. There is a response for each that has to be made by the player. That there even exist these ready to wear systems, let alone multiple ones on your choice of client, is a total novelty. No hard-coded mollycoddling, please. Firstaid is wonderful for people getting started, and even as a failsafe for these systems. It is enough.
How can you say that when Lusty combat is absolutely based around systems? The human eye cannot track nor can the human hands respond to the game output fast enough to be viable. I challenge you to find a single combatant, or even high level basher, who does not use a system of some sort.
Making basic curing/sipping easier for new players can do nothing but improve player retention rates, especially in a game where they are necessary at mid-high level bashing, and much more so in actual combat.
Sidd2011-10-10 22:34:36
foolofsound:
How can you say that when Lusty combat is absolutely based around systems? The human eye cannot track nor can the human hands respond to the game output fast enough to be viable. I challenge you to find a single combatant, or even high level basher, who does not use a system of some sort.
Making basic curing/sipping easier for new players can do nothing but improve player retention rates, especially in a game where they are necessary at mid-high level bashing, and much more so in actual combat.
I manually bashed to level 80
Unknown2011-10-10 22:36:00
Really? You bashed to level 80 with no sort of Autosipper or aliases? I am firmly expressing doubt about that.
Sidd2011-10-10 22:38:00
foolofsound:
Really? you bashed to level 80 with no sort of Autosipper or aliases? I am firmly expressing doubt about that.
I had macros to sip and writhe and focus and hit. It was pretty simple. As I said, I started with absolutely no idea how to code, and only really started to learn once I started combat.
Unknown2011-10-10 22:38:03
I've manually bashed to 77, which isn't terribly far off from 80 to make much of a difference. You can pick bashing spots with minimal (or negligible) afflictions, though you also have to hope that they haven't already been cleared out. To be fair, I bashed from sixty-something to where I am now as a monk with a ridiculous amount of passive regeneration that an autosipper wouldn't actually do much good for me except to waste sips.
EDIT: Actually, even as a mage, I bashed from 50+ using Nexus (long before FirstAid was released, mind you) with only one alias and one variable (pst = POINT STAFF $TARGET). I did everything else manually. It's doable if you confine yourself to areas with afflictions that are negligible (dizziness for magic users, limb breaks, prones) and if you've picked an archetype that has a decent bit of passive regen, either through skills or from a racial bonus. I'll concede that I'm a bit of an outlier, but only so much as monks in general are outliers when it comes to bashing efficiency.
EDIT 2: I'm still using Nexus. I fiddled around with Treant for a while, partly because of an in-game guild requirement, but PvP has never really been "my thing." And I never used Treant outside the arena. I missed Nexus' GUI.
EDIT: Actually, even as a mage, I bashed from 50+ using Nexus (long before FirstAid was released, mind you) with only one alias and one variable (pst = POINT STAFF $TARGET). I did everything else manually. It's doable if you confine yourself to areas with afflictions that are negligible (dizziness for magic users, limb breaks, prones) and if you've picked an archetype that has a decent bit of passive regen, either through skills or from a racial bonus. I'll concede that I'm a bit of an outlier, but only so much as monks in general are outliers when it comes to bashing efficiency.
EDIT 2: I'm still using Nexus. I fiddled around with Treant for a while, partly because of an in-game guild requirement, but PvP has never really been "my thing." And I never used Treant outside the arena. I missed Nexus' GUI.
Ssaliss2011-10-10 22:39:47
I wouldn't consider aliases as part of a system, but that's beside the point. And there already is a way to make healing easier for young people: It's called FirstAid. You can use it to keep track of what afflictions you have, add and remove afflictions as you wish, it fills/lights pipes for you and keeps track of herb/salve/smoke balances, all without taking balance.
Xiel2011-10-10 22:44:41
I can see people desiring an auto-sipper, but I have to agree with the majority and say that FirstAid is the basic system that's already available to help beginners out.
Talan2011-10-10 22:46:26
foolofsound:
How can you say that when Lusty combat is absolutely based around systems? The human eye cannot track nor can the human hands respond to the game output fast enough to be viable. I challenge you to find a single combatant, or even high level basher, who does not use a system of some sort.
Making basic curing/sipping easier for new players can do nothing but improve player retention rates, especially in a game where they are necessary at mid-high level bashing, and much more so in actual combat.
I can say that because Lusty combat != Lusternia. There is a hell of a lot to do that does not require a system at all. It is perfectly reasonable for players to spend their lowbie/midbie days on a very basic, cobbled together system of triggers they've made themselves. I also bashed/influenced up to around 70 or so before getting a proper system. It's not a required investment right off the bat, and for the majority of players it never is. It's true that you need it if you get into fighting the broad range of skills, but for lower level people, within that range of might, you can easily get by on a few triggers. Bashing is a non-issue.
A new player getting a system is very much in the same vein to me as a new player buying 1000 credits in his first week. Certainly it helps to elevate him more quickly - and equally certainly, it is not required to be thoroughly engaged by and enamored of the game.
Malarious2011-10-10 22:48:11
Firstaid is sufficient as it is now, auto sipping is the only real addition that may be worth having. But you are talking about SERVERSIDE analysis every prompt of every person. This is where we introduce a basic nexus sipper or something. I am sure someone could make an autosipper for any given client. This is far too much processor time trying to decide if you should sip, which is why such things are on the CLIENT not the server to do.
As for needing to work for something, you do not have to work for much, you certainly do not need to "work" to get demigod anymore, just lock into module and allow all your automations to do it for you. If you do not want to put in the effort to excel at something then why should we reward you for it. I got to a high level off of manual everything and I BASHED demigod.
Sipping can be done but does not feel like a "major" concern. Although i would encourage a sipper for every cilent (vadi if you could make one for MM I am sure someone could make one for mush, I probably could off of just prompt trigs). Nexus someone, probably Vadi again.
As to the concern of if something is too much work... Harden up Princess. You should have to work for demigod not be handed it, same is true of so much in Lusternia.
As for needing to work for something, you do not have to work for much, you certainly do not need to "work" to get demigod anymore, just lock into module and allow all your automations to do it for you. If you do not want to put in the effort to excel at something then why should we reward you for it. I got to a high level off of manual everything and I BASHED demigod.
Sipping can be done but does not feel like a "major" concern. Although i would encourage a sipper for every cilent (vadi if you could make one for MM I am sure someone could make one for mush, I probably could off of just prompt trigs). Nexus someone, probably Vadi again.
As to the concern of if something is too much work... Harden up Princess. You should have to work for demigod not be handed it, same is true of so much in Lusternia.
Unknown2011-10-10 22:51:54
If a server side curing system is impractical, then by all means, forget it. At the very least an auto-sipper of some kind should be introduced, though I agree that this is probably not a major concern to be addressed in this report. I just feel that it would help player retention rates, not actually help existing players.
Unknown2011-10-10 22:52:05
Vadi already made an autosipper for Nexus. It's for Achaea, but it could be quickly adapted to Lusternia. Up to him if he wants to post it, though.
EDIT: It's also free. I made sure to snag it beforehand, just in case he decides to start charging for it. (Which would be entirely his right.) :P
EDIT 2: Also, I've contributed enough to this thread's derailment. I'll try to make this the last off-topic post I make. Today.
EDIT: It's also free. I made sure to snag it beforehand, just in case he decides to start charging for it. (Which would be entirely his right.) :P
EDIT 2: Also, I've contributed enough to this thread's derailment. I'll try to make this the last off-topic post I make. Today.
