I'm not sure an ability designed just for shadows would fly. Adding it to trueground means you can't cure choke when you're getting raided unless you want to drop the meld.

I am still a fan of either forcing the 1v1 or adding focus spirit/cleanse as a cure for it.

I also kind of like the idea that quicksilver should prevent choking, but getting choked should strip it, like with classic aeon. That way, people can't just open up with it. Choking quicksilver off should probably cost 0p. As a tangential thought, anyway.

So, lets hypothetically say that our solution looks like this:

Choke is cured with Focus Spirit.
Choke is blocked by quicksilver, but strips it. It costs no power to do this.


My concerns would be:
1) Is focus spirit the cure that kills the patient? Would it be possible to too easily blast someone's mana resulting in far to easy and rapid toadings?

2) Do the SDs have the proper tools to land choke on a target if they are dealing with quicksilver, 1v1?

I would really prefer seeing a way to dispel Shadows. Currently shadows are like an uber-mense in that they can be released anywhere and utilized for effects, but cannot be dispelled.

I would like Shadows to be dispersed (perhaps with trueground?). The eq recovery of releasing shadows to be increased (at least doubled), and for choke to ONLY be able to be cast by the SD that released the shadows in the room, and also for it to consume the shadows. Perhaps even make it that shadows cannot be dispersed while the SD is in the room.

I think 1v1 solution would be better than the Focus Spirit one, but the Focus Spirit solution seems more easier to just work in (which is what the admin are looking for).

Well, that's where we enter the realm of theorycrafting.

Ideally, when choke is cured, the victim can now sip/sparkle/scroll at his leisure and easily make up the mana lost while at the same time trying to run away if needed.

I feel like if you're talking about groups, I believe that it should be on the player to decide whether focus spiriting to cure choke is worth it against the group they're fighting. 1v1 It won't really matter much because it will involve some measure of strategy to ensure that the focus spirit does pay off.

I disagree with comparing shadows to a meld though. They are separate things and should be treated as such.

2) Not quite, because Choke takes 5.4 - 5.1s eq, whereas quicksilver without timewarps comes up every 5s. (yes, it really does take that long of EQ, leaving you so much opportunity to simply walk out and shield and still have balance before the choker gets their eq back. A far cry from the instab people are terrorized of). Quicksilver will make people immune to Choke in 1v1.

Rainydays:

So, lets hypothetically say that our solution looks like this:

Choke is cured with Focus Spirit.
Choke is blocked by quicksilver, but strips it. It costs no power to do this.


My concerns would be:
1) Is focus spirit the cure that kills the patient? Would it be possible to too easily blast someone's mana resulting in far to easy and rapid toadings?

2) Do the SDs have the proper tools to land choke on a target if they are dealing with quicksilver, 1v1?

Regarding one, seeing that Choke itself would only have the option for a new cure, then technically it shouldn't really change much of anything? You don't HAVE to focus spirit to cure Choke. You could cure it all the old ways, or try to fight through it. It just gives you an option to stop it.

FocusSpirit is a transcendent ability, albeit a rather lackluster one. You'd have to make it 100% reliable to make it useful, and still there will be a majority of people without this ability to cure Choke.

Vadi:

2) Not quite, because Choke takes 5.4 - 5.1s eq, whereas quicksilver without timewarps comes up every 5s. (yes, it really does take that long of EQ, leaving you so much oppurtunity to simply walk out and shield and still have balance before the choker gets their eq back). Quicksilver will make people immune to Choke in 1v1.

Yeah that's a good point, what if it also halved the eq (of choking off quicksilver) or whatever amount makes it doable 1v1?

Kiradawea:

Regarding one, seeing that Choke itself would only have the option for a new cure, then technically it shouldn't really change much of anything? You don't HAVE to focus spirit to cure Choke. You could cure it all the old ways, or try to fight through it. It just gives you an option to stop it.

That's about it, yes.

Sojiro:

Also I just asked Iosai, and it would be possible to make focus spirit cure x aff 100% of the time.

On another note:

About trans abilities: requiring trans discipline is already a necessity for combat, so I don't really see that big of an issue there.

Vadi:

2) Not quite, because Choke takes 5.4 - 5.1s eq, whereas quicksilver without timewarps comes up every 5s. (yes, it really does take that long of EQ, leaving you so much opportunity to simply walk out and shield and still have balance before the choker gets their eq back. A far cry from the instab people are terrorized of). Quicksilver will make people immune to Choke in 1v1.

Yes, that's what I was afraid of, but Soj came up with a solution above, perhaps.

Do SDs have other abilities in their toolbox (tertiaries included) that would allow them to get by quicksilver by a method other than "spamming" choke?

They have no other raze type abilities, no.

2.5s just to strip quicksilver? I can't say I agree, because Ebonguard won't have an issue with this while SDs will be in big trouble.

Vadi:

2) Not quite, because Choke takes 5.4 - 5.1s eq, whereas quicksilver without timewarps comes up every 5s. (yes, it really does take that long of EQ, leaving you so much opportunity to simply walk out and shield and still have balance before the choker gets their eq back. A far cry from the instab people are terrorized of). Quicksilver will make people immune to Choke in 1v1.

The instagib is not due to the choker getting balance. It could take 10 seconds (or even 20 seconds) of eq and still run into the instagib problem. Reducing the eq when it hits quicksilver to a normal balance would be fine in this situation. These will help a lot, I don't think that it will fix the underlying mechanical problems with juggling bombs.

Choke isn't the only bomb in the game, by the way. Things like Crucify are equally troublesome for uneven ganks. Are you sure it's the bomb aspect we're addressing? Because other combinations aren't even on the board at all.

Sojiro:


That's about it, yes.



On another note:

About trans abilities: requiring trans discipline is already a necessity for combat, so I don't really see that big of an issue there.

It's not as big as a necessity as other trans skills, though. I'm not disagreeing here, but there would be a shift in priority.

Vadi:

Choke isn't the only bomb in the game, by the way. Things like Crucify are equally troublesome for uneven ganks. Are you sure it's the bomb aspect we're addressing? Because other combinations aren't even on the board at all.

I've never understood nor heard a compelling reason why crucify is -equally- compelling. Sure, it can be dangerous, but I've never been convinced that the whole crucify talk in relation to choke is nothing more than propaganda. There's a big difference in power costs (crucify is 8, choke is 3?) and while shadows are needed, crucify is cured via writhe and doesn't prevent curing or give an aeonic effect. Choke does.

Feel free to make an argument though.

How long ago have you had it used on you? It prevents most curing, including sipping - which with 3-4 able Aeoners in a room, turns it into a really deadly 'bomb'.

Vadi:

If you don't want to kill them or didn't know you could, or refuse to, well then, I don't think the balancing should cater to such personal choices. It's a smart move, and if this 1v1 prism thing does in, SDs will be boned against people with a brain to bash all the ents first

Nothing stops you from simply re-summoning them, in shorter time than it takes to kill them usually as well. Argument voided.

Re-summoning costs 1p (3p), which can be quite hefty in the long run.

Argument is not voided, because double-handed warriors and kill two ents at once. *beep*. The SD can't do it forever either, because killing them is much cheaper than summoning.

(but why am I arguing against my own class anyway? Feel free to believe what you think - it's better for me in practice!)

Vadi:

How long ago have you had it used on you? It prevents most curing, including sipping - which with 3-4 able Aeoners in a room, turns it into a really deadly 'bomb'.

Consider exactly what you are saying here. You are comparing Choke bomb (which requires just 1 Night user) against the "Crucify bomb" which would involve a nihilist and 3-4 other people to aeon the target down..

Crucify can be cured (writhe) and choke cannot. When a group with choke enters the room or their target enters the room they are in, they can almost -instantly- choke their target down and either pinleg them, pfifth them, Hold them, etc and the target is dead.

If a group with Crucify enters and a Necromancer is stupid enough to toss a crucify out instantly without any prep, then I would be very shocked that this target was even phased by it... . Also please remember that without Ectoplasm on the target, the target can writhe off before the Necromancer even regains eq to take advantage of it.

No, Choke != Crucify in Group OP Combos. You actually have to build up for Crucify to be effective (scabies, epilepsy, ectoplasm).

Also please remember Crucify costs 8 power alone and thus can only be used once, while Choke costs 3 power and can be shot at 3 targets in 1 group vs group attack (this being when the target would easily die when Choked and thus switching to another). A simple novice with the Night skill can be standing in his group and be told to Choke the biggest threat in the enemy group.

Choke takes no skill, Crucify does.


Edit: To Sum it up: Choke can be done single, takes no skill, Crucify needs set up to be at all effective, and can easily be writhed out of if it is just tossed in a group in the beginning