Vadi2011-10-15 12:53:55
How does "Consider exactly what you are saying here." lead to "Edit: To Sum it up: Choke can be done single, takes no skill, Crucify needs set up to be at all effective, and can easily be writhed out of if it is just tossed in a group in the beginning "
Er? You obviously have not considered what you are saying here.
If someone drops choke at the start of a fight, the victim will be unafflicted and will able to just walk out (with a 1 second delay on the walking out). Unlike crucify, where you are hindered by it.
Regardless, both would be done on some afflictions, and both have the same effect when that happens.
(I'm not sure how can you even claim that the target will be unphased. Being overly dramatic is not helpful here, nor chalking up one side to be absolutely stupid and the other not)
The current solutions so far are not satisfying everyones negatives views on the skill and they are getting more and more comical with each iteration. This is not being productive and so I'll bow out.
Er? You obviously have not considered what you are saying here.
If someone drops choke at the start of a fight, the victim will be unafflicted and will able to just walk out (with a 1 second delay on the walking out). Unlike crucify, where you are hindered by it.
Regardless, both would be done on some afflictions, and both have the same effect when that happens.
(I'm not sure how can you even claim that the target will be unphased. Being overly dramatic is not helpful here, nor chalking up one side to be absolutely stupid and the other not)
The current solutions so far are not satisfying everyones negatives views on the skill and they are getting more and more comical with each iteration. This is not being productive and so I'll bow out.
Unknown2011-10-15 16:01:22
Arcanis:
Consider exactly what you are saying here. You are comparing Choke bomb (which requires just 1 Night user) against the "Crucify bomb" which would involve a nihilist and 3-4 other people to aeon the target down..
Crucify can be cured (writhe) and choke cannot. When a group with choke enters the room or their target enters the room they are in, they can almost -instantly- choke their target down and either pinleg them, pfifth them, Hold them, etc and the target is dead.
If a group with Crucify enters and a Necromancer is stupid enough to toss a crucify out instantly without any prep, then I would be very shocked that this target was even phased by it... . Also please remember that without Ectoplasm on the target, the target can writhe off before the Necromancer even regains eq to take advantage of it.
No, Choke != Crucify in Group OP Combos. You actually have to build up for Crucify to be effective (scabies, epilepsy, ectoplasm).
Also please remember Crucify costs 8 power alone and thus can only be used once, while Choke costs 3 power and can be shot at 3 targets in 1 group vs group attack (this being when the target would easily die when Choked and thus switching to another). A simple novice with the Night skill can be standing in his group and be told to Choke the biggest threat in the enemy group.
Choke takes no skill, Crucify does.
Edit: To Sum it up: Choke can be done single, takes no skill, Crucify needs set up to be at all effective, and can easily be writhed out of if it is just tossed in a group in the beginning
1) A "Choke bomb" needs 1 Nightuser to Choke, and at least one other to hinder (which can still be ineffective, because of things like Tumble). Otherwise the target escapes.
2) "choke their target down and either pinleg them, pfifth them, Hold them, etc and the target is dead." None of these actually kill the target. At least one other round of attacks is needed to kill the target.
3) "Also please remember that without Ectoplasm on the target, the target can writhe off before the Necromancer even regains eq to take advantage of it." Similarly, a Choke target can move before the Nightuser regains eq. As Crucify needs Ectoplasm, so does Choke need a hinderer (or two).
4) "A simple novice with the Night skill can be standing in his group and be told to Choke the biggest threat in the enemy group." If the enemy group is smart enough to take out the simple novice first, then the threat is out. Choke is two-way. And yes, the Choke user group has the advantage of being able to know when to drop Choke, but honestly the target group should be smart enough to know when, too. There's already a message for it for the whole room to see. When a target is being targetted assume always that he will be choked, at which point you must be poised to pound on the Choke user.
Unknown2011-10-15 16:32:16
Vadi:
How long ago have you had it used on you? It prevents most curing, including sipping - which with 3-4 able Aeoners in a room, turns it into a really deadly 'bomb'.
Right there, you admit that they're not the same. "Which with 3-4 able Aeoners in a room...." I don't care about that. Choke doesn't need "3-4 able able Aeoners in a room" to be deadly. I can take one other person to make it deadly, and if we're discussing group damage potential, choke requires less hindering to get the bomb effect.
1) A "Choke bomb" needs 1 Nightuser to Choke, and at least one other to hinder (which can still be ineffective, because of things like Tumble). Otherwise the target escapes.
2) "choke their target down and either pinleg them, pfifth them, Hold them, etc and the target is dead." None of these actually kill the target. At least one other round of attacks is needed to kill the target.
3) "Also please remember that without Ectoplasm on the target, the target can writhe off before the Necromancer even regains eq to take advantage of it." Similarly, a Choke target can move before the Nightuser regains eq. As Crucify needs Ectoplasm, so does Choke need a hinderer (or two).
4) "A simple novice with the Night skill can be standing in his group and be told to Choke the biggest threat in the enemy group." If the enemy group is smart enough to take out the simple novice first, then the threat is out. Choke is two-way. And yes, the Choke user group has the advantage of being able to know when to drop Choke, but honestly the target group should be smart enough to know when, too. There's already a message for it for the whole room to see. When a target is being targetted assume always that he will be choked, at which point you must be poised to pound on the Choke user.
1) Yeah, sure, although I don't even think you need the hinder. Smart people will immediately try to tumble out of choke if the odds are stacked against them, which is 5s before they leave the room, minimum. For most people, that --is- to rounds of attack in which the entire group can swing away without their target sipping, etc.
2 - 3) I can agree with this, but making them out to be equally bad is misleading. Crucify needs ectoplasm (2 skills from 1 nihilist) to get really powerful. Choke, on the other hand, doesn't need 2 skills from any 1 person, but that can be diffused to others.
4) You're wrongfully assuming that there's only ever 1 choker, and the "choke is two-way" argument doesn't make it fair. It does make the choker a better target, but just as people can gust the choked person out of the room, so can allies gust/squall their chokers. Simply put, three novices spamming choke would have a much -greater- effect than three spamming crucify. The crucify-brigade won't be spamming, one, and two, crucify in and of itself can be ignored. It takes group hindering to make it effective long enough to get a single kill, so 3 of of them at once is counter productive. However, 3 chokes at once, which is more spammable, might not secure 3 kills, but less hindering is needed per target to keep them in place.
Unknown2011-10-15 16:53:07
Right there, you admit that they're not the same. "Which with 3-4 able Aeoners in a room...." I don't care about that. Choke doesn't need "3-4 able able Aeoners in a room" to be deadly. I can take one other person to make it deadly, and if we're discussing group damage potential, choke requires less hindering to get the bomb effect.
1) Yeah, sure, although I don't even think you need the hinder. Smart people will immediately try to tumble out of choke if the odds are stacked against them, which is 5s before they leave the room, minimum. For most people, that --is- to rounds of attack in which the entire group can swing away without their target sipping, etc.
Why would their target stop sipping/curing while he's tumbling?
2) I can agree with this, but making them out to be equally bad is misleading. Crucify needs ectoplasm (2 skills from 1 nihilist) to get really powerful. Choke, on the other hand, doesn't need 2 skills from any 1 person, but that can be diffused to others.
Crucify needs 2 Necromancers to Choke's 1 Night user and 1 hinderer (bard, monk, whatever). Looks a bit equal.
4) You're wrongfully assuming that there's only ever 1 choker, and the "choke is two-way" argument doesn't make it fair. It does make the choker a better target, but just as people can gust the choked person out of the room, so can allies gust/squall their chokers. Simply put, three novices spamming choke would have a much -greater- effect than three spamming crucify. The crucify-brigade won't be spamming, one, and two, crucify in and of itself can be ignored. It takes group hindering to make it effective long enough to get a single kill, so 3 of of them at once is counter productive. However, 3 chokes at once, which is more spammable, might not secure 3 kills, but less hindering is needed per target to keep them in place.
This is what I do not get. Choke does not stack, so 3 novices spamming it is actually kind of a waste. It also takes hindering to make Choke effective/stick, and yes, people do get out of Choke in group-group fights, so a claim that it's "instant inescapable death" is void.
Unknown2011-10-15 17:10:17
Crucify needs 2 Necromancers to Choke's 1 Night user and 1 hinderer (bard, monk, whatever). Looks a bit equal.
...Crucify+Ectoplasm is also nine power and requires two people of the same Org, and only two guilds within that org. Choke is 3 power and requires one hinderer of virtually any archetype in any org. That is NOT equal and you cannot construe it as such.
Unknown2011-10-15 17:12:30
This is what I do not get. Choke does not stack, so 3 novices spamming it is actually kind of a waste. It also takes hindering to make Choke effective/stick, and yes, people do get out of Choke in group-group fights, so a claim that it's "instant inescapable death" is void.
This is obviouly not what he was arguing. He is arguing that three Night using novices in a group can inhibit three otherwise powerful fighter and allows them to be ganked quite reliably.
Unknown2011-10-15 17:21:15
Can we talk about choke vs. crucify somewhere else and go back to talk about just choke instead.
Malarious2011-10-16 05:18:31
The non choker can walk out and gust the victim back in, as I have shown in every wargames I have a choker with me. As to choke itself, I still like the idea of effects that face based on the number of people.
Whats the say, top 3 ideas so far?
1) Reduce delay on choke based on number of people.
2) Delay all attacks against choked people
3) Give it a cure?
Someone list them for me? I aint sure.
Whats the say, top 3 ideas so far?
1) Reduce delay on choke based on number of people.
2) Delay all attacks against choked people
3) Give it a cure?
Someone list them for me? I aint sure.
Rivius2011-10-16 18:17:40
By the way, if you put it as a focus spirit cure, you could use beast cure spirit to circumvent the mana cost.
Unknown2011-10-16 19:00:59
That's an excellent point and I've noted it down.
In other news, choke has been voted as one of the top major imbalances, so I'll be summarizing the problems and solutions given in the next post. Or in a mighty edit.
In other news, choke has been voted as one of the top major imbalances, so I'll be summarizing the problems and solutions given in the next post. Or in a mighty edit.
Unknown2011-10-18 19:20:08
Well, now it's official, let's talk about choke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem: Night choke is unbalancing to group combat, given that it forces the victim to immediately leave or else die, but it's very difficult to do so given that it's group combat. Being able to "choke chase" does not help.
Proposed Solutions:
Related to Dropping Choke:
1. Double the balance time of cauldron release.
2. Have choke only be done by the person who dropped shadows
a. Allow shadows to be redropped in the room to allow the person who can choke to change hands, so to speak
3. Have choke only be done if the SD has stolen the victim's shadow
a. Possibly have it consume the shadow upon choking, to require the SD to resteal.
4. Add a delay between casting choke and the choke effect itself, something to the effect of 3-5s.
a. Separation between the caster/victim at any point will end the effect eventually as right now.
5. Have quicksilver block a choke, but then have it stripped upon doing so (like with aeon)
a. choking itself may require a shorter balance when doing so.
Choke Itself:
-Eliminate choke chasing.
I. Change it back to room choke
1. Have it become room wide again, but require no target
a. Have it also slow down room effects (ents are impossible)
2. Return it back to room choke, but have the delay shorten the more people there are in the room
3. Have it become room wide again, but require a target
a. Separation will still end the effect
II. Keep it to single target
1. All attacks on the victim (even those nonchoked) should be delayed as well
a. Have it also slow down room effects
2. Keep it single target, but have it become contagious, whoever hits the choked gets choked themselves.
3. Keep it single target, but have it put up a 'prismatic' choke aura around the caster/victim, letting no one else but them hit each other.
Potential Choke Cures:
1. Focus spirit
a. Have it cure choke with 100% accuracy
b. Beast cure spirit will cure it as well
2. Cleanse
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am personally in favour of extending cauldron release time, adding a delay between dropping choking and the effect itself -and- giving it a focus spirit cure. These three changes should more accomplish what we set out to do: reduce choke's effect on group combat without completely changing it.
Let me know what you guys think or if you have any other ideas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem: Night choke is unbalancing to group combat, given that it forces the victim to immediately leave or else die, but it's very difficult to do so given that it's group combat. Being able to "choke chase" does not help.
Proposed Solutions:
Related to Dropping Choke:
1. Double the balance time of cauldron release.
2. Have choke only be done by the person who dropped shadows
a. Allow shadows to be redropped in the room to allow the person who can choke to change hands, so to speak
3. Have choke only be done if the SD has stolen the victim's shadow
a. Possibly have it consume the shadow upon choking, to require the SD to resteal.
4. Add a delay between casting choke and the choke effect itself, something to the effect of 3-5s.
a. Separation between the caster/victim at any point will end the effect eventually as right now.
5. Have quicksilver block a choke, but then have it stripped upon doing so (like with aeon)
a. choking itself may require a shorter balance when doing so.
Choke Itself:
-Eliminate choke chasing.
I. Change it back to room choke
1. Have it become room wide again, but require no target
a. Have it also slow down room effects (ents are impossible)
2. Return it back to room choke, but have the delay shorten the more people there are in the room
3. Have it become room wide again, but require a target
a. Separation will still end the effect
II. Keep it to single target
1. All attacks on the victim (even those nonchoked) should be delayed as well
a. Have it also slow down room effects
2. Keep it single target, but have it become contagious, whoever hits the choked gets choked themselves.
3. Keep it single target, but have it put up a 'prismatic' choke aura around the caster/victim, letting no one else but them hit each other.
Potential Choke Cures:
1. Focus spirit
a. Have it cure choke with 100% accuracy
b. Beast cure spirit will cure it as well
2. Cleanse
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am personally in favour of extending cauldron release time, adding a delay between dropping choking and the effect itself -and- giving it a focus spirit cure. These three changes should more accomplish what we set out to do: reduce choke's effect on group combat without completely changing it.
Let me know what you guys think or if you have any other ideas.
Unknown2011-10-19 14:52:31
Double the balance time of cauldron release.
+
Add a delay between casting choke and the choke effect itself, something to the effect of 3-5s. Separation between the caster/victim at any point will end the effect eventually as right now.
+
Eliminate choke chasing.
+
Focus spirit. Have it cure choke with 100% accuracy
Has my vote.
+
Add a delay between casting choke and the choke effect itself, something to the effect of 3-5s. Separation between the caster/victim at any point will end the effect eventually as right now.
+
Eliminate choke chasing.
+
Focus spirit. Have it cure choke with 100% accuracy
Has my vote.
Sidd2011-10-19 15:36:46
I think if you're going to add a cure in for choke, especially a focus spirit with 100% chance to cure, then you need to leave choke-chasing be.
The only reason eliminating choke-chasing was brought up was because people were complaining about the difficulty of curing choke by leaving the room, thus eliminating choke-chasing was brought up to compromise on making it easier to cure. (ie: you tumble, are gusted, moved in any way shape or form = no longer choked)
It needs to be one or the other, either get rid of choke-chasing or let it be cured by focus spirit (100% accuracy).
I'm more a fan of eliminating choke-chasing over adding in an in-room cure. It sticks with the original idea behind choke but makes it easy to cure. I really don't think it's too much to ask for a group to be proactive about someone being choked with group announces, and taking action to help your buddy. I don't view it any different as having a group announce to ask for a web on a decap or judge or being chasmed (with blind/peace etc.)
I know I know, you think I'm bias because I'm on the choke-team, but I think focus-spirit cure will make it pretty useless 1v1. I think it's a no brainer to spend 25% mana to be able to sip/sparkle/scroll right away to cure that mana back up (beast heal too!), and waste 3p of the choker.
As far as extending time on cauldrons, I'm ok with that, I feel it's like the 'squall costing power' argument. It doesn't really accomplish anything other than getting a personal victory. It won't really change a thing about choke.
The only reason eliminating choke-chasing was brought up was because people were complaining about the difficulty of curing choke by leaving the room, thus eliminating choke-chasing was brought up to compromise on making it easier to cure. (ie: you tumble, are gusted, moved in any way shape or form = no longer choked)
It needs to be one or the other, either get rid of choke-chasing or let it be cured by focus spirit (100% accuracy).
I'm more a fan of eliminating choke-chasing over adding in an in-room cure. It sticks with the original idea behind choke but makes it easy to cure. I really don't think it's too much to ask for a group to be proactive about someone being choked with group announces, and taking action to help your buddy. I don't view it any different as having a group announce to ask for a web on a decap or judge or being chasmed (with blind/peace etc.)
I know I know, you think I'm bias because I'm on the choke-team, but I think focus-spirit cure will make it pretty useless 1v1. I think it's a no brainer to spend 25% mana to be able to sip/sparkle/scroll right away to cure that mana back up (beast heal too!), and waste 3p of the choker.
As far as extending time on cauldrons, I'm ok with that, I feel it's like the 'squall costing power' argument. It doesn't really accomplish anything other than getting a personal victory. It won't really change a thing about choke.
Turnus2011-10-19 16:41:29
I agree that longer eq time to release shadows won't make any difference at all. Esp in group fights where shadows are either prereleased or one person releases and the other chokes.
Unknown2011-10-19 19:08:09
I regretted barking up this tree last time, but I think that group combat is what keeps choke from being balanced. Choke aka retardation was always one of my favorite mechanics in the game because it completely changes the way PvP is done and can make a 1v1 fight that would otherwise last a long time come to a close. But in large team fights it becomes almost impossible to balance.
I would personally accept something extreme such as, choke wraps the two combatants in shadow and they can only be damaged by each other while it's active, and otherwise it continues to work in the same way.
I would personally accept something extreme such as, choke wraps the two combatants in shadow and they can only be damaged by each other while it's active, and otherwise it continues to work in the same way.
Unknown2011-10-19 19:16:45
Problems with that are pretty extensive, as explored earlier in this thread.
For instance, two SDs could easily choke each other, then point their fae at others in the room.
For instance, two SDs could easily choke each other, then point their fae at others in the room.
Unknown2011-10-19 19:21:02
That's a pretty ineffectual tactic, who in their right mind would take out two of their fighters just to do that. Also, fae aren't exactly super strong.
Vadi2011-10-19 19:26:45
It seems some people aren't taking into consideration that some terts of SDs, like Healers, due to their group utility aspect, really don't have a lot going for them in 1v1 except Choke and skill in operating in it (their skills are inferior to others, ie monks/warriors/melders, who don't have choke but are great in 1v1 for skills).
By adding no chasing and having focus spirit cure choke with 100% accuracy, it'll mean that someone can tumble out for 0p with no damage done to them and not be chokable for 24s (or so? whatever the time is to recover 3p)? Since the SDs instakill requires 8p to use and 3p is occupied with Choke.
So while it's nice to suggest the most possibly ridiculous combination, destroying SDs for 1v1 isn't quite so. There is a fair bit of SD healers around too; currently there are barely any combat Hexers or Astrologers.
Focus spirit would be enough of a deterrent since, if unlike walking out of the room having 1s delay, it'll presumably be instant - allowing for someone to sip mana / scroll / sparkle to way above 25% of their mana in a go, won't really kill you if you get choked at 100% mana. Even if you had less mana, a Choke would save you - since the action kills an SDs balance for 5 seconds, a Choke at any amount of mana would be really awesome for you because you'd kill their eq for 5s, cure it (la la la, since you'd have more than 25% mana to cure it, and people are proposing that it's insant), walk out, far away, and easily heal your mana while the SDs is sitting there not being able to do a thing. So this essentially kills Choke for 1v1, has anyone thought of that?
That's my 2c.
By adding no chasing and having focus spirit cure choke with 100% accuracy, it'll mean that someone can tumble out for 0p with no damage done to them and not be chokable for 24s (or so? whatever the time is to recover 3p)? Since the SDs instakill requires 8p to use and 3p is occupied with Choke.
So while it's nice to suggest the most possibly ridiculous combination, destroying SDs for 1v1 isn't quite so. There is a fair bit of SD healers around too; currently there are barely any combat Hexers or Astrologers.
Focus spirit would be enough of a deterrent since, if unlike walking out of the room having 1s delay, it'll presumably be instant - allowing for someone to sip mana / scroll / sparkle to way above 25% of their mana in a go, won't really kill you if you get choked at 100% mana. Even if you had less mana, a Choke would save you - since the action kills an SDs balance for 5 seconds, a Choke at any amount of mana would be really awesome for you because you'd kill their eq for 5s, cure it (la la la, since you'd have more than 25% mana to cure it, and people are proposing that it's insant), walk out, far away, and easily heal your mana while the SDs is sitting there not being able to do a thing. So this essentially kills Choke for 1v1, has anyone thought of that?
That's my 2c.
Shryke2011-10-19 20:15:38
2-3 second delay between casting choke and choke landing seems fair.
Change and balance from there.
-Lurking Ciaran
Change and balance from there.
-Lurking Ciaran
Turnus2011-10-19 21:06:09
foolofsound:
Problems with that are pretty extensive, as explored earlier in this thread.
For instance, two SDs could easily choke each other, then point their fae at others in the room.
I would worry more about them choking a druid, hello invincible melds.
Edit at Vadi: I didn't read your post before adding mine. But that's why I said adding stealing shadows that are consumed as a prereq for choking. Balancing can be done by adding a mechanic similar to how "rub death" works if that's not enough for balancing group combat, 1v1 you can just get the shadowsteal and any "rubs" from the start and not affect when you choke one bit.
Edit2: And I'll stop being a broken record and repeating this now :P
