No, not going to delete choke, please stop suggesting it and asking for a complete overhaul of aeon effects. While it would be...interesting, shall we speak, I'm sure it would be a coding nightmare.

@Vadi: Unfortunately, you ignored responses (something about reading everything?) that cleanse on yourself only is a better solution on cleanse on others only because from my experience with a aeon effect that's cleanse cured, moving yourself (via tumble) is easier then cleansing yourself (except via hyperhydrosis).

I'm pointing out that condescending to everyone and alienating other people (Which is what I'm getting out of this, and what other people have told me they are getting out of it, please try to argue that I'm not feeling what I'm feeling.) who are bringing ideas to the table is the worst way to get things done. At this point, I'm going to give up and not participate any more. /shrug

Ehhh, I'd advise against not participating.

Of course choke is a hot topic near and dear to many people's hearts, so naturally, everyone has a differing (and obviously STRONG) opinion about it. While I'm sure everyone could use a bit of tact and could calm down, it is definitely not the intent of this thread to drive out people with an honest desire for things to be balanced.

So come back :(

I don't really understand why you can say that leaving a room is easier to cure than rubbing cleanse, yet it's been stated numerous times that ' it's impossible to leave the room when you're choked.' You can't sit here and say it's impossible to leave, then say 'well it's easier to leave than cleanse, but I'm still a fan of cleansing.'

To be fair, I definitely agree with you, -in groups-. Leaving the room would be easier than cleansing (not counting 3rd person cleansing). What cleansing does, is make choke from being able to be dealed with in 1v1, to making it laughable in 1v1, The SD would have to focus purely on keeping you asleep, the entire time because if you get up, you can cleanse, if you get a tumble, you're cured too. The warrior would have to time things perfectly to chase AND keep you prone, one mis-step and you're cured. It's a better solution than focus spirit, but I don't think it's an ideal situation. It's just sap+ at that point except with a movement cure too.

I am not doing an effort to ignore everything, and I cannot understand how are you still claiming that after I gave proof that was agreeing with ideas in this thread.

I'm sorry, but if I didn't post in regards to your single idea, it does not mean I'm ignoring everything. It simply hasn't had enough support, most likely, to be answered. There were umpteen silly ideas in these thread, only ones that actually take some hold are worth looking at.

Currently trying for the simple approach now, given Ciaran's post:

-Add a delay between casting choke and the effect taking place, 4s, where it will be obvious who the caster and victim are. It will cost 0p to start, but it will take 3p upon success. Separation between caster and victim here will break the effect as with the current choke. Have it check for shield when it is cast and when it takes effect, a shield at any point will block it.

Ex: The shadows begin whirling around Alacardael and Akui, 4s later, CHOKE MESSAGE HERE.

-Reduce choke balance to a flat, unmodifiable 3-3.5s (currently 4-5s).

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This idea attempts to maintain the idea that choke is fine 1v1 / small groups but groups is where the issue lies, given that the 'defenders' do not have much time to prepare since choke is pretty much instant and can happen in any time. This solution addresses that by adding a 4s delay that people can highlight and prepare for so they can get ready to gust/headbutt/mountkick/blah their friend away. Furthermore, checking for shield at both ticks means that sprinkling salt around your buddy also becomes a viable way to protect them from said choke.

I also have an idea that anyone choking would take out the bonds effect in the room as well, but I'm not totally sold on whether it's needed still.

Let me know what you guys think.

Does the power not get consumed unless it actually finishes, under this suggestion?

Sure

Crap I got it! Have it check for shield on the actual choke too. Solved

I like the idea of the delay and shield, and I think with the delay it would give someone ample time to get the message they need to get out fast or shield (shielding resulting in someone stripping it in groups also but still good).

I also would like to mention I still think a way to disperse shadows is needed. It is very frustrating to be walking in your area with shadows everywhere and unable to do anything about it. Not to mention you are seeing SD ammo all around you that can be used instantly for abilities. I have seen Night users constantly produce shadow after shadow from their cauldron as if it is barely any work. I think either Ignite enchantment, Gust enchantment should remove shadows (if the Night user is not in the room?).

Also is the Focus Spirit cure out of the window or not?

Arcanis:

I like the idea of the delay and shield, and I think with the delay it would give someone ample time to get the message they need to get out fast or shield (shielding resulting in someone stripping it in groups also but still good).

I also would like to mention I still think a way to disperse shadows is needed. It is very frustrating to be walking in your area with shadows everywhere and unable to do anything about it. Not to mention you are seeing SD ammo all around you that can be used instantly for abilities. I have seen Night users constantly produce shadow after shadow from their cauldron as if it is barely any work. I think either Ignite enchantment, Gust enchantment should remove shadows (if the Night user is not in the room?).

Also is the Focus Spirit cure out of the window or not?

Shadows are limited in quantity, certain abilities consume them beyond just releasing, and once they're out they're out. They cannot be easily replaced during a fight.

No. No need to remove the things. They don't even cause any damage to you when they are released.

That's kind of like saying "You can run out of pennyroyal during a fight". The number of shadows you can hold is far greater than you could reasonably use in a single fight as long as you come prepared. While they may not damage us directly, they do go a long way in preventing many kill strategies. Passive affliction curing really hurts many guilds, and normally it comes at a higher cost than .5 power.

Not to mention Night users walking around in your territory with passive healing and curing thanks to DRINK since they released shadows that cannot be dispersed is not the greatest of thoughts. Also that a night user can pop in at any time and choke you with no pre-request to release shadows first (since they had done so beforehand). I think simply a way to dispel shadows with perhaps ignite enchantment if the Night user is NOT in the room is rather fair in exchange. It also will not affect anything with the current combat setup since the shadows can not be dispersed if the night user is in the room.

Also I would like to add that Choke only being able to be used by the Night user that released the shadows would also be a fair setup. This way we would not have to handle multiple important targets in our group being choked down while those in the choking group take them out. Having shadows recast to replace the current shadows is also a good idea in this scenerio. OR to take the other option that choking uses the shadows in the room, added with the longer eq recovery to releasing shadows again (which I think is easier to just code up)

P.S: I know some Night users have it setup as a script/trigger to immediately release shadows again the second they disperse over time/are utilized and it doesnt push them off track whatsoever :/

Arcanis:

Not to mention Night users walking around in your territory with passive healing and curing thanks to DRINK since they released shadows that cannot be dispersed is not the greatest of thoughts. Also that a night user can pop in at any time and choke you with no pre-request to release shadows first (since they had done so beforehand). I think simply a way to dispel shadows with perhaps ignite enchantment if the Night user is NOT in the room is rather fair in exchange. It also will not affect anything with the current combat setup since the shadows can not be dispersed if the night user is in the room.

If you want to give a way to disperse shadows, then it needs to stop costing power to collect them and make them last until they are dispersed (again, restricting dispersing when a nightuser is in the room and if some skill is being used with them (bonds, brumetower etc).

They are a limited resource, the pennyroyal argument falls flat because from the get-go you can store up to 2000 of them, not only 100 and none of your offense is dependent on pennyroyal. I don't really understand why you feel the need to disperse them, they may help the night user (which whose fault is it for letting them prepare an area ahead of time?), but they don't hurt you in the slightest.
This is another 'mental victory' argument I think. You feel cool for getting it changed, but it really accomplishes nothing.

Because it costs no power to terraform for a demesne, or cast persistent room illusions which can be dispelled for fre- oh wait.

Your argument fails because power is not a resource which is conserved elsewhere in the game. People burn power all the time, and some guilds, most notably the melders, have wasting power to change an area back and forth as one of their most important group functions. Earlier in this discussion people said that the limit of shadows was closer to two hundred or three hundred, but even so, one hundred is still plenty for a fight unless you go through them WAY more quickly than my reading of your skills suggests you should. Honestly, this 'attrition' mechanic already exists many places in offence, so I see no problem with including it here. Holylight, flesh, gems, even regular boring power are all resources which can "run out" mid-fight and are consumed at a fairly steady rate. If the problem is that there aren't enough shadows to do this, then that's a problem that can easily be solved by upping the cap on the cauldron.

We have already addressed how they 'hurt' the opponent - if your passive affliction curing stops me from killing you (especially while you have me choked and are continuing to benefit from this curing while I am forced to cure through aeon), then your shadows have hurt my chances of winning the fight. Furthermore, your shadows open up many of your strongest abilities, abilities which are balanced around the fact that shadows need to be in the room and made more powerful because of this requirement. However, without a means to dispel shadows this balancing point is overvalued, because there are only so many rooms in an area in which to run away from the shadows as combatants are forced to do now.

Rathan:

Because it costs no power to terraform for a demesne, or cast persistent room illusions which can be dispelled for fre- oh wait.

Your argument fails because power is not a resource which is conserved elsewhere in the game. People burn power all the time, and some guilds, most notably the melders, have wasting power to change an area back and forth as one of their most important group functions. Earlier in this discussion people said that the limit of shadows was closer to two hundred or three hundred, but even so, one hundred is still plenty for a fight unless you go through them WAY more quickly than my reading of your skills suggests you should. Honestly, this 'attrition' mechanic already exists many places in offence, so I see no problem with including it here. Holylight, flesh, gems, even regular boring power are all resources which can "run out" mid-fight and are consumed at a fairly steady rate. If the problem is that there aren't enough shadows to do this, then that's a problem that can easily be solved by upping the cap on the cauldron.

We have already addressed how they 'hurt' the opponent - if your passive affliction curing stops me from killing you (especially while you have me choked and are continuing to benefit from this curing while I am forced to cure through aeon), then your shadows have hurt my chances of winning the fight. Furthermore, your shadows open up many of your strongest abilities, abilities which are balanced around the fact that shadows need to be in the room and made more powerful because of this requirement. However, without a means to dispel shadows this balancing point is overvalued, because there are only so many rooms in an area in which to run away from the shadows as combatants are forced to do now.

So you're pretty much saying you want a way to stop our most powerful abilities with a simple gust? You don't think that seems too much?

Melds actually directly affect you, and have mechanics in place to protect them from being changed. We've already had this argument. Programmed illusions actually don't, they do nothing to you, my concern with them is spam more than anything else ( and people can dispel them for free, not everyone, but some).

The limit to shadows is 102, no more, anything else said is false. We don't go through them quickly because they last 10mins and can't be dispelled, making them easily dispelled would change that extremely quickly. I don't really think it's unfair to ask to compensation to making them easily dispelled by not requireing power to collect, if it doesn't matter that it does cost power, it shouldn't matter to you if that changes to not costing power. Easier to get rid of, easier to collect. Since our most powerful abilities are tied into shadows, it only makes sense that a nightuser or associated skills on those shadows, should prevent shadows from being gusted away like contagion currently is.


Edit: oh and gems, flesh, herbs, most other 'expendable resources' can be replaced pretty much whenever, you run out, run to guildshop/regularshop/ship etc and refill, shadows can only be collected at night on prime and take balance for each 2 shadows collected.

Ah, I was not aware of your argument that you would accept this gust change if shadows were free to collect. I'm honestly fine with that solution, since from my time in the Institute I know how annoying it is to have to spend resources to collect something necessary to use a large chunk of your skills. You get to harvest shadows for free (and I'd even say yes to allowing you to sell them in your guildshop), and we get to gust then out of the room when you are not present, then?

(So you know though, when I was in Institute the guildshop was usually out of a few, so I had to do it the long way of buying gems from a Jeweler, then going through the process on Cosmic of cultivating and harvesting empowered gems)

I just wanted to throw in that shadows do NOT do anything. If you have a problem with drink, then your problem is with drink. This is like saying I have a problem with taint before it stuns me. It doesnt without something else. Shadows are a pre-req/cost but they are not a skill of any value unless you use a different skill.

If that 0.5 power cost per a shadow is really that huge a difference in balancing (its not), then make it free. I don't really care, its a silly reason to not look at certain balance aspects.

Malarious:

I just wanted to throw in that shadows do NOT do anything. If you have a problem with drink, then your problem is with drink. This is like saying I have a problem with taint before it stuns me. It doesnt without something else. Shadows are a pre-req/cost but they are not a skill of any value unless you use a different skill.

This may be outdated but....

Cauldron
Syntax: CAULDRON CREATE
CAULDRON CALL
CAULDRON GATHER
CAULDRON RELEASE
Power: 3 (Master Ravenwood) (to gather)
10 (Master Ravenwood) (to create)
As a Shadowdancer, you should always be prepared to have shadows ready at your call. First, you must have a cauldron created to store your precious shadows, which must be gathered at night under the open sky. Releasing a shadow in your location will prevent regenerating abilities of all except followers of Mother Night or Crow.