By that argument Malarious, then FORESTCAST FOREST should not have a counter because making ethereal forest by itself does not do anything. Sure, it allows a druid to meld and set up a demense, but the skill itself is just trees.

EDIT: Foolofsound - according to, I think it was Alacardael, that part is indeed outdated.

foolofsound:


This may be outdated but....

Cauldron
Syntax: CAULDRON CREATE
CAULDRON CALL
CAULDRON GATHER
CAULDRON RELEASE
Power: 3 (Master Ravenwood) (to gather)
10 (Master Ravenwood) (to create)
As a Shadowdancer, you should always be prepared to have shadows ready at your call. First, you must have a cauldron created to store your precious shadows, which must be gathered at night under the open sky. Releasing a shadow in your location will prevent regenerating abilities of all except followers of Mother Night or Crow.

This is outdated, it was already mentioned earlier in this thread. Don't make me dig out the announce post!

RE: Shadows - they really don't do anything offensive unlike contagion, gas, and similar effects which may be gusted away. All they do is allow the night user access to use the rest of his skills.

Think of it this way - If the shadows mechanic were completely dropped and all night abilities can just be done for x power, would anything change in their offense?

And really, shadows as a mechanic are not related to this part of the report, they're only relevant in relation to choke, please keep that in mind. A way to dispel shadows can be envoyed.

P.S. How about that last choke idea, I really like that one because I thought of it after some drinking.

Sojiro:
A way to dispel shadows can be envoyed.

While in theory this is true, in practice multiple very reasonable attempts to do this have been shot down by frenzied arguments of members of Glomdoring, despite the fact that they are seemingly amicable to it in this discussion. It may be outside of the scope that this thread was originally created to examine, but I feel compelled to point out that, as project coordinator, you have complete control over the bounds of this discussion. Though the original idea was discussing choke, there is apparently a large contingent of people who feel that the inability to dispel shadows is a large part of the problem, not just with choke, but with balancing this skill in general. However, I will defer to your judgement, for you were elected by the people here to decide what is and is not included in the report.

Sojiro:

P.S. How about that last choke idea, I really like that one because I thought of it after some drinking.

Like

Shryke, the new forums actually have a 'like' button now.

Anyway, Night abilities are more tied to one another than Moon's are primarily because of shadows (around which Night basically revolves around). If we're going to do something with shadows (something as big as making them dispell-able), then we really have to take into account the whole of the Night skill, which will probably take a lot more than just changing Choke itself.

Not that I'm overly opposed to a re-work of Night as a whole. Woo sweeping changes.

Woo sweeping changes.

Dislike!
4 second delay with room wide message. Shield stops choke landing. Shadows issues are annoying but not imbalanced. Start here!

Gust or ignite sound like horrible ideas for how to get rid of shadows. Those are cheap enchantments that everyone has. An ability to dispel shadows would only make sense (to me) coming from a Moon user (or Sun user, we can dream).

As far as shadows costing power while being able to be dispelled, I see no reason why not. My dreamweaving motes cost one power each, and it's fairly easy to waste those. If they're embedded in a room that gets broken, or I don't keep up with puncturing properly, or I just flick memoryloss over and over and over, that all uses up motes. So I don't think the power cost would need to be removed if shadows can be dispelled. I don't think they should be particularly easy to dispel, though.

Why not make trueground get rid of shadows? *greatidea*

I agree, in fact I almost suggested the same thing. To avoid the problem of shadows becoming another layer of defence for melds, give it an optional syntax similar to the way you can use violet/kether on gems by including extra words.

Syntax: TRUEGROUND

If you use trueground by itself it keeps it's current functionality, but if you use shadows it instead dispels shadows. This way, the opponent would almost certainly be using power more quickly than the Shadowdancer, but it at least gives a strategy for dispelling them.

Conversely, if like Lilia says it needs to be a Moon specific fix, either a) rewrite the currently unused Light skill to do it, or B) tack it on to Wicca BROOMSWEEP, which would allow Shadowdancers (and Riverdancers/Sundancers if they ever come out) a way to dispel shadows too.

Sorry, won't address shadows unless they're related to choke.

Just think, if you were to do that, you would have to analyze the mechanic of gathering them, releasing them, then altering whatever proposed skills to dispel them. Then it will lead to a whole other argument about whether the power cost (or lack of them) would be enough. Just can't win.

As Sidd said, I'm inclined to think that many people simply want this for the mental victory.

I'm going to have to agree on this, not because I don't feel that it is a problem, but instead because I feel that is is a much smaller problem than Choke itself. Choke is already our most contentious topic; I would prefer we concentrate on finding a solution to it before we move on to anything else.

There are other passive heals in the game... why would you want to attack shadows, which is an attack on drink, choke, bonds? It was not anywhere near Choke.

There's no need to destroy the whole Night skillset once something was decided with Choke, which'll already make 1v1 bad enough (that is, unless you're the classic sleep Hexer vs really dumb opponent who thinks that strat is uncounterable).

I think you are greatly overestimating the degree to which people will utilize any shadow-destroying mechanic. If it were implemented, it would get used about as much as people attack ents now. In other words, except in rare situations it would probably be ignored even when it could be beneficial, except when the threat has already left the area and people find shadows left scattered around. Furthermore, I think you are overstating the effect that dispersing shadows would have on your offence - yes, it also attacks drink, that was one of the big points, given drinks effect in choke (one of the oft-ignored reasons that choke is still so beneficial for the choker despite the fact that it aeons both him and the target). When it costs only .5 power and 1 second of equilibrium to re-raise shadows, I really cannot sympathize with you when you say it would destroy your entire skill synergy, especially since both the equilibrium time and power cost on trueground are far larger.

Rathan:

I think you are greatly overestimating the degree to which people will utilize any shadow-destroying mechanic. If it were implemented, it would get used about as much as people attack ents now. In other words, except in rare situations it would probably be ignored even when it could be beneficial, except when the threat has already left the area and people find shadows left scattered around. Furthermore, I think you are overstating the effect that dispersing shadows would have on your offence - yes, it also attacks drink, that was one of the big points, given drinks effect in choke (one of the oft-ignored reasons that choke is still so beneficial for the choker despite the fact that it aeons both him and the target). When it costs only .5 power and 1 second of equilibrium to re-raise shadows, I really cannot sympathize with you when you say it would destroy your entire skill synergy, especially since both the equilibrium time and power cost on trueground are far larger.

comparing shadows to ents is pretty off, with channels you can recall fae instantly, while it still takes balance to re-release. You can bet your sweet ass I would dispel shadows if I was fighting a night user. I know people that run the second shadows are released because they're afraid of what's coming after.

When you have to consider the balance of shadows, you can't argue that 'it probably wouldn't be used.' That's just silly, if that's the case, why implement it at all? They dispell on their own after some time (oh another reason why foresting and shadows can't really be compared, 1p for foresting means that room stays forested UNTIL it's changed, it doesn't fade on it's own.).

Yeah.... removing shadows wouldn't shut down SD's or Night warriors especially if it wasn't possible while the caster is still in the room. Things like choke continue out of shadows, dispelling shadows probably wouldn't stop it. By the same token, brume would still be hard to drop in the only place the popular reason for them existing says they should be, to stop people from knocking you into the sky. No more leaving them at strategic choke points so that people have to walk into springtraps! Well, more specifically, it would only work once and would cost a shadow each time. The balance of shadows is tiny, and it's been pointed out that you can have another person do it. I do not think this would. It also isn't terribly important for choke, because choke (stupidly?) continues out of shadowed rooms.

Seriously? You can only gather Shadows at night, in Prime territory, with a balance penalty, and there is a cap of 102 maximum.

You are comparing this to resources of which you can have thousands (herbs / gems) or which you can replenish instantly (go to a ship and funnel power or go to aethershops), at any time.

And you want a way to make this resource vanish even faster when it doesn't even do anything to you.

Further, you want a 2p ability be able to wipe out multiple other abilities that cost more power and / or time to cast along with having a prerequisite of released shadows, and you don't see a problem here?

Right it isn't terribly important, because people highly overestimate the ability of just plain shadows sitting around, it's all for the mental victory, 'lets nerf shadows for no considertable gain, muhaha'

Lilia:

Gust or ignite sound like horrible ideas for how to get rid of shadows. Those are cheap enchantments that everyone has. An ability to dispel shadows would only make sense (to me) coming from a Moon user (or Sun user, we can dream).

As far as shadows costing power while being able to be dispelled, I see no reason why not. My dreamweaving motes cost one power each, and it's fairly easy to waste those. If they're embedded in a room that gets broken, or I don't keep up with puncturing properly, or I just flick memoryloss over and over and over, that all uses up motes. So I don't think the power cost would need to be removed if shadows can be dispelled. I don't think they should be particularly easy to dispel, though.

Even if moondancers are the direct opposing guild of the Shadowdancers giving them the sole ability to do something to hinder a shadowdancer is a very very bad idea. You see at one point it is entirely possible that Serenwilde and Glomdoring become allies and then the opposing team has nothing.

Though I really see no need for being able to dispell shadows. If you have a problem with drink then envoy drink.

The Shuyin idea has merit, also I approve of the method of how it came to him.

Yep, again, shadows are not relevant to this discussion unless it deals with choke.

Shadows being spread everywhere is an annoyance that can be envoyed if you really want it, not a major imbalance. While I can certainly sympathize with being able to gust shadows away if a night user is not in the room, that isn't within the scope of this report.

I've also taken the liberty of doing a quick scan of all moon and night reports, and shadows were brought up exactly once, in a buff to Moon. There have been no other reports regarding shadows in general, it has mostly been choke/brumetower related, so I'm going to have to reject the claim that 'numerous reports' about shadows have been made.

I was fighting Prav (good combatant from Achaea, and he was here as well - best one Hallifax has had in terms of strategies and leading, even today) some time ago 1v1 and Choke or not - we tied, and flipped a coin to end it.

To respond to this, I think more than any other skill, Choke requires one to react manually to the situation at hand. You can't depend on anything to cure it for you; in fact, 75% of the time the solution isn't to fight for the win in it, but to fight to escape from it.

Because of that unique aspect of it - that is, that its solution lies in un-automated player response - I think it should stay generally the same.

The problem with Choke has never really been 1v1, but in groups where one person gets choked, killed by group, then they move to next target. This isn't bad though, because it encourages groups to communicate, pay attention and manually respond to the threats presented.

To that end, I think a solution that addresses the major group instagib aspects wouldn't be out of line, at least to test:

1) While in choke, the target and user are both immune to all forms of entanglement (anything that requires WRITHE), save basic web, and entanglements that are given to them by the other person in choke.

2) While in choke, the effects of barrier (and similar effects) do not apply to the target or the user.

The thing to remember is that, even in groups, it is just as easy to see someone get choked and turn that to your advantage. It's a double edged sword, especially so if the group using choke is unprepared for the eventuality that the choker dies. When you see someone get choked, announce it to the group, have a Healer watch over the target and wail on the choke user like there's no tomorrow.