No, you said it grants passive attacks, while shadows do nothing of the sort.

Sidd:


Real group battles are also fought with more even numbers and not by yourself, so bringing up me struggling by myself against 2 people is disingenuous.

If I'm in a wargames fighting 2 people, why am I choosing not to play by standing by myself waiting for them to come to me than me go to them? If it's ok for them to sit in a brumetower room, why is it not ok for me to sit in a non-brumetowered room?

As far as shadows, you compared them to foresting so I pointed out reasons why the comparison falls flat. Shadows are fine as is, they don't need to take more balance, by themselves, they literally do nothing to you, it's the active skills that require them are what people complain about and what needs to be addressed. If you want to make shadows take a bit more time to feel some sort of personal victory, I can get behind that, but it won't stop the complaints about the skills in the slightest.

No, it really isn't. In a group situation, you will be trying to move a single target out from under the brume, and they will have at least 3 or 4 people in the room trying to stop you from doing that. Unless your group successfully hinders all of the other group from hindering you, you aren't going to be successful in moving them out from under the brume. It's just not going to happen. And with shadows being the speed they are, even in the event that you are successful in moving them, and have a way to stop them from just moving back (and no, your group can't attack them, they were in the room with you or you wouldn't get the move off) they can just climb down, drop shadows, brume before you can do anything much.

Sitting in the non-brume room accomplishes nothing, it doesn't further planar defense, it doesn't contribute to offense. More dirty looks shot across rooms abound pointlessly.

The things you point out actually support my position? Forest does nothing on its own, shadows DO (passive healing). Forest stops other people melding, but can be countered and stopped. Shadows do not, cannot be countered or stopped. Forest costs 1 power out of 10 active, out of a total 240 maximum in reserves. Shadows costs 1 shadow (costing less then 1 power each), out of 300 (?) active and useable shadows. No, I don't think it will help with choke, but yes, I do think it's an appropriate change, that will help mitigate other problems.

Another thing that seems buggish but isn't about choke is that if you follow, it continues beyond shadowed rooms.

EDIT: Nono, I said 'passive effects' and 'cheap attacks'. The passive effect of shadows is the vitals and affliction curing afforded by drink.

Changing the drop speed would make it more possible to move people out from under a brumetower and not have them be able to brume within 2 seconds. It wouldn't gimp SD, you'd still have three minutes of shadow, for a 3-4 second balance.

Zarquan:

No, you said it grants passive attacks, while shadows do nothing of the sort.

ok Mr. Semantics, you forest to meld, which provides passive attacks, shadows -never- provide passice effects EVER. The reason why there is a counter to foresting is because you can meld and have those passive attacks, which is why shadows don't need the same sort of counter.

The fact that you're resorting to pinpointing semantics within my points tells me that you have no other points to contribute, so if you'd like to stick to the subject at hand, we can move forward

Munsia and folks from Mag tumble out of choke a lot it makes me not doubt that they've reflexed auto-tumble on choke.

Enyalida:

Another thing that seems buggish but isn't about choke is that if you follow, it continues beyond shadowed rooms.

It's not buggish as choke's supposed to fade if the target and the Night user are still separated after X seconds.

Semantics are important in these discussions, lest we be misunderstood and/or incorrect.

As for the rest, I'm waiting for the time when the defensive posts die down and the constructive, balanced ideas can begin to be discussed.

thisismydisplayname:


It's not buggish as choke's supposed to fade if the target and the Night user are still separated after X seconds.

Yes, that bit makes sense. The part that doesn't is the 'choking shadows' continuing out of shadows.

Autotumble is not something I think we intend to "fix" but it is definitely something that can be done. I prefer to shield or gust alot of the time though if I aint prone. Instead of off bal myself and let people gust me I gust out choker and save my arse.

Shadows is within scope of the topic but it does NOT do anything on its own. Brumetower, forest are not in scope. Melds are in terms of if they should be delayed and to what extent.

As a reminder, we COULD make it so choke faded from a room choke if shadows were not present, but that would just mean spammed shadows in several rooms I would thing,

Comment on my prior ideas and stop bickering please.

thisismydisplayname:

Munsia and folks from Mag tumble out of choke a lot it makes me not doubt that they've reflexed auto-tumble on choke.

At last, the Choke Cure

Honestly with the direction this thread is going, better to just make it a "rework Night" thread. Its abilities are tied to each other more than others, what with shadows and all.

EDIT: The shadows cling to the Choker and Chokee, hence it continues outside of shadow rooms. The shadow room is just its initial source. If Choke fades in a non-shadow room, shadows need to be re-dropped.

Enyalida:


No, it really isn't. In a group situation, you will be trying to move a single target out from under the brume, and they will have at least 3 or 4 people in the room trying to stop you from doing that. Unless your group successfully hinders all of the other group from hindering you, you aren't going to be successful in moving them out from under the brume. It's just not going to happen. And with shadows being the way they are, even in the event that you are successful in moving them, and have a way to stop them from just moving back (and no, your group can't attack them, they were in the room with you or you wouldn't get the move off) they can just climb down, drop shadows, brume before you can do anything much.

Sitting in the non-brume room accomplishes nothing, it doesn't further planar defense, it doesn't contribute to offense. More dirty looks shot across rooms abound pointlessly.

The things you point out actually support my position? Forest does nothing on its own, shadows DOES (passive healing). Forest stops other people melding, but can be countered and stopped. Shadows do not, cannot be countered or stopped. Forest costs 1 power out of 10 active, out of a total 240 maximum in reserves. Shadows costs 1 shadow (costing less then 1 power each), out of 300 (?) active and useable shadows. No, I don't think it will help with choke, but yes, I do think it's an appropriate change, that will help mitigate other problems.

Another thing that seems buggish but isn't about choke is that if you follow, it continues beyond shadowed rooms.

comparing a 1v2 fight to group fighting is disingenuous. That's more akin to a ganking situation than an actual group fight.

As for brumes in groups, it's actually easier to move people out of a brumed room successfully. Your biggest argument is how easy it is to just move back to the brumed room to begin with. So you send someone who pre-serpents or something into a group and use whatever movement skill will work to move the person into the rest of your group and they proceed to hinder and kill. The guineapig then waits for serpent to pop back, and moves/tumbles/escapes. Sometimes they die, but such is the risk associated with it. This is an incredibly common tactic that's used in tons of situations. If it works successfully there, why will it not work in brumed rooms? Also, if your gusting someone into a group (or other forced movement), why bother with trees? It's 1 against a group.
Also, This thread was brought up about Choke, lets stick to that please, We can continue discussing brumetower in another thread if you wish.

I did forget about drink, my bad. Turns out foresting provides passive regen for people as well. The larger point is that shadows doesn't do anything to the enemy passively. As I said, if you want to make it a longer balance time, that's fine, but it's not going to stop complaints about the skills that come from it. You'll still complain about brumetowers in groups, you'll complain about choke in groups etc. I've explained why foresting has a counter and why shadows doesn't. You can passively attack with forests and a meld, you can't with shadows.

I'm trying to be very to the point and lay out the facts. If you wish to discuss the facts that I've pointed out, then lets do that but moving from one subject to another is just moving around the point, not accomplishing anything.

Well.

1. Brumetower has nothing to do with choke, we should probably drop that line in this thread. You can envoy brumetower anyway, it's definitely not as major as choke.

2. I'm not sure what increasing the balance time of releasing shadows will do aside from just annoy SD's. It's effect will be minimal in group combat, since you can just have someone else release shadows and you choke, so I think all it will do is make you feel better about sticking it to Night.

3. Regarding room/single choke - I am pretty sure there's no way the admin will go for completely changing the skill, so can we try really hard to tweak things first.

Though with that said, the only change I think you can really do (without adding new things like killing fae/slow ticks) is make it room wide again, but have it retain the target-victim mechanic, which will break choke if they're separated.

I think either way the skill will likely be broken, I think it needs to be given a final overhaul. Admin may not like it but 8 bandages wont fix a broke arm. It needs a splint and a cast to get the job done right.

I would love to see someone with a big block of ideas and then we can narrow them down to the most usable. I think we want something that would tone itself down to groups, even passives, but in small groups not so much weakening. That is why I would rather either see something that delays all attacks against choked people (including passives) or room choke that gets weaker as more people become present.

If you do room choke passives have to be slown down, and that once more will heavily favour whoever is set up with passives, and since Night has drink it will always favour them really.

Malarious:

- (Targetted) Being choked should cause a delay on all attacks trying to hit you as the shadows choking you (both) interfere in their attacks. This could be extended to every skill as the shadows get in the way of magic and make it harder for your psionics to reach them. Treat this as the attacker being under a choke for the attack, that is you cannot stack attacks on a person who is choked. If you swing left swing right the right will finish. This will limit the action swap for people choked and give them a little more leeway to offset attackers. Passives should be slowed down by 20-25% or so for this.

I actually really like this idea. It keeps choke in its current targetted state and has absolutely no effect on 1v1 combat, but at the same time it addresses the problem of non-choked individuals being able to target a choked one. For this suggestion, would the chokeination continue to effect both the caster and the target, or post-change would the SD only be affected by choke when they attacked their choked target like everyone else. I could see either way being fair, but it has a big impact on how detrimental the choke skill is to SD (and thus how likely they are to support this change).

+1 to Mala for a creative solution.

Sojiro:


3. Regarding room/single choke - I am pretty sure there's no way the admin will go for completely changing the skill, so can we try really hard to tweak things first.

Though with that said, the only change I think you can really do (without adding new things like killing fae/slow ticks) is make it room wide again, but have it retain the target-victim mechanic, which will break choke if they're separated.

I still think choke in groups is fine, I've laid out incredibly easy methods to combat it in groups. No one has brought up any point against those yet.

The thing is that even if you think it's fine, enough people say that it isn't, so it's not like you could just not offer up a solution.

If the admin still agree that it's fine, they wouldn't do anything about it.

RE: one way aeon effect for the nonvictims - I'm not sure that will accomplish what you hope it will. Wouldn't everyone just hammer on their best move then, so you still die?

Sidd:

3) The only time where choke is truly it's most overpowered, is when it's a group vs 1 or 2. But this falls under the case of all other situations. Groups vs 1 is typically overpowered and you better be running as quick as you can to begin with. Multitudes of other skills are just as bad in these situations.


I think it's pretty agreed upon that choke is fine 1v1, it has a long balance time, can be turned upon the caster pretty easily and escaped from pretty easily too.

In Groups, it requires pro-activeness of the group to combat it. Lack of teamwork to prevent and stop chokes in general, does not mean it's overpowered, it means you need better teamwork. It only affects 1 person, and while that 1 person needs to be proactive as well, the group needs to be assisting each other too. A good group will get around choke pretty easily, but they need to be aware that it's likely going to happen and take appropriate actions.

From report 637 (the trample/sac report):

---:
Since I don't think I see it addressed anywhere since my last comment, I'd like to reiterate: if it is viewed that the two-man combination of chokefifth warrants a change because of its capability to kill someone with just two people, then the same argument applies to this tramplesac combination since it is likewise capable with just two people. Arguments trying to hold out that a change is needed for one instance but not the other shows a bias, so kindly take this into consideration.

This would not be the first time Lusternia has made a decision based on a 2v1 skill.

Malarious' suggestion can be used in a variety of ways that I can only see bringing in more tears.

Silvanus:


From report 637 (the trample/sac report):



This would not be the first time Lusternia has made a decision based on a 2v1 skill.

I'd also like to point out that trample/sac was pretty close to guranteed deaths in less than 5 seconds, where choke/pfifth at a minimum is death ins 10-12 seconds (with no response from the target), and while choke delays action, it doesn't prevent it, like crucify does. I also believe I pointed out that choke is at it's most powerful in gank situations (multiple vs 1) but so are many other skills, such as crucify.

Sojiro:

RE: one way aeon effect for the nonvictims - I'm not sure that will accomplish what you hope it will. Wouldn't everyone just hammer on their best move then, so you still die?

That is essentially what would happen in *any* proposed roomwide solution as well. In a way, that leaves choke with a "point" - People will still have an advantage against the target of choke, but they'll have to use up all their best nukes to utilize it.

I would be interested to hear how you think it could be abused though, because there could honestly be something I'm just not seeing.