Feel free to adjust and resolve.

The intent was both people are still choked but there is a delay to hit either, perhaps even with a message. But the delay on everyone means you get a pseudo reprieve from being gank stomped as in you get a small gap to run faster. Anyway keep contemplating.

First we have to establish if it's coding-possible.

If I Choke a druid, what happens to their effects? What if I choke a Moondancer, but his fae are set to attack someone else?

Etc. etc.

Rathan:


That is essentially what would happen in *any* proposed roomwide solution as well. In a way, that leaves choke with a "point" - People will still have an advantage against the target of choke, but they'll have to use up all their best nukes to utilize it.

I would be interested to hear how you think it could be abused though, because there could honestly be something I'm just not seeing.

Well, presumably, with the roomwide choke, everyone would also be subject to the delayed curing, which I feel would be more equitable vs. only target/victim being subject to it.

If you want to abuse the one way choke, can't you just choke your own side's melder, thereby slowing down everyone attacking him, and he'll just tumble away/serpent/whatever. Pretty much making choke defensive in nature as well.

I think it'd make it easier to keep the choker alive as well (assuming the choker is also given the delayed-attack part), given a healer or two nearby.

Ssaliss:

Didn't you say shadows were fine 1v1? If so, what would extra delay on dropping shadows accomplish? In 1v1, it'd seriously weaken SDs, and in groups, SD1 drops shadows and SD2 chokes. End result? Choke (and other shadow-related abilities) are hampered in 1v1 and mostly unchanged in groups.

Sojiro:

2. I'm not sure what increasing the balance time of releasing shadows will do aside from just annoy SD's. It's effect will be minimal in group combat, since you can just have someone else release shadows and you choke, so I think all it will do is make you feel better about sticking it to Night.

What if choke required that the caster be the same person who released the shadows? If the caster dies or gets moved, someone new will have to release shadows before they can choke again.

I also recall someone mentioning stolen shadows once? Maybe you should only be able to choke someone who's shadow you've stolen. Can you hold more than one person's shadow? If so, I would change it so that you can only hold one at a time, and stealing it means another SD can't steal it. Have it return eventually (I'm thinking 15-30 seconds) if the holder dies.

I don't think any major changes to choke's effect are going to fly. Tweaks to the setup required to get there seem better to me, at least. Such a potentially debilitating effect should take a bit of work to accomplish. I know effecting the caster is supposed to be the downside, but they have the major advantage of knowing who and when they're going to choke. If either of the above changes happened, it would give the other side more of chance of preventing choke in the first place, rather than just having to deal with it once it's happened. Keeping note of who just released shadows, or who just stole someone's shadow could give you preemptive targets for attacking/moving/protecting.

Hmmm, something I just noticed from looking at the ab on the wiki: "Releasing a shadow in your location will prevent regenerating abilities of all except followers of Mother Night or Crow." Unless this is old/incorrect information, that means that having shadows in the room -does- provide a passive negative effect for enemies. Hence, I would think it needs a way to be countered/cleared. Plus, it's kind of annoying to be walking around your plane after a raid and see shadows all over the place that you can't do anything about. That's a small RP annoyance, though.

The shadows stopping non-Night/Crow passive healing is old and not actually in effect now.

Regarding shadow-stealing (Shadowdance Steal) - well, it's already more often than not done because it adds a 10% damage increase to the target. Restricting Choke to whoever released shadows in the room is too much of a hindrance, because there's no way to remove shadows (what if the releaser dies?) Restricting it to stolen-shadow might be a good idea. Let's see if someone can break it.

Lilia:

Hmmm, something I just noticed from looking at the ab on the wiki: "Releasing a shadow in your location will prevent regenerating abilities of all except followers of Mother Night or Crow." Unless this is old/incorrect information, that means that having shadows in the room -does- provide a passive negative effect for enemies. Hence, I would think it needs a way to be countered/cleared. Plus, it's kind of annoying to be walking around your plane after a raid and see shadows all over the place that you can't do anything about. That's a small RP annoyance, though.

Yeah, this is incorrect, and despite multiple typos etc, it has yet to be changed, Shadows doesn't stop any regen nor has it as long as I've played, The AB has been out of date for years (and it almost undoubtedly always comes up when choke is being discussed)

There should probably be a way to dispel shadows for a power cost by the night user if you're going to tie that in, I feel.

Or having the stolen shadow fade if the guy who steals the shadow dies.

Btw, I asked Iosai, and she said that it's possible to slow down room effects, but mobs are a whole different story. So you might be able to operate on the assumption that meld effects can be slowed, but ents cannot.

The shadows stopping non-Night/Crow passive healing is old and not actually in effect now.

Regarding shadow-stealing (Shadowdance Steal) - well, it's already more often than not done because it adds a 10% damage increase to the target. Restricting Choke to whoever released shadows in the room is too much of a hindrance, because there's no way to remove shadows (what if the releaser dies?) Restricting it to stolen-shadow might be a good idea. Let's see if someone can break it.

I figured that was the case, thanks.

As for the shadows, I was thinking that you could just release shadows again in an already shadowed room to reset who they belonged to. Might be a bit too similar to the meld mechanic to fly, but it would get rid of the 'set it and forget it' people seem to be complaining about for shadows, and it would allow increasing the balance time on releasing to affect choke. Just throwing stuff out there, I don't really know much about how Shadowdancers work.

If we go the route of stolen shadow does everything else stay the same? Choke still being mostly game over?

Either way...
SHADOWDANCE DISPERSE to remove shadows from the room, or allow releasing shadows to replace them. Stealing shadow required to choke. If the stealer dies "The shadow of $person glides away to its rightful owner" or something?

Not sure which (or both) solution is being considered but it would increase eq to use steal shadow (over just drop shadow + choke) while the other one limits how many people can choke by requiring ownership.

Before choke, or many other things for that matter, can be fixed, there needs to be a shift in the admin's direction for where they want to take the game in terms of combat. The game is balanced around 1v1, but this is NOT a 1v1 game. This is a group vs group game where things like choke excel. The argument that "group is group" doesn't hold, because that is exactly why skills like this are imbalanced.

That'll certainly bring complications for people like Jello who are pushing for this to be a 1v1 game.

Sidd:


I'd also like to point out that trample/sac was pretty close to guranteed deaths in less than 5 seconds, where choke/pfifth at a minimum is death ins 10-12 seconds (with no response from the target), and while choke delays action, it doesn't prevent it, like crucify does. I also believe I pointed out that choke is at it's most powerful in gank situations (multiple vs 1) but so are many other skills, such as crucify.

Not to nitpick, but your comment is completely off. Eq regain on crucify is 5 seconds. Crucify in ectoplasm target balance regain is 2 seconds, and getting off the cross is under 5 seconds from the point of initial crucify. Simple math is scary. Also, you can do other things on the cross (2 seconds regain from ecto'd crucify) than writhe to prevent the combo.

At this point, the trample nerf destroyed the combo, so it's moot for now but I do laugh at the repeated choke/pfifth arguments that were used to get trample/sac nerfed and yet choke/pfifth retains such vehement defense.

I did offer a suggestion in the Choke report to have it remain targetted as it currently is, but affect the entire room as long as both caster/target remain in it. Seemed neat to me, but don't remember if that was followed much.

While you have drink available you heavily favor night users, to the point they might choke eachother to guarantee that you are instantly choked while at the same time they have their passive curing up.

I think ideally we want it not to be nuts as a chokemesne, and we also want it to be more limited in some way whether that is delays to attack people, making fae go passive, or something.

Really the way choke is made I cannot see a balanced way to implement it without alot of coding.

Ixion:


Not to nitpick, but your comment is completely off. Eq regain on crucify is 5 seconds. Crucify in ectoplasm target balance regain is 2 seconds, and getting off the cross is under 5 seconds from the point of initial crucify. Simple math is scary. Also, you can do other things on the cross (2 seconds regain from ecto'd crucify) than writhe to prevent the combo.

At this point, the trample nerf destroyed the combo, so it's moot for now but I do laugh at the repeated choke/pfifth arguments that were used to get trample/sac nerfed and yet choke/pfifth retains such vehement defense.

Ok, sorry, my bad, death in less than 7 seconds compared to a minimum of 11 seconds in choke/pfifth, and you can do much much more in choke than you can on a crucifix to stop the combo. Again, simple math is scary and simple observation is scarier.

The thing about choke+perfect fifth and the report about it is that perfect fifth is not the only thing that can prevent someone from leaving a room. Although more expensive, we have barrier with the same effect. Badluck can also cause someone to be unlucky and fail to tumble, etc. It's really tricky, but you can't just nerf the combo in this case, like you could with trample+sac, you'd have to just nerf choke itself, and that's why that report failed.

And also, choke+perfectfifth is problematic. I've actually managed to break the perfect fifth and tumble out, but it's very easy for someone to gust you back into the room, or the choker to follow, since tumbles are delayed and give -plenty- of time to catch up (not to mention, choke's cure is delayed too).

The only time I have problems with Choke is while being ganked. Perhaps make it take longer to raise? Limit it to people who's shadows you have stolen? Raise it only in rooms where you personally dropped shadows (while also making you able to clear shadows from a room)?
Alternatively, possibly allow Kether/Violet to destroy shadows in room?

I don't feel that the EFFECT need to be nerfed, instead that it be made less useful for instaganking.

How about a small delay between casting choke and it taking effect? Something like 1s. Choker regains balance as normal but the target/allies get a small window to react before the effect kicks in.

Choker can time casting to when the target is off balance to prevent insta-escape, the choke still takes effect, so target could be dragged back into the room by the choker's allies. 1v1 stays very similar beyond the need for a little timing.

Too much of a nerf? Completely useless?

A one-second delay won't make a bit of difference in a group fight.