I think Lilia is onto something about making choke require more setup to accomplish rather than nerfing the effect once its used. Requiring stolen shadows (or maybe even multiple stolen shadows, similar to death tarot rubs. I think it would be best to require at least a couple) would really keep people from using it instantly in groups and give the counter group some sort of foresight into who's about to choke who. I do not think this would really affect 1v1 combat much since the SD could just steal the shadow right from the start of the fight as there's no cure to having a shadow stolen.

foolofsound:

The only time I have problems with Choke is while being ganked. Perhaps make it take longer to raise? Limit it to people who's shadows you have stolen? Raise it only in rooms where you personally dropped shadows (while also making you able to clear shadows from a room)?
Alternatively, possibly allow Kether/Violet to destroy shadows in room?

I don't feel that the EFFECT need to be nerfed, instead that it be made less useful for instaganking.

I could support choke fading the second the target and caster are seperated, I think that would solve most people's problems. Given that, it's relatively simple for a pro-active group to seperate caster/target. I don't think we need anything like requiring shadows or being the one to release.

Requiring more setup could help, but my problem with this remains the same. There is no simple cure for much of this setup. Shadows cannot be removed. Stolen shadows cannot be cured. It's still a situation of 'I see the setup coming, so I should just leave and stay out of there for a good minute or five until this wears off.'

Why not just have p5 be less effective in choke, if p5/choke is the problem? C.f. how jinx doesn't work in aeon, to make aeon less sticky; since choke is 'cured' by movement, it's quite analogous.

I also like the idea of delaying choke's start: it reduces the instagib capacity by giving the target (and their team) more time to react before chokedoom, and also gives the target's team a better chance at killing the choker before the choke-ee dies, without affecting 1v1 much.

See Rivius' response for your answer to that first part. See my previous response to that second part.

Sidd:



Ok, sorry, my bad, death in less than 7 seconds compared to a minimum of 11 seconds in choke/pfifth, and you can do much much more in choke than you can on a crucifix to stop the combo. Again, simple math is scary and simple observation is scarier.

Agreed, it is. Balance regain is 2 seconds and the quick sac combo can be broken instantly after 2s, and cannot be repeated. The quick sac combo was used the vast majority of the time as ganks on a single person, and trample was changed heavy handedly to all impales and made 1v1 warrior sac impossible. Choke is repeatable and massively debilitating to curing speed whose best escape method in tumbling is easily chased to keep choke on the target.

Ixion:


Agreed, it is. Balance regain is 2 seconds and the quick sac combo can be broken instantly after 2s, and cannot be repeated.

enlighten us how then, it doesn't matter anymore since the trample doesn't work on crucify, so why hide it?

I'll bite. Here's the simplest one. Green/Gedulah. Quick sac has no other affs aside from ecto that isn't cured by it so that's 3 limbs cured (all you need is one since trample is 10s timer). I'm sorry but it's not my fault none of you were ever clever enough to figure this out to break the quicksac combo by making a simple toggle for writhe vs green. Forren was, though, and he actually coded greening into his system to stop this.

Really though, I'm somewhat glad this was changed** in hopes that all quick instas should go (such as insta TP ego bomb), debatably timed ones too. I'm a huge advocate of making combat into more drawn out and strategic engagements rather than hit timed insta 1, hit group dispersal button 2, spam hinder button 3, summon skill 4, and the like.

**The group aspect only, that it made warrior sac impossible was a tragedy :(

Ixion:

I'll bite. Here's the simplest one. Green/Gedulah. Quick sac has no other affs aside from ecto that isn't cured by it so that's 3 limbs cured (all you need is one since trample is 10s timer). I'm sorry but it's not my fault none of you were ever clever enough to figure this out to break the quicksac combo by making a simple toggle for writhe vs green. Forren was, though, and he actually coded greening into his system to stop this.

Really though, I'm somewhat glad this was changed** in hopes that all quick instas should go (such as insta TP ego bomb), debatably timed ones too. I'm a huge advocate of making combat into more drawn out and strategic engagements rather than hit timed insta 1, hit group dispersal button 2, spam hinder button 3, summon skill 4, and the like.

**The group aspect only, that it made warrior sac impossible was a tragedy :(

green/gedulah is only 2 limbs, and you need to green after the trample (I did it once) but having to rely on one skill compared to many possibilites with choke/pfifth is ind of silly to suggest they are similar

You brought up a comparison of the two in the first post I responded to. I don't think they are very similar. Your comparisons are not the first. In fact a Glomdoring envoy used choke/pfifth as a direct comparison to trample/sac ala report 637.

Edited: reworded, tired :/

Ixion:

You brought up a comparison of the two in the first post I responded to. I don't think they are very similar. Your comparisons are not the first. In fact a Glomdoring envoy used choke/pfifth as a direct comparison to trample/sac ala report 637.

Edited: reworded, tired :/

Ok, we agree, not similar.

I think choke fading the instant of separation is a good solution. No delay, just fades.

Sounds like another adhesive bandage being applied to a sucking wound. :P

Zarquan:

Sounds like another adhesive bandage being applied to a sucking wound. :P

One of the biggest complaints about choke is the ability to follow you to different rooms and how hard it is to separate. Any proactive group that's paying attention can pretty easily move either the choker or the target, if that stops choke, those complaints stop.

In absence of better ideas, that's not a horrible solution..though probably not a good one either by itself. Tumble can overcome choke as chasing it would do nothing any longer. Sure you can gust back into the group or the person could just move and lay shadows waiting for the moment you get in the room to re-choke, but it's a start.

I disagree that this is "one of the biggest complaints about Choke," and this alone shouldn't be the solution because it does nothing about the other numerous complaints about Choke.

It is definitely a step, and I'm glad that we can agree on something.

The only other nerf I would suggest is a somewhat slower setup OR a curable setup (ie: destroy shadows w/ kether).

Ixion:

In absence of better ideas, that's not a horrible solution..though probably not a good one either by itself. Tumble can overcome choke as chasing it would do nothing any longer. Sure you can gust back into the group or the person could just move and lay shadows waiting for the moment you get in the room to re-choke, but it's a start.

Right but that's 3 more power expended to re-choke, knocking the choker off eq again for a long time and if the group is paying attention, they'll already be focused and taking damage. Sure someone else can choke too, but that falls into the realm of group combat.

I don't think destroying shadows is a good idea at all, especially with something as simple as kether. In groups you just kether whenever someone releases and boom, several skills are now useless. I really think shadows are fine, anything to adjust them doesn't really fix any of the problems.

I don't really see how it isn't the biggest complaint to be honest. People complain about it being incurable (it's cured by separation, kind of like aurawarp and pfifth), it's possible to follow and/or force move back into the room. As far as the effect itself, it's no worse than aeon. Choke dropping on separation makes it A) easier to cure and B) can't be followed

Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but maybe choke can be limited in what it effects? I see a major precedent in the form of pinleg, which in its original incarnation disallowed pretty much everything until cured. Now people can do all sorts of curative actions in it.

Edit: really Sidd? It's "no worse than aeon" in its effects? Room seperation is a HUGE disparity.

Regarding destroying shadows with Kether/Violet... I just want to say "no" to that. Shadows aren't an infinite resource. Sure, you can carry about 100 shadows around, but once you're out of shadows, you're out. Plus, shadows affect so much more than only Choke; it's used for drink, bonds, brumetower, and probably a few more things I'm forgetting about.

Ixion:


Edit: really Sidd? It's "no worse than aeon" in its effects? Room seperation is a HUGE disparity.

What does choke do? it delays all actions for 1 second. It's cured by separation but it's 'effect' is aeon.

Kind of like paralysis and severspine or stupidity and fracturedskull.They have different cures, but the same effect