I don't agree with your reasoning - it doesn't always work like that, and will have negative side-effects for 1v1. So my position is that it's okay to introduce either an area-wide yell, or allow others to cleanse a person under the Choke effect, but cleanse on yourself shouldn't do it, and Chokes costs will need to be reviewed for this as well (Shuyins position).

And possibly add Focus Spirit cure as a panic button to escape instagank?

I would be fine with reviewing power cost.

Vadi:

Wobou uses his instatumble (which is 100% impossible to follow in choke) to run around and complete negate choke.

Not true.

Yes it is true, and I added reasons as to why earlier in the thread.

No to a focus spirit cure (unless you make Choke 0p).

Excuse me? Sacrificing 25% max mana to a class with a manakill for a 75% chance to cure? I don't think you have any right to veto that out of hand, unless you can give me evidence that it will make Choke marginal.

foolofsound:

Excuse me? Sacrificing 25% max mana to a class with a manakill for a 75% chance to cure? I don't think you have any right to veto that out of hand, unless you can give me evidence that it will make Choke marginal.

Magicrown effects the cost so you can be talking 18% mana instead, also if it costs 3p they are at 7 on casting, if they rechoke to drain enough mana they cant toad. Your concern is a non issue solo, and in groups they can all just spam lash if needed.

Ah. That makes sense. Nevermind.

Vadi:

Yes it is true, and I added reasons as to why earlier in the thread.

No to a focus spirit cure (unless you make Choke 0p).

I don't see a mention of why you can't. You can certainly chase if they instantly tumble. Choke eq recovery is what 3.5-4s?

Consider:
Night user chokes, target tumbles. 1s command time+4s minimum leave room time on tumble=5s minimum to target leaving room. You regain equilibrium at 4s or less and move, 1s command time =5s. 1s choke fade means this is easily possible. Note, you can reduce the command time on moving rooms by up to 1s by doing it before regaining equilibrium, but the target cannot. Unless choke eq recovery is 7 seconds or more (assuming pre-command movement) it's possible to chase choke on instatumble. Simple math is scary.

Revan:

Why not do what Aetolia/Achaea/very other IRE did... ?

Instead of commands overwriting each other in aeon/choke.. have the commands stack. So for instance:

Now: Input A... move sluggish message.. input B before it goes through... you get sluggish message... input B goes through and you took longer to execute the action because aeonic slowdown time reset.

New fix: Input A.. sluggish message.. input B before it goes through.. Input A goes through a moment after you do input B since input B didn't interfere with input A... input B happens a moment later.

This solution is what every other game implemented... so why don't we try that?

Revan:

Also: kill ALL passive effects in choke like the other IREs.

These are factually incorrect. Achaea has the same exclusionary slowing mechanic as Lusternia (Aetolia has changed it; I'm not sure about Imperian and MKO), and the only passives which interact with any slowing mechanic are vibes (room passives, controlled by enemy lists; somewhat analogous to meld effects) being killed over a period of time by retardation (room slowing).

I said "instatumble"... which is where they leave the room right away - Akhoosh in Harmony. Not a normal tumble.

You look like a really big fool, Ixion, telling the SD GC that they can follow through tumble. I know that, and that's not what I said, if you would have ever bothered to read what I said (which you didn't).

Instatumble read to me, and perhaps to others, as instantly tumble i.e. first action. Now it's clear what you mean, and that I misunderstood what you meant. I think it would be clearer in the future if you identify skills by name, or different phrasing. Being GC of a guild really means little outside of being able to win an election, as well.

its wind mantra, that prevents confusion

Revan:

Why not do what Aetolia/Achaea/very other IRE did... ?

Instead of commands overwriting each other in aeon/choke.. have the commands stack. So for instance:

Now: Input A... move sluggish message.. input B before it goes through... you get sluggish message... input B goes through and you took longer to execute the action because aeonic slowdown time reset.

New fix: Input A.. sluggish message.. input B before it goes through.. Input A goes through a moment after you do input B since input B didn't interfere with input A... input B happens a moment later.

This solution is what every other game implemented... so why don't we try that?

Other than the obvious (though maybe a little illogical) aversion to simply copy-paste mechanics from other IREs, Aetolia combat =/= Lusternia combat. This solution is anything but "the easy, simplest and most versatile fix". Aetolia's change was coupled with a massive, significant changes to the mechanics of the classes that rely most on it (tarot flings were changed, numerology instantkill entirely revamped, vibes no longer drop in retard etc etc). Aetolia's affliction curing mechanics (including the way aeon is cured there) is also very different from Lusternia's. They have many different passive cures, they have no green/gedulah. You can probably write a book on combat theory differences and the impact these differences have on the aeon effect in these two games.

Now, I'm not saying the idea should be rejected outright. If nothing else, I'm an ardent supporter of many aetolia specific mechanics. But in this case, if we want to do the same thing to aeon/choke/sap as aetolia did, the impact and the consequences will be very far-reaching beyond simply "fixing" choke and choke problems.

As a side note and slight derail to the admin and envoys reading this, however, such a long-term change should definitely be considered. The curent combat scene in Lusternia does share a similarity with Aetolia's which may justify such a change: the conflation of combat proficiency with system proficiency. If you have a good system, you can counter many affliction mechanics. Command-delay afflictions impose a layer of competition between system proficiency in the users and victims of such afflictions - if your system has pre-outrifted herbs, if your system blocks commands, does your system have set, immediate responses to aeon/choke/sap, can it cure out of cure-blocks (anorexia+aeon) etc etc. Due to the nature of command-delay afflictions, it's also partly a ping-war. In certain ways, command delay effects are becoming obselete unless there are twists like being incurable, or restricted to cleanse-cure, etc. Such twists can give rise to inherent imbalances that are obnoxious to fix or resolve, and this thread is exhibit A. While command-delay afflictions have always been a part of the IRE affliction repertoire, it may be time to put on the creative hat and think long and hard about something new to replace an old mechanic that doesn't add fun to the combat scene, and only has the potential to create frustration.

Your arguments invalidate as of "make us Aetolia". As stated by you yourself we are not Aetolia and that would require major overhauls. And somehow "change this so we are more like aetolia" sounds like a great way for the admin to slap you back to newtons.

Keep it to Lusternia, we are not Aetolia nor can we take direct comparisons.

Bad Lerad.

I say "no" to cleanse or focus spirit cures. Neither is a real improvement and would only shift combat to other undesirable combos.

How is a cleanse cure just as bad as a focus spirit cure though. If you're going to say "undesirable combos", you're gonna have to expand on that.

Arguably, it is even easier than the focus spirit one given that everyone can point cleanse and the act of cleansing itself does not punish the person through loss of mana.

Though, another idea would be that if choke comes up, what if both the caster and victim got an aura that prevented others from hitting them (they, of course, could hit each other and only each other), ala prismatic, but doesn't fade on actions, only when choke breaks?

This idea involves changing choke the least while at the same time preventing the group combat aspect of it, which is why I like this one too.

Cleanse cures are sequential, so you can find ways of stacking the afflictions. People often say 'just make X the first one cured on cleanse,' which then pushes down all the other ones that had to be first before this change...

Sojiro:

Though, another idea would be that if choke comes up, what if both the caster and victim got an aura that prevented others from hitting them, ala prismatic, but doesn't fade on actions, only when choke breaks?

I LIKE this idea, though you would have to make their Ents always target the choked person, to prevent two SDs from raising Brume/Bonds then choking one another.

My bad, in my head, only the victim/caster can hit each other, and no one else.

So if Bob the SD chokes Sue the SD, they can only smack each other, Joe the nonchoked can only watch.

Eh. That still allows two SDs to make each other invulnerable...
There would have to be some mechanism that forced the choker to attack the chokee, or similar.