Silvanus:


11. Warriors - The same problems as before, a lot higher price to enter top tier combat, while always being minimally effective. I've never been a Warrior, its hard to say exactly what the problem is except for low damage where I almost never have to sip and can focus on applying only.

Insane cost of entry, RNG, myriad ways to avoid being hit in the first place (Stance, parry, dodge, native miss rate, pretty much all classes have equal or greater armour/damage reduction against cutting/blunt and tattoos don't help that at all, plus shieldriposte, which stuns the warrior on shieldparry, so there's even one counterATTACK), and unreliability that no other class has to deal with. Also, credit-artied outliers.

Regarding tattoos and damage reduction, warriors only deal either cutting or blunt (with the ridiculous majority dealing cutting). So that's 2 damage types to defend against. Amongst just aquamancers, there's: Magic, cold, and asphyx from staffcast, psychic if you're dealing with a telepath. So up to 3-4 damage types, which means that it's much easier to gain a large amount of resist against warriors than any other damage source (at least in my opinion). That doesn't even factor in poison from Mag, fire from Gaudi, and heavens knows what from Hallifax.

3.Choke
5.Shrines (Which I think really goes hand in hand with Malarious point)
2.Revolt speed
4.Org Momentum (Though I am not entirely sure how one would go about this short of removing all rewards, as it is linked to human nature)
11.Warriors
6.Monks
7.Druids

Though I think that all of these things (Except xp loss) are major issues, but these are most important to do quickly:

All of the class stuff, Lusternia is based off these archetypes, it's the biggest core mechanic:
Warriors- Warriors need help, and things like instant pinlegging need to just go away to compensate.
Druids- Also need help, and the envoy system can't do it because it's a delicate balance. Rework would be wonderful, barring that needs change.
Monks- Very limited, outrageously powerful in that limit. More diversification and toning down would work.
Shadowdancers/Wiccans/Choke- If SD needs a change to get choke fixed, so be it.
In general, if there are hardcoded things that are unavoidable and kill another class and have no real reason to exist otherwise, or can be toned down, it should be done.



Shrines- Shrines majorly imbalance so much else single handedly. Look at something like crow squall (or aeromancy whirlwind). It's very balanced, I'm generally fine with it as is. Throw in gravity? Wow, that's suddenly overpowered. Sure, your group gets moved, but they aren't slowed on all actions. I can spam this and not have to worry much!

DMP/damage inequalities- Some of these have been said to be quite on purpose and that's seriously not okay. I'll just point to all the people who have previously posted to that effect, it has wide ramifications. This is really not that hard to fix, it just takes a little legwork for us to compile all the tables. Less for admins, so working with them should help.

Demigods- I like some aspects of the demishop.I really dislike others. I hate that as a demigod, I'm a second class citizen who is not only restricted in weight, but who is totally locked out of all the cool things that come with ascendancy. That on top of not really being able to participate in the end game. Speaking of Ascendant powers, a lot of them seem... totally useless, or marginally useful at best. If I ascend an Ascendant, they place their support majorly at risk by devoting major chunks of weight in things like any of the Chaos powers, any of the Beauty powers, or any of the Knowledge powers. Some of these things are okay for a very specific kind of person who generally won't be an Ascendant. They either would be incapable of winning the staff event (or there would be a better candidate), or they won't have support enough to warrant spending the power cost.

Currency- Lots has been written on this. Something useful to do with gold that isn't buy credits, please! Doubling the comm costs of things like artisanry just makes me want to... not buy couches more!

Capture Speed- Too fast. I like the idea of having something besides plain force of numbers and shows of power effect revolts, but when you have both of those things, it's impossible to beat.

Org Momentum- Less double win please.

Raid Mechanics- Less zerg rush, some sort of point to raiding that isn't debilitating to the raided party, less hit and run encouraging. The ability to defend places like Moon bubble and godrealms (though there isn't any point to defending anyways). We give up lots of RP for not bothering to defend these places, but that's just too bad... because you really can't.

Choke
Org Momentum
Shrines
DMP Inequalities
Demigods
Raid Mechanic

Do you guys think we can address a big part of Druids/Monks/Warriors in 1-2 major changes each? Cause if you guys think so, I'm down with just combining those so we can have more room to discuss other things.

I think that you might be able to. I think the last idea I heard about fixing the monk problem came in two proposed solutions, so it might be feasible to likewise do the same for warriors and druids.

As for my own top in no particular order:

• Village/Flare Capture Speed
  
• Shrines
  
• Construct Inequality
  
• Demigods
  
• Races
  
• Monk/Druid/Warrior
  

I think monks need one of two things: either a very smart overhaul/mechanical change (I don't think adding more momentum levels will be enough or in the right direction) or lots of tweaks.

By tweaks, I mean going in and looking at the skillsets and changing many things simultaneously. Monks are too narrow-minded to let envoys handle it, as you're either shooting yourself in the foot or buffing yourself significantly. I don't think that these tweaks need to be code heavy or introduce new skills, but I do think that ka weights, afflictions, momentum penalties and reqs etc, need to be looked at as a whole and not in a sequential, step-by-step fix.

Even if you have the smart major change, I don't think you're going to get by without tweaking.

As an example, I think monks should be like this: they should be more wound dependent in addition to having momentum reqs. As such, an accessible prone should be easily available to all monks for that damage boost (which equals more wound building, etc.) All regen afflictions should have a mo penalty. Hardlocks should be significantly challenging to achieve, either through hefty power cost or RNG (Think Shofangi versus Ninjakari; former pays power and almost gets it, latter pays nothing but has to hope for 2 poisons to proc at once.). It should be reasonably difficult to escape a monk 1v1 or have it so that fleeing a monk doesn't reset their offense. I do know that anyone can just walk out on a Ninjakari, no excuses. What would the kill conditions be? Damage/bleeding or hardlock + insta. Former requires wound building to increase damage and poison procs. Latter requires a successful setup of key afflictions, momentum handling, etc, to execute the kill. Momentum shouldn't just be a mechanical thing for monks, but also a state of the other person.

Edit: I think by trying to lump monks into 1 to 2 changes isn't going to solve the scarce limit of their options in approach. At best, you'll make them worse. Not more balanced or more OP, just less playable, more gimmicky, and, dare I say it, perhaps unreliable?

If need be, I'm sure something could be brought together if people put their minds to it.

(Back to my midterm with me)

Demigods, especially as we get more and more. Even if you do get the chance to be an Ascendant and play with those powers, you're curtailed by the needs of those who raised you. It seems silly to devote the time and energy to Ascendants when they're a tiny fraction of the playerbase who can't even purchase at their own whims.

Races, because the racial overhauls we keep having just aren't working for some of the outliers. Things change, things get fixed, but some races seem almost purposely ignored; whether that's because balancing them is too hard or no one cares or some other reason, I don't know, but it deserves a hard look.

Class issues, I haven't been a Warrior, but I can sympathize with them, and I know how much it can suck sometimes to be a Druid, especially comparing Psionics to Ecology.

Demigods, Races, Constructs, Druids.

Constructs & Races: I'm putting these at top priority because it seems like a relatively simple fix to make and would open up a lot of choices, which is always a good thing.
Revolts/Flares: This is second place because it is also seems easy to fix and because I prefer objective-based conflict to raid-based conflict.
Warriors & Druids: The two archtypes that give the envoys the most grief from a "We want to fix this but can't due to the structure of the problem-solution report format" standpoint.
Shrines & Raid Mechanics: Although I personally dislike the raid-counterraid paradigm of combat, it does need to be rebalanced. I am 100% biased here because I have Vortex, though.
Demigods: Because the idea of making powers ascendant only has always rankled me.

Sojiro:

Do you guys think we can address a big part of Druids/Monks/Warriors in 1-2 major changes each? Cause if you guys think so, I'm down with just combining those so we can have more room to discuss other things.

I can't speak for warriors, but I bet we can get monks to a BETTER place within 2 changes. The sooner, the better as then we can use monk envoy to adjust the UP/OP around tweaked mechanics. Certainly not a top priority compared to warriors and druids (when thinking of class balance and refresh).


I think monks need one of two things: either a very smart overhaul/mechanical change (I don't think adding more momentum levels will be enough or in the right direction) or lots of tweaks.

By tweaks, I mean going in and looking at the skillsets and changing many things simultaneously. Monks are too narrow-minded to let envoys handle it, as you're either shooting yourself in the foot or buffing yourself significantly. I don't think that these tweaks need to be code heavy or introduce new skills, but I do think that ka weights, afflictions, momentum penalties and reqs etc, need to be looked at as a whole and not in a sequential, step-by-step fix.

Even if you have the smart major change, I don't think you're going to get by without tweaking.

As an example, I think monks should be like this: they should be more wound dependent in addition to having momentum reqs. As such, an accessible prone should be easily available to all monks for that damage boost (which equals more wound building, etc.) All regen afflictions should have a mo penalty. Hardlocks should be significantly challenging to achieve, either through hefty power cost or RNG (Think Shofangi versus Ninjakari; former pays power and almost gets it, latter pays nothing but has to hope for 2 poisons to proc at once.). It should be reasonably difficult to escape a monk 1v1 or have it so that fleeing a monk doesn't reset their offense. I do know that anyone can just walk out on a Ninjakari, no excuses. What would the kill conditions be? Damage/bleeding or hardlock + insta. Former requires wound building to increase damage and poison procs. Latter requires a successful setup of key afflictions, momentum handling, etc, to execute the kill. Momentum shouldn't just be a mechanical thing for monks, but also a state of the other person.

Edit: I think by trying to lump monks into 1 to 2 changes isn't going to solve the scarce limit of their options in approach. At best, you'll make them worse. Not more balanced or more OP, just less playable, more gimmicky, and, dare I say it, perhaps unreliable?


Just some cursory thoughts:

I very much respect Sahmiam's opinion (and always have), but I have to disagree regarding the value of tweaking momentum levels. Nekotai are a perfect example of where adding momentum requirements on top of heavy ka costs have done very little to sort out the whole OP/UP tangle. Actually, it has even further constrained marginal abilities to be completely UP (which then forces us to use OP tactics). Just consider what I've said in REPORT 698 as a limited window into a larger issue. In researching and writing REPORT 698, it came to feel like ka adjustment was like balancing monolithic boulders upon a finely tuned scale. Just a tip in one direction or the other and the whole scale skews to one side or another.

I have lots of finely researched and thought out approaches towards momentum level tweaking that can both benefit monks by limiting forms towards momentum gain (i.e. less tedium), placing an emphasis on mid-level momentum tactics, and providing enough wiggle room to more precisely fine tune momentum loss (not to mention give that 1p momentum boost a real purpose outside the limited window it already has). All that and we wouldn't have to rewrite ka costs from scratch; just continue to envoy costs to be appropriate given a set of guidelines of what should be allowed in low, mid-low, mid-high, and high levels of momentum.

I feel like warriors have a very different set of needs and should not be lumped with monks. My gut feeling is to keep them separate, and give warriors the higher priority. IMHO, adjusting DMP gluts and gaps feels like a proper antecedent to any class change (mage/warriors included). We want to be balanced around the new standards of alternate damage type, and have each class reviewed to be brought in line. This ranks somewhat high for me.

I'd like to see more forum discussion on solutions towards org momentum... so this rates low for me as well. Actually Flares/Villages and Shrines/Raid seems like more narrowly focused "Winning Org" topics. Demigod is a want, and not a need. Another item that ranks low even though the selfish me wants to place it higher on my list. I have my doubts that a special report could adjust choke in a way that would satisfy all parties. Although this persistent problem has been in hot debate for years, it seems too narrowly focused and small in scope for a whole special report.

Anyway...

Shrines & Raid
Villages / Flares
DMP adjustment
Warriors Fix
Druid Changes
Monk Tweaks
Demigod bonus
Choke (if at all)

Janalon:


I can't speak for warriors, but I bet we can get monks to a BETTER place within 2 changes. The sooner, the better as then we can use monk envoy to adjust the UP/OP around tweaked mechanics. Certainly not a top priority compared to warriors and druids (when thinking of class balance and refresh).



Just some cursory thoughts:

I very much respect Sahmiam's opinion (and always have), but I have to disagree regarding the value of tweaking momentum levels. Nekotai are a perfect example of where adding momentum requirements on top of heavy ka costs have done very little to sort out the whole OP/UP tangle. Actually, it has even further constrained marginal abilities to be completely UP (which then forces us to use OP tactics). Just consider what I've said in REPORT 698 as a limited window into a larger issue.

In researching and writing REPORT 698, it came to feel like ka adjustment was like balancing monolithic boulders upon a finely tuned scale. Just a tip in one direction or the other and the whole scale skews to one side or another. I have lots of finely researched and thought out approaches towards momentum level tweaking that can both benefit monks by limiting forms towards momentum gain (i.e. less tedium), placing an emphasis on mid-level momentum tactics, and providing enough wiggle room to more precisely fine tune momentum loss (not to mention give that 1p momentum boost a real purpose outside the limited window it already has). All that and we wouldn't have to rewrite ka costs from scratch; just continue to envoy costs to be appropriate given a set of guidelines of what should be allowed in low, mid-low, mid-high, and high levels of momentum.

I think we're agreeing, actually. I don't think we should be only adding momentum reqs or raising ka costs. I mean doing that while lower ka costs and perhaps reqs as well, in addition to affliction changes.

I think we're agreeing, actually. I don't think we should be only adding momentum reqs or raising ka costs. I mean doing that while lower ka costs and perhaps reqs as well, in addition to affliction changes.


Actually, we are in agreement. :) Sorry about that... late night!

Sojiro:

Do you guys think we can address a big part of Druids/Monks/Warriors in 1-2 major changes each? Cause if you guys think so, I'm down with just combining those so we can have more room to discuss other things.

Major changes may need some qualification. I'd be interested to see if druids can be fixed with only a few changes, but not all that sure that they can be. If only because of the surgical precision that would be required.

My thoughts on the presented topics, roughly ordered by an aggregate of personal opinion of importance and personal knowledge/experience with the topic:

- Demigods
- Org Momentum
- Constructs
- Choke
- Shrines
- Races
- Monks/Druids/Warriors - Combining these as mentioned above, though mainly because they all need a look, but I don't have any real inkling of which is the most critical of the group.

Shrines - Gravity and Distort can have a huge effect on fights, and with the bottomless stockpiles of order essence and esteemed items people have, they cost essentially nothing.

Races - Would be nice to see more variety in the races out there.

DMP - WTB more asphyxiation DMP please.

Demigods - You really don't get much to play around with unless you're an ascendant, spread the love some.

Gold - What other people have said.

Druids+Warriors+Monks
Shrine
Demigod
Devalued gold
Raid Mechanics

Revolt/Aetherflare Capture Speed
Choke
Shrines
Warriors+druids+monks

In order of care most to care least but still care a lot, here's my topics. Kind of sorted by how many players it impacts too. With some obvious personal bias, heh.

4. Org Momentum by Akui
8. Races (not all) by Sylphas
10. Demigods by Ssaliss
2. Revolt/Aetherflare Capture
3. Choke by Akui
14. Devalued Gold by foolsofsound
12. XP loss by Ryleth

As you can see, I skipped classes entirely, since I feel they can't just be fixed in one report. I'd be in favour of a seperate class report.