Most of these rely on eachother though.

If you cant defend your plane then having shrines weaker makes you worse off, while if shrines arent adjusted someareas remain forts still. Etc etc etc.

I was assuming since we had only a few we could do all of them (as you said several are rather fast changes)

Well, only took a few days, but here's the preliminary tally, listed in order of most votes to least:

1. Demigods by Ssaliss - 27
2. Choke by Akui- 25
3. Shrines by Viynain - 22
4a. Druids by PM - 20
4b. Warriors by Rivius - 20
5a. Org Momentum by Akui - 19
5b. Revolt/Aetherflare Capture Speed by Viynain - 19
5c. Races (not all) by Sylphas - 19
6. Monks by Janalon - 16
7. DMP Inequalities (PVE/PVP) by Janalon - 13
8. Construct Inequality by Xenthos - 10
9. Raid Mechanics by Malarious - 7
10. Devalued Gold by foolsofsound - 6
11. XP loss by Ryleth - 3

With these numbers, I'm reasonably confident that I can dismiss the bottom two, so perhaps next time, sorry.

We can probably address issues related to raid mechanics when we talk about shrines, since we're going to be looking at the war shrine's effects anyway, so we have to look into the stacked effects there. So I'll be removing raid mechanics too.

While I understand DMP inequalities and unfair constructs are annoying, I personally don't really think these are major imbalances that require a special report to address. You can have these envoyed on a case by case basis, and the numbers prove it.

Therefore, this is what we have left:

1. Demigods by Ssaliss - 27
2. Choke by Akui- 25
3. Shrines by Viynain - 22
4a. Druids by PM - 20
4b. Warriors by Rivius - 20
5a. Org Momentum by Akui - 19
5b. Revolt/Aetherflare Capture Speed by Viynain - 19
5c. Races (not all) by Sylphas - 19
6. Monks by Janalon - 16

I believe the best course of action from here on out would be to decide on which needs extensive discussion and which ones can be solved by a few changes.

So what I'm asking you, forumgoers, is if you're fine with the list above to be the issues that we will discuss, and whether we really can find a reasonable way to solve them.

I guess you can also post if you think my dismissals of the ones that did not make it were unfair in any way.

I'll make the threads by Monday/Tuesday, probably.

The above looks good to me (a bit sad that the devaluation of gold was removed though). The only one I'll enter the discussion on is the Demigod one, and that's a pretty easy one to solve, if you ask me (I can think of a few variations myself, and I'm sure others have their ideas).

I'm not convinced that DMP equalities will ever be addressed though envoys, as the admins seem to believe that the various damage types are Working As IntendedTM.

Yeah, while the demigod changes will likely have a big effect on the current political/combative landscape, I doubt anyone wants a complete overhaul and the creation of an entirely new system with all new powers and something other than a purchasing mechanic. For this reason, changes are unlikely to be code intensive. On top of that, demigod changes have the potential to affect all organizations equally, so I doubt the changes will get as heated as the debate over something like choke, and the only real resistance will come from either gods saying 'no you can't have that' or ascendants saying 'don't melt my special unique snowflake'.

Races are likewise inter-organizational, though here you will see slightly more factionalization. Again, the changes likely won't be bigger than moving a decimal point or dividing a coefficient by two in the code.

Choke is choke, and whatever we come up with will be the result of weeks of yelling and ragequits, and will likely be a compromise that leaves no one happy. Honestly, it will probably be a small change codewise unless you get the admin blessing for a complete recode, in which case I could see it becoming one of the bigger changes of this report.

Warriors can probably get away with shuffling which afflictions are in which specs and at which wound levels, and maybe slight modifications to wounding or damage. There will be a great deal of argument over where the point of balance is here, but again code-wise it probably won't be anything terribly large.

Druids.... really need to be knocked down and rebuilt from the ground up, but that realistically isn't going to happen. Like choke, this could turn out to be a really big chunk of the coding resources, or a relatively small one, depending on how much maneuverability the admin are willing to give you and how the discussion goes.

Revolt and Capture speed, unless the solution is to just make them all longer by a factor of x, will probably be a moderate amount of work (though I imagine most of this work will be behind-the-scenes math rather than argument, trying to find a formula that does what it should). Because of this, I'm unsure how successful actual discussion will be in the thread, besides alerting the admins to what exactly we feel the problems are and giving them a few suggested avenues from which to attack the math.

Org momentum will be a point of intense debate - the winning orgs will say nothing should change and that the pendulum will one day swing the other way, and the losing orgs will be at a loss to propose things that are simultaneously fair and still incentivising for those who are on top. There's really no way to judge how coding-intensive this one will be until we narrow in on a solution or twelve.

My knowledge of monks doesn't extend far beyond "spam web and run away if you suddenly find yourself being overrun", so I will decline to comment on them.

Rathan:

Org momentum will be a point of intense debate - the winning orgs will say nothing should change and that the pendulum will one day swing the other way, and the losing orgs will be at a loss to propose things that are simultaneously fair and still incentivising for those who are on top. There's really no way to judge how coding-intensive this one will be until we narrow in on a solution or twelve.

Considering the events of recent days, the pendulum does swing the other way!

I'm fine with the proposed list.

Looks good to me.

Actually, I question as to whether monks should be dismissed from the special report or not. Outside of myself and Sahmiam, I haven't heard much in the way of specific problems or solutions offered up. In fact, I only offered the report based on my past experience with the "Delete Monk" crowd.

When monks have been mentioned, there's been much more of a general "Of course they are OP" without supporting evidence. I haven't seen any solutions offered (to the best of my recollection). Do these statements speak to contemporary monks with all of the recent nerfs, or merely a vestige of some lingering pre-nerf sentiment?

So, for the sake of a progressive conversation about game balance, can anyone explain what aspects of monks are still OP and what solutions you would support above the status quo? No trolling please, I just want to listen to well presented arguments.

Alot of it is residual distaste. I have said for awhile monks are fine but agreed with some nerfs. Why were monks fine? People could still fight them just fine and many still can if they actually work with it instead of demanding we be nerfed so they can fight the exact same way every time.

You will have issues finding specific problems that dont include "warriors" in it somewhere. At least until someone has realized issues and can give them up.

As an aside, we have begun conversation on the topic in the event someone has a real reason.

Eh....I think monks should be looked at. If anything, people have learned to manage them better rather than things being balanced. You can't tell me that monks have any diversity whatsoever in their goals for a kill. People will have 75 forms, but for every 1 form, there are probably at least 2 or 3 others that are the same skills with additional mods for higher momentum or slightly tweaked situations. There's no variance in how they work. It's quite literally a 1, 2, 3 step program and the only thing that's changed is that their limited capability is nerfed/better managed while the majority of their other options are unused due to being UP.

Jakari The basic jakari chain attack.
Jakati Attack the defences that would keep your jakari out.
Boost Spend power for superior kata moves.
Ochai Cause bleeding with your jakari chain.
Ninchu Whirl your chain faster.
Gripping Grip your wielded items in a deathlock.
Ninshi Wrap your chain around others.
Dhatogh Knock down an opponent with an entangling chain.
Bhaddogho Smack the ears to spread confusion.
Ninoaghi Modify ninshi to toss people around.
Akogh A blinding kick to the face.
Barbs Shred flesh by attaching barbs to a chain.
Ninombhi Injure a body part.
Ninughi A chance to crack limbs.
Ninukhi Drag others to you with your jakari chains.
Ninaali Inducing muscle trembling weakness the body.
Illgathoru Tear the flesh when you release your jakari binds.
Ninini Wrap your jakari for defense or unarmed combat.
Ninthugi Do greater injuries to a body part.
Umubah A disorienting blow to the head or chest.
Jakarikoghu Wave your jakari chain at multiple targets.
Oolibah Numbing the nerves of the body slows one down.
Constrict Tighten your chain as you yank it off.
Ashlamkh Do the greatest injuries to a body part.
Byahkari Strike back only in self-defense.
Ughathalogg A blow to make vital organs fail.

Bolded are the skills I used regularly. Bhaddogho, Ninughi, Ninaali, Ninini, Umubah, Jakarikoghu, and Byahkari were never used. Illgathoru can be preapplied with near 100% success. Ninthugi was normally inferior to ashlamkh as far as the afflictions went, and I had -1- form that used it.

And this would be why we made a topic about variation!

Its true, if you review any monks forms alot of them end in moX or just X. Most are fairly linear though, I would like to see this both changed and there are still a couple changes we are due to make in some cases. Off the top of my head:

-Nekotai burst vessels
-Shofangi green + kneecaps
-Tahtetso insta
-Ninjakari windpipe spam? This one I am less sure about

On top of these we have known lock loops. Tendon followed by mangle until death or miss. Yada yada. I agree with some basic adjustments and perhaps extending mo levels, even if they all havthe same mo it would allow more "if past mo X do this, otherwise do that" like the shofangi slitthroat.

Janalon:

Actually, I question as to whether monks should be dismissed from the special report or not. Outside of myself and Sahmiam, I haven't heard much in the way of specific problems or solutions offered up. In fact, I only offered the report based on my past experience with the "Delete Monk" crowd.

When monks have been mentioned, there's been much more of a general "Of course they are OP" without supporting evidence. I haven't seen any solutions offered (to the best of my recollection). Do these statements speak to contemporary monks with all of the recent nerfs, or merely a vestige of some lingering pre-nerf sentiment?

So, for the sake of a progressive conversation about game balance, can anyone explain what aspects of monks are still OP and what solutions you would support above the status quo? No trolling please, I just want to listen to well presented arguments.

Eerrr, I was trying to get away from the Monkish on Monkish thought by asking for others' opinions outside the circle.

Considering the events of recent days, the pendulum does swing the other way!


The fact that you feel the need to point this out (that it is something of note) describes in part the reason for a need to look at momentum.

I believe the issue there is that many people don't even know where to really start aside from, "Yeah I see where you're coming from".

Personally, I don't know if org momentum is a topic suited for this sort of report. What can you really expect the administration to do about it? It is always going to be something driven by the players, and their personalities. About the only thing I can think of that might help is removing the free distort constructs provide, and have them just lessen the cost instead.

Ushaara:

Personally, I don't know if org momentum is a topic suited for this sort of report. What can you really expect the administration to do about it? It is always going to be something driven by the players, and their personalities. About the only thing I can think of that might help is removing the free distort constructs provide, and have them just lessen the cost instead.

The largest issue will probably be addressed with capture speeds of villages (wich in turn means 'take a look at village feelings') and maybe a look at domoths though I'm not sure the latter is necessary.

Ushaara:

Personally, I don't know if org momentum is a topic suited for this sort of report. What can you really expect the administration to do about it? It is always going to be something driven by the players, and their personalities. About the only thing I can think of that might help is removing the free distort constructs provide, and have them just lessen the cost instead.

I may agree with removing free distort, but not to the lessening of the cost. Distort (especially with the new changes regarding enemies) is already powerful (too powerful, even); if anything, the costs of discretionary powers should go up along with shrine effects. Power is easy to come by - look at Hallifax and Gaudiguch, that even with all the raiding done on Continuum Spheres and Vortex Fleshpots, they managed to churn out Vernal Ascendants already.

Eh. There's a lot that can be done about org momentum. Invert conquest so you get bigger passive bonuses the fewer villages you have. Make it take longer to snatch an aetherbubble if you already have one. Remove the power bonus from controlling an aetherbubble. Remove the power bonus from Domoths or make it a personal boost. You'll still use conquest. You'll still want aetherbubbles. You'll still want Domoths.

Malarious:

And this would be why we made a topic about variation!

Its true, if you review any monks forms alot of them end in moX or just X. Most are fairly linear though, I would like to see this both changed and there are still a couple changes we are due to make in some cases. Off the top of my head:

-Nekotai burst vessels
-Shofangi green + kneecaps
-Tahtetso insta
-Ninjakari windpipe spam? This one I am less sure about

On top of these we have known lock loops. Tendon followed by mangle until death or miss. Yada yada. I agree with some basic adjustments and perhaps extending mo levels, even if they all havthe same mo it would allow more "if past mo X do this, otherwise do that" like the shofangi slitthroat.

These all sound like items that could be handled through one envoy cycle if each guild was to tackle their own issue. Not sure it sounds special-report worthy.