Turnus:

The addition of the dingbat item at least does allow for one to pick a race for RP reasons while having the stats of another. To a lesser degree at least.

It's just not the same. : /

Besides, the general system we have is fine, it would just take a little tweaking to make a few races viable, at least for some archetype or another.

Oh, I'm not against racial rebalancing, just pointing out there's at least an option now to have your cake and eat it too.

foolofsound:

That's silly Sidd. Why would you feel that a race that nobody plays (the only viable combat Tae'daes are flukes) and claim that they are balanced? Obviously their disadvantages outweigh their advantages, and thus the disadvantages need to be lessened OR be given additional advantages.

You said yourself that Speed is King, and yet now you try to claim that Tae'dae's abysmal speed is a viable balance factor? Please. Virtually everyone know that to be untrue.

Possibly a low Int is not a colossal problem. That said, it seems that the only major weakness Krokani have is thier poor Int, yet we see very few of those. Perhaps there is something I'm missing, or the other warrior/monk races are just that much better, but to claim that unplayed races (or races that are only viable with an extremely specific build) are balanced and should go unchanged is laughable.

Being that I've played a warrior for the majority of my time in Lusternia and have tried just about every race I could with my cameo, I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on warrior races. You yourself admittedly say you are 'a lowbie.' Some Tae'dae made it work, but none of them were ever top tier, and yes the reason they have those penalties is because of the bonuses, I didn't say they didn't need changed, I said you have to give up something to get something.

I also still think Krokani is solid, it's just not as good as aslaran right now, same with Orclach. Aslaran is just plain better. They're even better than SL faeling because of that 1 str point they lost during the re-vamp.

That's why people don't play them, because the majority of people want to be the most effective they can be.

making a skill to combat int with surge is really just bringing those races closer into one superrace that I was stating. You can't have both high str and decent int

Sidd:

making a skill to combat int with surge is really just bringing those races closer into one superrace that I was stating. You can't have both high str and decent int

But you can play a high Int and Cha race that is as tanky as an aslaran? (Faeling+ForceField)

Krokani's int is a problem more than anything.

Orclach fill no particular area or purpose in Lusternia. Their int and charisma make them very likely to die to instas on top of being poor influencers and almost unable to surge. They have an extremely high fire weakness, higher than most furry races even. I would rather see them gain some int if nothing else. But they are pretty bad right now.

Rainydays:

*Faeling- the problem for them is, they're arguably TOO strong with some set ups, but, even with the big balance bonus, but their strength is too low for knights. Which matters because they need to be when they spec in glom at least. Honestly, they could be fixed by dragging their extreme stats a little more in line. Give them (or at least SL faelings) more str. Give them 12 base con. Lose the sip advantage. Decrease the balance bonus. They'd have as much constitution as an aslaran then, without the maluses, and free flight. They'd be really good still, workable as knights, and not have as bad an outlier problem. Alternately, keep the sip bonus, give them like 11 con, and give them an elemental malus. Generally they're a pain to balance because they're SO good at some stuff, but deficient in others.

You realize there is no mechanical reason to be a faeling right now? Even specced, Aslaran are better. Crunch the numbers and you see there is little reason to be a faeling without domths on them. Faeling could probably use something like +1 con and -1 sip bonus or something. Open to thoughts here.

@walraven: You do not stack herbs on an aslaran, you are taking like a 10th of a second or less in recovery time.

Rainydays:

*Igasho- kinda the reverse of faeling. One level one malus, 18 con, and a whole truck load of resists. So you could remove the balance penalties, but geeze, they'd be tough, and strong, with no drawbacks. I'd say, remove the balance penalty, or reduce it to level 1, and drop the level 2 resists down to 1.

Their dexterity limits their functionality as warriors because dexterity is hard coded as needed against anything else with a dex score. If you do not know what I mean go play around with it. Lower the balance penalty and maybe remove racial health regen. Open to specifics here again but this seems one of those slow, low dex, low int races, and in general those do not perform well.

Rainydays:

*Merian- Con is too low to have level 2 elemental maluses. Unlike the above two that are more an issue in trade offs, merian is nearly unuseable due to the situation. With demi stats, acro defenses, splendours/proofs, beast bodyguard, max life rune, glamour defenses, RoA, and attunement and other skill based defenses, it is STILL a pretty rough go for me, due to the maluses really. They have only 1 more base con than faeling, and don't have that big sip bonus to even begin to off set it. Either bump the con up to base 13-14 and leave the maluses, or drop the maluses and leave base con at 10, or make con 12 or so and drop the maluses to level 1.

Merian are mugwumps with some changes, higher cha, lower dex, and +1 str -1 int. with lvl 2 eq. They also spec the hardest (that is they have huge swings in stats when they change +5 str +5 con wtf). Lower fire penalty by one and lower int by 1 from base. I think that is generous given they can still spec into something fierce. Fire is the most common damage type and lightning is pretty rare.

Rainydays:

Mugwump- Basically, a copy-paste of the above. The disadvantages meaningfully outweigh the advantages. The solution would be very similar. Increase con, reduce maluses. Suddenly, the race is playable.

Give them -1 fire weakness, -1 electric weakness, -1 dex. Weaknesses more in line with Merian. Would I use them with this change? No. but if you give them con you will feel obligated to take something else and what do they have to give.

Rainydays:

Tae'dae- Really tough for many things, really weak to fire/magic. From playing orclach a lot, I can tell you that the 17 con tae have, coupled with resists to other things, compensate for the weaknesses. However, they cannot function with the penalties. I would drop the balance penalty entirely, and leave the EQ there for flavour. It would leave the "feel" of tae'dae in place, and at least give them a base functionality for knights.

If you give them full balance why would you ever be igasho? Drop penalty to lvl 1, lower weaknesses to lvl 1. Add regen health lvl 1.

All purely first glance thoughts mind you, cant do the intricate version right now.

Sidd:


I also still think Krokani is solid, it's just not as good as aslaran right now, same with Orclach. Aslaran is just plain better. They're even better than SL faeling because of that 1 str point they lost during the re-vamp.

I've seen this bit about SL faelings a few times now, and it is misleading.

I'm all for balancing faelings, SL faelings in particular, by giving them more constitution and strength, but that must come at the cost of some of their other abilities.

The aslaran has more strength than an SL faeling, and one more point of constituion. However, faelings have no penalties. Aslaran have a level 2 fire penalty. Aslaran have an herb penalty, faelings have an herb bonus- both at level one. Faelings have a level 3 sip bonus. Faelings can fly. All faelings have 2 more points of dex than aslaran. Base faelings have far more charisma than aslaran, and even SL faelings have a point more. Base faeling has more int than aslaran, SL faeling less.

So, if SL faelings want to be "as good or better" than aslaran along the one axis of strength with the balance bonus, that's great. I could get behind that. Buuut, nearly everything else faelings have is flatly better already. There needs to be a trade off.

Rainydays:


I've seen this bit about SL faelings a few times now, and it is misleading.

I'm all for balancing faelings, SL faelings in particular, by giving them more constitution and strength, but that must come at the cost of some of their other abilities.

The aslaran has more strength than an SL faeling, and one more point of constituion. However, faelings have no penalties. Aslaran have a level 2 fire penalty. Aslaran have an herb penalty, faelings have an herb bonus- both at level one. Faelings have a level 3 sip bonus. Faelings can fly. All faelings have 2 more points of dex than aslaran. Base faelings have far more charisma than aslaran, and even SL faelings have a point more. Base faeling has more int than aslaran, SL faeling less.

So, if SL faelings want to be "as good or better" than aslaran along the one axis of strength with the balance bonus, that's great. I could get behind that. Buuut, nearly everything else faelings have is flatly better already. There needs to be a trade off.

Eh, I think that SL faeling should be better than aslaran by just enough that eg chose them over aslaran. I realize that this isn't really the case with other spec races, but I'm not against making it so.

The fact is that even with that -1 point of strength and no significant, maluses, that +1 str that aslaran get is worth the maluses that come along with it. You can throw everything else about the races you want (by the way faelings using surge to combat health issues actually opens them up to easy mana kills, you have to make a choice in the matter, surge for the health and risk it, or stay unsurged and just deal with less health, the reverse is just not true with tae'dae, oh drop my health on my already pretty fricking sweet resists to counteract manakills, lol ezchoice, but I digress). That single point of strength is what made me choose aslaran over SL faeling.

Sidd:

Eh, I think that SL faeling should be better than aslaran by just enough that eg chose them over aslaran. I realize that this isn't really the case with other spec races, but I'm not against making it so.

Wholeheartedly disagree. I feel that the reason a spec race should have a larger presence in an org is because they are viable in every guild, not because they are the clear best choice in half of them.

foolofsound:

Wholeheartedly disagree. I feel that the reason a spec race should have a larger presence in an org is because they are viable in every guild, not because they are the clear best choice in half of them.

SL faeling are viable, just not as good as aslaran and because of that, they are not really chosen, disagree all you want, krokani are viable, orclach are viable, they just aren't the best choice.

And we should avoid clear best choices as much as possible, so simply making the SL Faeling the new clear best choice solves nothing.

foolofsound:

And we should avoid clear best choices as much as possible, so simply making the SL Faeling the new clear best choice solves nothing.

There will always be a 'clear best choice' for whatever guild/class/spec you want, unless the stat-pack idea somehow miraculously gets through, which has also been suggested so many times and shut down so many times, I feel it's not an option. I don't really understand why that's so hard to grasp

Malarious:

Krokani's int is a problem more than anything.

Orclach fill no particular area or purpose in Lusternia. Their int and charisma make them very likely to die to instas on top of being poor influencers and almost unable to surge. They have an extremely high fire weakness, higher than most furry races even. I would rather see them gain some int if nothing else. But they are pretty bad right now.

Having been one in a variety of situations, I disagree. Orclach aren't optimal. But this isn't about optimal. It's about viability. Yes, mana/ego kills were horrid, and I couldn't influence/debate. But over all as a race, there were a lot of things I could do that I can't even begin to dream of as a merian seasinger.

You realize there is no mechanical reason to be a faeling right now? Even specced, Aslaran are better. Crunch the numbers and you see there is little reason to be a faeling without domths on them. Faeling could probably use something like +1 con and -1 sip bonus or something. Open to thoughts here.

My opinion on this my prevois post. The lack of weakness beyond low str/con, and the level 2 balance/level 3 sip, (and flight, which while not a huge factor in direct fighting, is extremely useful in some situations, like astral, etc.) compared to the aslaran's herb penalty and nasty fire malus aren't being taken in to account if we compare the races only along the one axis of "strength at a given balance bonus."

Their dexterity limits their functionality as warriors because dexterity is hard coded as needed against anything else with a dex score. If you do not know what I mean go play around with it. Lower the balance penalty and maybe remove racial health regen. Open to specifics here again but this seems one of those slow, low dex, low int races, and in general those do not perform well.

Hence why I suggested dwarves need dex. Orclach dex isn't incredible, but it was improved to where it was workable in a previous change. I notice the difference, I just failed to bring it up for igasho.

Merian are mugwumps with some changes, higher cha, lower dex, and +1 str -1 int. with lvl 2 eq. They also spec the hardest (that is they have huge swings in stats when they change +5 str +5 con wtf). Lower fire penalty by one and lower int by 1 from base. I think that is generous given they can still spec into something fierce. Fire is the most common damage type and lightning is pretty rare.

Lighting is not all that rare. I mean, it has been a favoured weapon rune for a very long time. It isn't as prevelent as fire, but it's certainly a factor.

Merians and mugs don't need a "take a pound of flesh" trade off. They're below par now, there's no balance to keep here. In addition, the "spec swing" isn't a factor in and of itself- if adding con would make Merian lord/ladies have too much, just reduce the con gained from the spec appropriately. Losing int or dex is arbitrary- its playing tit for tat. The difference is here, for many things, faelings (spec'd or no) are quite viable now, so it is more delicate. The same is not true of merians/mugs, save for knight spec, where the higher constitution works to counteract the malus.

Increase the base CON of both (and specs if deemed necessary), or reduce/elimate the malus, or some middle ground of each. That's all that needs to happen.

If you give them full balance why would you ever be igasho? Drop penalty to lvl 1, lower weaknesses to lvl 1. Add regen health lvl 1.

Because igasho have a very light malus, because igasho have a bonus to BM (as marginal as those things are), because that EQ penalty at level 3 would be annoying when EQ is used.

Sidd:

There will always be a 'clear best choice' for whatever guild/class/spec you want

So then whats the point of different races at all? For non-coms to RP with? We should do our best to make multiple races competitive in any given guild depending on what your preferences are. Like being a tanky mage? Play a Lucidian. Like high risk, high reward? Play a Faeling. Like speed? Play a mugwump. There should not be a single race that is clearly the best in any given guild. Arguable best? Perhaps. But not one that is the single best choice that you MUST pick in order to be a top tier combatant.

foolofsound:


So then whats the point of different races at all? For non-coms to RP with? We should do our best to make multiple races competitive in any given guild depending on what your preferences are. Like being a tanky mage? Play a Lucidian. Like high risk, high reward? Play a Faeling. Like speed? Play a mugwump. There should not be a single race that is clearly the best in any given guild. Arguable best? Perhaps. But not one that is the single best choice that you MUST pick in order to be a top tier combatant.

That's exactly why I was saying it seems like we should just make everyone into superhuman 20 stat point lvl 3 bonuses in everything. As long as you have differences, there will be a clear best. I don't think it's possible to balance everything enough so that every choice is 'the best', It will always be one clear choice with such great synergy it will be the best. I just don't think it's possible to not do that without eliminating the uniqueness of each race.

Rainydays:

My opinion on this my prevois post. The lack of weakness beyond low str/con, and the level 2 balance/level 3 sip, (and flight, which while not a huge factor in direct fighting, is extremely useful in some situations, like astral, etc.) compared to the aslaran's herb penalty and nasty fire malus aren't being taken in to account if we compare the races only along the one axis of "strength at a given balance bonus."

My opinion: Shadowlords have a problem when I am seriously considering buying a faeling hat and a cameo so I can be Aslaran.

Those 2 extra strength points, at the position they are at, are huge. Shadowlords, when we lost 1 point during the last racial rebalancing, really took a hefty hit to the jaw.

All that really needs to happen IMO is returning that one strength point though. Aslaran will still have more strength and con, will still have a +1 eq advantage, and will still be the same speed. At that point there's not a clear and significant advantage to being a non-spec race over the spec race.

No need to go nuts with extra con points or anything, Faelings are meant to be somewhat squishy.

I know I'd be the only person to benefit, but I think adamantine lucidian could do with a +1 dex. Last time races were reviewed, I compared them to the other warrior spec races, arguing that they were weaker. I still believe that.

(Though if a polearm spec is introduced and they get a racial weapon buff instead, I'd be a happy camper!)

Question, about the heavier bigger races. Why not add something like a racial momentum to them, so that if they build it up, they could maybe do the burst damage, but if they switch targets or something else, the momentum is lost by half or something? Wouldn't that offset the balance minus in combat situations, but leave the traditional large lumbering creatures that we imagine them to be? <-- written from a non-com prespective

Not really viable, unfortunately. Switching targets quickly is vital in group combat, which much of the major combat in Lusty is based around.

I don't have the time to read everything, but I would like to point out a few things regarding some of the claims.


Thul, who was the tae'dae monk, was viable in combat. If memory serves correctly, this was before the last racial overhaul in which tae'dae got even slower. Regardless if it was before or after, though, he used the Nekotai choke skill to deal massive damage, a skill in which has been deemed overpowered by the Nekotai's envoy.

I don't think Thul is a good example to point to because he was succeeding before Tae'dae got slower AND using an OP skill to deal his damage. My guess is that Thul wouldn't be nearly as good as he was before because of the balancing changes, and I think the skill was nerfed too.

I can also say that Thul wouldn't have succeeded nearly as well in other guilds. He would have fallen completely, utterly flat in Ninjakari, even if he made use of our non-grapple combat, and I don't recall any other guild, monk or not, having a skill on the same level as the Nekotai did that would work very well for a Tae'dae to (ab)use.

Yeah, that was a problem, and the skill was nerfed because even in novice, normative race hands, you could spam it for massive damage.