foolofsound:


The problem being that specialized faelings make BETTER Mages, Wiccans, and Bards than do most other specialized races; in exchange, they make worse warriors. If you want your spec race to cover all your bases, you need to make it less extreme as a whole.

This just simply isn't true, There are plenty of mage races out there that are better than spec druid race

You can't have a specialized faeling Mage. Faelings are supposed to be better Shadowdancers (wiccans) and Harbingers (bards), because that is the specialization race of Glomdoring. That's the point of specialized races, at least I think so. A race is good when it is viable for the archetype it's obviously designed for (igasho as warriors, mugwump as casters, etc.*)

*I'm not saying mugwump and igasho are fine (mugwump certainly isn't and I haven't played an igasho, so I can't tell from experience), just that these are the archetypes the races seem to be designed for.

EDIT: To Sidd's reply above mine,

This is true. Shadowcaster faeling is too much of a wet paper bag when you can have a chunkier caster race (lucidian comes to mind - I was one when I was in the Blacktalon). The archetype design of druid is that you're chunky enough to withstand a beating (you're first target and you have to remain close enough to the fight for the demesne), which is not faeling druid. Granted, being an Ecologist makes druid quite chunky, but then you can be an Ecologist plus a lucidian (or whatever chunky caster race is out there).

But you CAN have a specialized Viscanti mage, and they are pretty woeful when it comes to it at Int 15/Cha 12, even with their racial resistances. Remember, a non-speced faeling mage still has access to TK Forcefield, rendering them almost as tanky as a viscanti with equal Int and better TK, as well as an herb and sip bonus, and high Dex for those pesky warriors/monks.

So I ask again: If you ask us to make spec race comparable with the best non-speced race in EVERY archetype, can we ask that you do the same for Viscanti?

foolofsound:

But you CAN have a specialized Viscanti mage, and they are pretty woeful when it comes to it at Int 15/Cha 12, even with their racial resistances. Remember, a non-speced faeling mage still has access to TK Forcefield, rendering them almost as tanky as a viscanti with equal Int and better TK.

So I ask again: If you ask us to make spec race comparable with the best non-speced race in EVERY archetype, can we ask that you do the same for Viscanti, Merian, Dracnari, Trill, Lucidian, and Elfen?

I already said that I think the spec races should be options (please please please, start reading everything)

Question #2: If you believe that all speced races should be comparable with the best non-speced race for every archetype (except Monks and Tracking Warriors), why would anyone want to ever pick anything else? Why bother with non-spec races at all?

RP.

foolofsound:

Question #2: If you believe that all speced races should be comparable with the best non-speced race for every archetype (except Monks and Tracking Warriors), why would anyone want to ever pick anything else? Why bother with non-spec races at all?

So people like you get to play your tae'dae and feel cool and able

So, in other words: build your RP around being the best race, or don't bother with high-tier combat?

That idea puts an awful taste in my mouth. It makes me feel that we should eliminate all but five races, one for each archetype, and just leave room for RP by allowing for mechanically identical sub-races.

Honestly, I don't believe that we should be addressing non-broken races in this report at all. We should focus on Tae'dae, Mugwump, Igasho, Viscanti, and maybe Merian. Just getting a few of the under-represented races out there.

I think that saying Viscanti are okay because Mag has that construct is not a fair move, at all. 1) It's contingent on Mag having the construct, and 2) it's very analogous to people saying faelings are fine due to domoth blessings.

The best place to focus is solely on the races themselves, not the might-bes that come into play.

It sounds as if one argument is that spec races should be better at whatever it is they are specing in. They are better. Better then the unspecialized stats of that same race at that particular archetype, and that's it.

I don't think that being a Shadowlord Faeling or Wild Elfen should automatically mean that you are the best choice for that guild, and because the spec races will always be speced to the same three things (Ritual/Totem spec, being Warrior or Mage, or being Bard), not all of the bases will be covered by every race. Though I think it's not the issue this particular thread or special report necessarily is looking at, there could be a movement to have a second spec race for every city/commune besides Hallifax, who already has two.

I agree that the scope of this should be races that are at a big disadvantage in any guild, not those who are simply suboptimal as spec races in one particular guild, as unpleasant as that may be.

You shouldn't have to decide between being useful in combat situations and RP. You shouldn't have to throw away an entire set of potentially interesting racial RP because it leaves you at a big disadvantage doing anything else. Magic hats help this and are a cool option, but you shouldn't need them.

foolofsound:

Honestly, I don't believe that we should be addressing non-broken races in this report at all. We should focus on Tae'dae, Mugwump, Igasho, Viscanti, and maybe Merian. Just getting a few of the under-represented races out there.

If you're going to put viscanti in the need-to-look-at races, you'd better place dracnari there, too. They both suffer from a level 2 sip malus; viscanti has less stats but more resistances, dracnari suffers from a large cold weakness. And dracnari don't have the luxury of having the possibility of a construct in their home city to mitigate the sip malus.

The lameness of the Gaudi constructs should be discussed elsewhere.
Looking at Dracnari, i agree that that then need to be looked at. They seem to have poor specialization stats on top of dangerous maluses.

So the races to be examined:
Tae'dae, Mugwump, Igasho, Viscanti, Merian, Dracnari

Terminology used:
*Note: Size is discounted
High Stat: Stat > 14
Med Stat: 15 > Stat > 10
Low Stat: Stat < 11
Large Bonus/Malus: Any Speed Bonus/Malus Lv3 Resistance/Weakness, Lv 2+ Sip Bonus/Malus
Med Bonus/Malus: Lv2 Resistance/Weakness, Lv2+ Regeneration, Lv.2+ Herb Bonus/Malus, Weapon Spec
Small Bonus/Malus: Lv.1 Herb Bonus/Malus, Lv1 Resistance/Weakness, Flight, Lv 1 Regeneration
*Note: Situational regeneration/breath weapons/situational influence are discounted.

Baselines for comparison:
Aslaran (generalist): 1 High Stat, 4 Medium Stats, 2 Large Bonuses, 1 Small Bonus, 1 Medium Malus, 1 Small Malus
Un-Specced Faeling (focused): 3 High Stats, 2 Low Stats, 2 Large Bonuses, 2 Small Bonuses
Specced Faeling (focused):
All: 2 Large Bonuses, 2 Small Bonuses
Shadowcaster: 3 High Stats, 2 Low Stats
Shadowlord: 1 High Stat, 3 Medium Stats, 1 Low Stat
Shadowsinger: 3 High Stats, 2 Low Stats

Races to be examined:
Tae'dae (focused): 3 High Stats, 2 Low Stats, 5 Large Bonuses, 1 Medium Bonus, 3 Large Maluses, 1 Medium Malus
Mugwump (generalist): 1 High Stat, 3 Medium Stats, 1 Low Stat, 1 Large Bonus, 1 Small Bonus, 1 Large Malus, 1 Medium Malus
Igasho (focused): 2 High Stats, 1 Medium Stat, 2 Low Stats, 4 Medium Bonuses, 4 Small Bonuses, 1 Large Malus, 1 Medium Malus, 1 Small Malus
Viscanti (generalist):
All: 3 Medium Bonuses, 1 Small Bonus, 1 Large Malus
Brood: 2 High Stats, 1 Medium Stat, 2 Low Stats
Master: 1 High Stats, 3 Medium Stats, 1 Low Stat
Irontongue: 4 Medium Stats, 1 Low Stat
Merian (focused):
All: 1 Large Bonus, 1 Medium Bonus, 2 Medium Maluses
Imperial: 2 High Stats, 3 Low Stats
Lord: 2 High Stats, 3 Medium Stats
Seasinger: 2 High Stats, 1 Medium Stat, 2 Low Stats
Dracnari (?):
All: 2 Large Bonus, 1 Small Bonus, 1 Large Malus
Illuminated: 2 High Stats, 2 Medium Stats, 1 Low Stat
Guardian: 2 High Stats, 2 Medium Stats, 1 Low Stat

If you're going to put viscanti in the need-to-look-at races, you'd better place dracnari there, too. They both suffer from a level 2 sip malus; viscanti has less stats but more resistances, dracnari suffers from a large cold weakness. And dracnari don't have the luxury of having the possibility of a construct in their home city to mitigate the sip malus.


See my previous post. Constructs are an unrelated issue unless you want to open the door for other things, such as domoths, artifacts, skills, etc. All have a possibility of affecting stuff, and none should be brought up in racial balancing.

Some how I think he's just making the point that Dracnari is in the same situation, but without the extra help so should be considered.

In-Depth: Tae'Dae
After comparison to unspecced Faelings, the following is left to be balanced:
3 Large Bonuses, 3 Large Maluses, 1 Medium Malus

This looks skewed. Remember: A Disadvantage > an Advantage of the same 'size'.

It should look something more like this:
3 Large Bonuses, 2 Large Maluses, 2 Medium Malus

This still seems a bit extreme, so lets lose the Sip Bonus and a comparable Large Malus, then lets downgrade a Medium malus to a two Small to make the trade more even.
2 Large Bonuses, 1 Large Malus, 1 Medium Malus, 2 Small Maluses

That seems pretty even. Now, lets apply the Maluses.
Large: Lv3 Magic Weakness
Medium: Lv2 Fire Weakness
Small: Lv1 Balance/EQ Malus

In exchange for the lessening of these Speed maluses, Tae'dae lose their Sip Bonus.

This trade off brings the Tae'dae Advantages/Disadvantages in line with the non-spec Faeling, and allows them to retain their characteristic slowness and tankiness while not being crushed by the weight of their disadvantages.

Proposed Tae'Dae changes:
-Remove Lv2 Sip Bonus
-Reduce Lv3 Slower Balance to Lv1
-Reduce Lv3 Slower Equilibrium to Lv1

diamondais:

Some how I think he's just making the point that Dracnari is in the same situation, but without the extra help so should be considered.

I'm fine with saying that they're in the same situation, but the "extra help" exists in other areas for -all- races, and shouldn't be part of the discussion. It reads as if he's throwing in the particular construct as if the construct should be part of viscanti balancing. If that's the case, then I hands down think that faelings should be balanced around domoths being on them. You can't be consistent and say that my position is wrong while his is correct (if he's making that argument) without either resorting to ad hoc statements or opening the door for me to make some other ridiculous claim.

The best thing to do is to look at the HELP files and stick to what's in them. It's on topic then, fully, without having to worry about people trying to change the subject or skew perspective.

No, who cares about the sip bonus, reduce the cutting/blunt to lvl 1 resists, poison cold to lvl 2 and keep psychic at level 2, and reduce speed/eq to lvl 1 malus. That's way more fair than losing a sip bonus

Edit: I agree with Sahmiam, either balance all races based on domoths/constructs or none of them

Why don't you read through my post before you 'argue' against it.
You seem to still be operating under the same delusion that Tae'dae are already balanced. They are not. If they were, they would be usable.
Sip bonus/malus is very important, look at the poor Viscanti/Dracnari. It certainly is interesting that you want to weaken Tae'dae to all of your damage types Sidd.
Besides: were you not one of the people complaining that the Mag construct grants a Sip Bonus? Obviously you care.

We should not take Domoths/Constructs into account. We cannot consider those reliable bonuses.

foolofsound:

Why don't you read through my post before you 'argue' against it.
Sip bonus/malus is very important, look at the poor Viscanti/Dracnari. It certainly is interesting that you want to weaken Tae'dae to all of your damage types Sidd.

I read it, sip bonus isn't that big of a deal. Losing 1 sip bonus is definitely not the equivalent to losing 2 speed maluses. If you want to reduce the psychic and cold instead, to nothing and keep the lvl 3 cutting/blunt/poison, then fine do that. I figured reducing cutting/blunt (easily the damage types with the most mitigation available) to lvl 1 was still giving you some resist, just not as much as before, I left poison/cold/psychic at level 2 because it's not as easily available to mitigate. I think that definitely makes up for removing 2 levels of speed malus from both balance and eq.

But hey, I'm obviously vehemently against tae'dae getting any buffs so you can play winnae again

You are being unproductive and childish. Not to mention wrong.

Sip Bonus IS a big deal; it is the central reason that Viscanti and Dracnari are considered fairly poor race choices. Further, you were personally arguing that the Mag construct giving a Lv1 Sip Bonus is unfair, so don't you try to claim that a Lv2 Sip bonus on Tae'dae is insignificant.
Further, you claim that Speed is King, yet you seem to you also claim that Lv1 Balance/EQ maluses are insufficient beside heavy Magic/Fire weaknesses (both common damage types) to cover for the race's signature tankiness.