Hey all, been thinking about this for a bit and it seems fairly obvious that Axelord arm affs and gut affs could use a bit of work. Gut has opengut at light wounds (bleed, chance to go prone after a bit) and severspine (paralysis cured by regen). Something needs to be there in mid and/or heavy to promote building wounds on the gut to help hinder and work towards execute. I've been brainstorming the existing affs and what not, and wouldn't mind seeing the angkai arm aff (slowed down salve balance) going onto a heavy gut wound. This does seem like it has potential for being OP, so I was curious what the opinion and other suggestions are of other forumites before I bug my envoy into looking at this.

Second, broken arm at heavy wounds for Axelord is crap. The trend between 2h and 1h warriors is 2Bers get crit 1h affs at heavy wounds on the limbs (collapsednerve, tendon, crackedkneecap though technically I don't think BCs get that one). Broken arm is a heavy BC aff, and doesn't belong as the heavy Axelord arm aff. Mangling arms is out (report 500, still hoping Estarra will clue me in to the Furies' reasoning on that one) so I've been looking at crackedelbow. The issue I see with Axelords getting crackedelbow is them just not being able to capitalize on it due to it being cured before balance is regained, though I could be wrong since it is a regen cure and that takes 4 seconds to go through? Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's late, I'm rambly, so yeah. Any ideas/suggestions/obvious flaws that I'm missing with these ideas would be appreciated.

tl;dr
1) new gut aff at medium/heavy, thinking slow salve balance effect from nekoai
2) replace heavy arm aff broken arm with anti-parry crackedelbow from BC

I envoyed the gut thing awhile back. It was agreed that they needed something i just couldnt think of anything good...

As far as I know, the Nekotai Angkai arm aff is pierced arm, which doesn't slow salve balance. It is also a myrtle smoke cure.

The only thing that slows salve balance in the Nekotai repertoire is the pinched nerve aff for arms. I forgot the exact effect, but iirc, it adds something like 10% or 20% to the salve balance used. Not sure about the number, though. It's also a marjoram eat cure.

Firstly, from an RP perspective, neither of these are suitable for an axelord GUT affliction. The effect, however, may well be worth pursuing. Unfortunately, the idea is to get a better gut affliction to fill up the gap.

Secondly, all RP considerations aside, I am unsure if either of these afflictions will add anything to an axelord's offense. Neither are debilitating (as far as I know pierced arm doesn't even have a noticeable effect beyond using up smoke balance) unless they stick for a significant amount of time. While pinched nerve may well be a good affliction to slow down salve curing on a target, there are a few considerations to make:

1) Pinched nerve is an eating herb cure, which axelords can only stack with sliced thighs or open gut. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think axelords have any other herb afflictions beside those either. As a 2hander, trying to use poisons to stack higher priority afflictions in order to keep pinched nerve stuck on the target is probably not going to be a reliable strategy, since you only get 1 weapon action (and thus 1 poison chance) per balance.

2) While axelords DO need a mid priority affliction on their gut repertoire, adding pinched nerve to it may be more than what they need - with all the ways axelords already have in stacking salves, slowing down salve balance on top of that is probably a high priority affliction, and a very significant buff. I'm not an axelord or a warrior, so I can't speak for sure about the balance between specs, but I don't think such a buff is needed at the moment?

-> In otherwords, the pinched nerve affliction for arms is not an appropriate affliction for a gut aff, and will also be unlikely to be effective, given its ease to cure when put beside the afflictions an axelord can give. Beyond its ineffectiveness, as well, I'm not sure if adding the effect of extended salve balance will be balanced for a spec that is very focused on regeneration affs already.

That's what I get for trying to figure out fixes when I've been up for twenty hours. I did mean the pinched nerve aff, not angkai. As for being an eaten herb cure, the idea there is that you can poison with senso/niricol/other herb cure poisons, and then someone gets to make the decision of whether or not they want to get rid of slick/blind or a slower salve balance. I haven't really thought through the ramifications, and you're probably right in the fact that it may prove overpowering considering all the salve cures. Do you have any ideas on what could go in as a gut affliction then Lerad? The more I've read your posts on the forums regarding proposed changes, the more I've come to value your opinions.

Also, Estarra/Eventru/AnyDivineThat'sWilling, any chance you could shed light on Report 500 for me, and why mangled arms for axelords at heavy was shot down? Trying to find another solution without having that bit of data is difficult at best.

Edit: I'm also trying to keep in mind that axelords can potentially have two poisons in a single round (beast spit), so perhaps the pinched nerve solution is a bit much.

Brainstormed a bit with Lilija IG, and my own suggestion for a new Axelord gut aff was the relapsing affliction Nekotai get on gut (liver damage?). It's a yarrow cure so would stack with lacerates and slicedforehead, and if combined with haemotox, might allow the axelord to build up bleeding at a pre-amputate level.

Relapsing is not a "nekotai affliction" as a note, you get it as a venom too. But the logic is sound enough if you want to ask for it.

Yeah, poor phrasing of that on my part.

I seriously doubt you would be able to stick a relapsing type of affliction that's on an herb cure long enough for it to make much of a difference. It won't "stack" with lacerated limbs/opengut as they will be able to cure them up before you get balance back. If you got a version with a regen cure it might be interesting but I do not see that happening, due to no new afflictions coming in.

What I think would be an interesting possibility is a new ability called double tap or double swing, which at a power cost allows you to hit twice (once with each head of the axe). It could be at reduced wounding but adding the possibility of an axelord affliction on another limb (eg doubletap target lleg gut). Another possibility is just letting the hit rub two venoms instead of one.

Turnus:

I seriously doubt you would be able to stick a relapsing type of affliction that's on an herb cure long enough for it to make much of a difference. It won't "stack" with lacerated limbs/opengut as they will be able to cure them up before you get balance back. If you got a version with a regen cure it might be interesting but I do not see that happening, due to no new afflictions coming in.

What I think would be an interesting possibility is a new ability called double tap or double swing, which at a power cost allows you to hit twice (once with each head of the axe). It could be at reduced wounding but adding the possibility of an axelord affliction on another limb (eg doubletap target lleg gut). Another possibility is just letting the hit rub two venoms instead of one.

Two venoms are probably a bad idea. I had a thought for a power buff at one point. PowerfulSwing, adds a power cost, when you perform a hit it finishes. For instance if you hack down it hits head, chest, AND gut. This should weaken the wounds each area it moves to but it might help stack wounds, the main issue I have is this could make execute too easy. Its funny you make a move called "double tap" when that is exactly what Axelord had, when you stunned and hit before stun wore off that was a double tap :P

I think the real question is what the axelords want to see. We can speculate lots, but the question is what they feel they are missing versus others. If I recall correctly veyrzhul used to solo execute people but I never watched him fight.

How I thought having relapsing on gut would work was by tying it with higher priority herb cures, like with senso, and with the herb balance wasted with a toxic relapse, you can then add another lacerate/poison etc. Sure it relies a bit on luck, but all warriors would surely be used to that! :)

I'm afraid I don't have much experience with warrior combat, and I'm unsure if it will be possible to stick herb afflictions reliably on a 2-hand warrior spec which focuses on salve afflictions for their end-fight goal. (Besides execute, that is.)

The problem with relapsing is that it is hard to capitalize on. I am not very sure, but the way relapsing works is that, when you are hit with a poison WHILE you have relapsing, that poison will tick again once IF you still have relapsing a few seconds after that. The tick won't happen if you cure relapsing in between, or if you hit with relapsing after the poison. In other words, for a poison tick to happen, the target has to be stuck with relapsing from before the poison is applied to after the tick timer.

It may well be a possible fix, however, if they can give relapsing as a gut affliction between opengut and severspine. Assuming you manage to hit with senso, the opponent is forced to prioritize slickness because of the incoming severspine - it will be too dangerous to leave slickness on and possibly delay the regen application. Ideally, if they do cure slickness, relapsing may possibly re-apply it if they do not manage to cure relapsing in time, and thus help an axelord in capitalizing on severspine.

The problem is that herb balance is ~1s, if I'm not wrong, and it probably won't be too difficult for a competent opponent to keep himself cleared of afflictions as they come. I'm sorry I can't give better ideas, but I don't think I know enough about warrior combat to comment more.

Hate to necro threads, but didn't see a point making a new one. Axelords, severspine moved to heavy instead of critical. It's a regen cure, causes paralysis. You do NOT need to focus body to cure it once regeneration kicks in. Essentially, tendon on gut for axelords. Thoughts, critiques, etc?

Amazing. Yes. They need a heavy wound state regen cure just like PBs get IMO.

Hm, actually sure why not?

Is there a pitfall to it being paralysis given instead of generic prone, etc? Some specific actions that will be blocked that would tick people off/make this OP?

It'll still be not as good as PB because tendons prone nicely into amputations.

Not to mention being a swing affliction rather than swing/jab.

Edit: Severspine prevents you from starting a tumble, no?

There is a reason most prones are legs, this way it takes more effort/power to achieve.

Having a 4s paralysis on gut is HUGELY superior to tendon, AL may be lacking but this seems like it would actually make it the end all be all (severspine, knockdown, slitthroat, etc). It also lends itself to easy time of proning for two hits and the target area is one of the areas required for execute. I havent written out something on it but this seems like it would be a vey easy way to train.... open with severedspine > knockdown for bal lsos + prone > severedspine > KD > spine > KD you can throw in things like power buffed slitthroat at your pleasure, as I think it would be very easy to slitlock when you can prone on gut (you cant stand with severedspine).

Keep in mind warriors are about to get higher wounding rates and more accuracy, I do not think we want any major changes to aff levels right now.

I'm not suggesting that this go in before the proposed warrior changes. However, even with the proposed changes, axelord will still be hurting. It's also somewhat disingenuous to assume that spine > kd > spine > kd will happen. It's a swing based affliction, still prone to the thrice be cursed RNG that is warrior afflicting, and as far as I understand warriors will not be getting more "dependable" afflictions in the round of changes that may or may not happen. Getting swings to happen more often on the gut could change things, but I can already emulate that with sweep, and I'm willing to put in the time in the arena to prove that even at critical wounds, severspine with a targeted swing is not a sure thing. Again, compared to tendon, which is strike/swing, I don't think that the scenario you're submitting as proof of OPness is valid. If you have a better suggestion for improving the gut somewhat, with either a different aff at medium/heavy or something else completely different, I would value your input.

To me, the problem with buffing anything in Axelord is that it could unbalance Execute, which has been pulled off quite regularly by Veyrzhul in the (recent) past. Admittedly, having not played Axelord myself, I haven't really looked into it in-depth, but that's the first thing that comes to mind.