My own personal view of Demigod is that it shouldn't be much, if any, stronger PVP than Titan. You should never have to feel "I have to get Demigod to be able to compete". Outside of that, though, pretty much anything goes; bashing, influence-buffs, utility, "fluff", etc.

So delete Demigod, so nobody can feel 'incomplete'?

Demigods were already massively nerfed because of that, and no we want it changed back, in the other direction.

Demigod is more trouble than it's worth on the whole. You don't really get anything good from it. What's the point?

Of course you get something good from it. I'm suggesting Demigods get more utility and bashing/influencing/RP perks. We get a second tradeskill; that alone makes it worth it to some people. If we add bashing-only-dmp, illusions (limited or not), extra influence abilities, etc. they'd be even better. I'm not saying Demigods shouldn't get any perks for PvP (right now, "all" they get is possible increased stats and increased regen, and in a limited fashion, refresh), but it shouldn't be anywhere near a requirement, which is what would happen if Demigods got too many perks.

Ssaliss:

Of course you get something good from it. I'm suggesting Demigods get more utility and bashing/influencing/RP perks. We get a second tradeskill; that alone makes it worth it to some people. If we add bashing-only-dmp, illusions (limited or not), extra influence abilities, etc. they'd be even better. I'm not saying Demigods shouldn't get any perks for PvP (right now, "all" they get is possible increased stats and increased regen, and in a limited fashion, refresh), but it shouldn't be anywhere near a requirement, which is what would happen if Demigods got too many perks.

You don't get a second trade skill from Demigod; you get a second tradeskill from 70,000,000 essence.

Note: 70,000,000 essence is close to 60% of hunting from level 0 to Demigod in the first place, so... yeah. You're bashing another 3/5 of the way to Demigod to get that.

You sure don't get it by being Demi. All it does is open up the ability to hunt a lot more for a number of very lackluster / overvalued and overweighted abilities. The only thing that's really good at all is the second tradeskill and I'm pretty sure that if people like you had a choice, you'd much rather just be able to get the tradeskill for the initial effort of hunting than Demigod.

That says how much Demigod is worth. :P

Edit: By 'people like you' I mean 'people who are self-professed non-combatants more interested in the other things Lusternia has to offer'. Not anything disparaging!

I think that some of the little flavor perks SHOULD be inherent to becoming a demigod with a minor essence cost (if any) and no weight.

Vadi, what we DON'T want on the other hand is for Demi to be a requirement to enter combat. Give Demis all sorts of nice toys, but don't give them so much that non-titans/demis can't enter combat for fear of being slaughtered.

Not to go off track a bit, but I would like to see some more stuff in the Havens. I have this Mount Olympus thing in my head..

Also, where did we end up going with the entrance/teleport/etc stuff? Like being an Aquamancer...My teleport message would be me in a bubble, yes? Glenda the Good Witch! I really want organization specific message popping in for something so expensive. I know it would be a lot of creative work for the admin, but I believe in in them!

I don't think Demis before the change did that. They just had DivineFire, which made anyone without it feel like it was absolutly necessary because people with it died seldomly. Now it's ability to affect PvP was deleted.

There are combat skills and artefacts that are frequently seen at high levels of combat. I haven't seen clueless new Demigods go on slaughtering sprees as soon as they got it, which suggests to be the issue isn't there.

foolofsound:

Vadi, what we DON'T want on the other hand is for Demi to be a requirement to enter combat. Give Demis all sorts of nice toys, but don't give them so much that non-titans/demis can't enter combat for fear of being slaughtered.

I would say what I want is to close the gap between what is obtainable Demi, and what honestly isn't obtainable Ascendants. I was under the impression when this was selected as a topic that was what would be addressed.

Unfortunately I don't really have any new ideas for powers for them, it doesn't seem anybody else does, and it sounds like opening the ascendant stuff to demis is completely out - meaning we won't get to see much of anything out of this report which is a real shame.

Druken:

Righto, Eventru! Forgive me if I'm misreading you, but I think that these past few posts have just been in an effort to reaffirm why the thread exists for the nonbelievers: the way demigod exists right now isn't, in the opinion of the majority, really all that superior to mortality, and questions of essence and weight factor into this assessment. If those aren't going away or changing, then that's something we'll deal with, but the suggestions earlier in the thread should still be on the table to compensate for the negative critique of essence/weight.

When I said
, I was referring to the said suggestions that we've been making, gently reminding the naysayers that these hopeful ideas are...well, all in an effort to reestablish Demigod as something fulfilling for the longterm, and not just for the moment when you vanish and reappear as a demigod in the Havens. Cool couple of seconds, but then it dawns on the player that in order to actually be a sustainable demigod entity, you need to bash. A lot. A lot a lot. A lot more than a lot.

I didn't read your post, I just noticed a few people suggesting weights and costs for proposed powers and I was merely commenting that wasting time on such things is a bit pointless IMO.

By and large I'm not getting involved anymore in the Shuyin Report discussions, but figured I'd point out what seemed wholly ignored - the flawed nature of a mentality that consists of "everything hinges on everything else being approved". You shouldn't outright assume we're going to massively shrink the gap between Demigod and Ascendants in terms of available weight (can't speak to what Estarra thinks, but I don't think such would go through), or that we're going to outright get rid of weights for 'minor' things (don't foresee that happening either).

The extent of my attention to this thread is really looking to see what new power suggestions are being made!

Would the admin be against making the powers more dynamic instead of just a list form? Maybe a set of skill trees that demi-gods can only enter, with similar entry points, spend essence on learning the skills, you can skillflex them, but remove the idea of a trans skillset, but keep it open ended so that there is a way to introduce more powers into the upper tiers of the skillset later on?

4 different skillsets,
each with similar entry points (increased stats, but a different direction that the skillset would take place, one being for lack of better term more combat heavy, another more utility heavy, another something else heavy.)

I'm sorry, but I really believe that something needs to be changed other than just adding more powers. Because if it's just more powers being added, then this same thread and all the players affected will start up again a year from now, and again if just powers are being added. Because a list of powers is boring, without mentioning the weights limiting those powers even more.

That's way complicated, I don't think something like that should go through, tbh. I'd be fine with more powers, and cost/weight adjustment to make things less restricted/pointlessly weighted.

EDIT: and though I'll never probably get access to them, a lot of the Ascendant powers look like they need major changing or major repricing to ever be used.

Everyone is saying it's too complicated, but adding spices to make up for bad cooking doesn't change the bad cooking. Bah, if someone has a quick fix for demigods without reworking it say it. Otherwise just adding more powers doesn't fix anything, just keeps adding spice.

To extend the metaphor, often simple and elegant food is best. A complicated system unlike the rest of the game has the potential to be more pain then its worth, and more confusing/time consuming then the gain from it would balance. I don't see any real flaws in the system itself, though I have problems with a bit of the execution.

I DO think you should actually get something upon becoming a demigod, as in the previous incarnation you immediately got access to some of the things considered 'powers' now. Some of those things were a lot more powerful then the strongest things demigods can get now, and without some of the enormous (70000000 essence) costs. I'm not saying we should go back to uber-dfire for everybody, but throw us a bone with the minor flavor stuff, please?

Right now, there isn't that much of a point to reducing the weight on things like choice look/shout/enter/teleport because there really isn't much else to bother with as a demigod. Hopefully that will change. I, for instance, have absolutely no interest in another trade skill, no real use for more endowments, no need for the (extremly niche and generally useless) planar quickening power or expand, and no desire for the much nerfed dfire. I'm on the fence about refresh. I'm not sure how useful a one time vitals help button will be, considering that most kill methods revolve around affliction locks or wounding stacking. That means that sitting at 35 weight (Choice enter/look/shout - 6, EoL - 9, EoT - 9, Seek - 8, Shrink - 3) I have 15 more weight to kill. I can get the EoV for a +1 cha (9), and zap and call it a day. I haven't had to make any hard decisions and am left with only a modest set of powers.

I think that some combination of opening up weight (even if you raise ascendant powers by the same amount), dropping the weight on things that have no real functional purpose (that would be all the choice skills except zap, which is worthy of weight) to either 1 or 0, and adjusting the weights/cost on other powers will go a long way. In the demi and ascendant brackets there are a lot of skills which it looks like the admins felt have more use then then they look to have from this side. Except where numbers get huge, cost isn't usually the biggest sticker for a power, it's weight.

Planarquickening, for instance. When are gates ever used? I would say that Gateweaving was underused, but that would imply that I think it is a mechanic that people are undervaluing, which I don't. All it's really useful for is making gates for cityfolk to get from prime to ethereal to elemental, or to connect two bits of your prime territory, which can generally be done better with paintings. We have a rift to our UV village, that's it. There just aren't any other uses! Any other time would result in you either opening a gate to your own territory (generally a bad idea) or the gate's use being blocked by distort. Why there exists a power to make this process go faster is beyond me, why it costs six times the essence cost of zap, even less of an idea.

-Endowment weight and cost can stay where it is, I feel. When I say 'stay where it is" I mean relative to weight maximums, if weight caps increase, so can these.
-Choice zap is also probably about right as well.
-Choice enter/look/teleport/shout should all stay at the same cost and have weights removed or halved (to 1). These aren't particularly impressive, and do zilcho. If they were custom, there would be more call for weighting and a higher cost then they have now, but that' snot the case.
-Customzap should not be eight times the cost of choice zap, or twice the weight, imo. Is this an issue of not being able to cope with large numbers of customization requests or something? I don't think having your own little customized thing should put people majorly in the hole, it was something everyone got for free in the past. The price isn't SO huge as to make it prohibitive, but the weight is more then endowments, which are definitely the best/most powerful things on the powers list right now.
-Endowment of Fortitude could stand to have a name change. I have no idea what fortitude has to do with dexterity, and the dictionary/thesarus isn't enlightening me.
-The weight of seek should be examined and probably lowered a bit. 6 or so. It's useful, but not particularly so.

Ascendant powers I think need looking at as powers and in the context of weighting/cost compared to use. Keep in mind that to win access to these powers, entire orgs need to support you one way or another. Either they've spend 2million+ power on you, or they and their allies have made you their once-a-year candidate for ascension and you were able to survive the biggest fight in the game with their help. This means that you have a lot of pressure to be combat-capable, and aren't going to win and pick things that are flavor-only over combat-useful powers.

Gift (10 weight/8,000,000 cost/7,500 use)
A slightly better version of the 5p ecology herbrenewal skill that sees spare use as is.

Harvest (20w/12mil)
Wooo, 20 weight and 12 mil essence for extra herbs! Faaabulous. Looks like 125 max every 25 hours, with a chance to grab spices.

Aegis (50w/25mil/10k)
I'm a little iffy here. It's very useful for say, group bashing. Not so useful for combat. Either damage will be so overwheming on the target that it ends up killing you both, or they die of non-damage based killing (almost all of it), or they just aren't the target. Not worth 50 weight.

Even-Handed Blessing (25w/25mil/10k)
Do I even have to explain on this one? What's the use of saving your entire group if you also save the entire enemy group? Worth a fraction of its cost, but what it does means that no one would use it even if it were totally free.

Ur'Life (15w/8mil)
Really, none of the beast things are worth it. Having one more option for your beast to do every 15 seconds when beasts can just be killed easily or separated easier is just totally underwhelming. That said, this is probably the second best. A disease affliction every 15 seconds or two can be capitalized on by certain guilds.

Breath of Life (30w/20mil/35k+)
If you have the corpse with you, just go immolate or use your nation's rezz when it applies. That's the end of that. The use of this skill was ranged rezzing but that was a bug, and with it went the use of this power.

Purity of Soul (30w/15m)
Death aura, but worse and costing the same. Only can really be used by a handful of people without buying Breath of Life as well and/or running to immolate all the timeat 100p (200 payback for most nations) a pop, you end up with negative power generation.Why ever bother with Purity if you can have a Death Aura, minor RP be damned.

Sanctity of Body (15w/8mil)
Because we all depend on our beasts to provide us all our healing. See comments on Ur'Life.

Fortunate Windfalls (20w/12mil)
Better then harvest, but still runs into the same problems. Commodities are cheap enough, there really is no great need to ever have them, you aren't likely to get something you want/need and 20 weight doesn't justify getting lucky and pulling gems.

Compatriot of Chaos (15w/8mil)
Not exactly sure what this one does. Looks like psychic damage or mana damage. Either way, whooooo, though the second would be better. See above beast comments.

Plenipotentiary of Peace (15w, 5mil)
Better parley, for all those times you care a all about random denizen enemying and can't just amnesty the mob for it or cough up the gold already. All those one times.

Peaceful companion (25w/5mil)
By far the best beast upgrade, and the weight noticed. Paradoxially the best offense out of all of them. Still not worth 1/4 the weight of a VA. Much better things to spend on, that don't have beasty problems.

Beauteous Workings (15w/15mil)
You get an extra speschul snowflake sparkle on your crafted items! They all work a little better! You just spent 15w on something that can be accomplished with a cool cartel name and a embroidering!

Ostensible Dreamer (50w/18mil)
Not only is this only useful to illusionists, it's not very useful to them. The rate at which people see though illusions really isn't that high anyways, and illusions are really just the icing on the (TK) cake.

Knowledge Awareness (30w/12mil)
While being able to use seek anywhere IS a huge boost to the seek ability, it's not one worth another 30 weight.You've paid for a free scry if you bought this. If you need to see if someone is up on a bubble, take the few seconds to ascend and seek from there. You've taken 5 seconds of your time and saved a bundle. Beat that, Geiko.

Distant Perceptions (20w/10mil)
Eavesdropping just isn't useful. Big things are said on clans, or behind closed doors in privacy'd rooms. Also, people use blue, which may or may not make them proof against your eavesdropping. I'm a dreamweaver who bums around in dreambody a lot. Trust me, people don't have that much interesting to say.

Aegis is pretty amazing for combat actually, I actually had aegis before going to Druid, I think it's cost is pretty appropiate

Xenthos also has aegis, and I know he doesn't think it is

The essence cost I can accept (though I do feel that essence costs across the board for all Ascendant abilities are high; they are at the same calculated value that Demigod abilities were prior to Demigod costs getting re-examined. The Demi costs were examined and mostly dropped, the Ascendant costs remained astronomical). The weight needs to be dropped; I do not feel it is worth 50 weight. I didn't even buy the thing until I got Manna and had a large amount of extra weight.

35-40 is far more appropriate for what it does.

On an almost completely different topic, but still.

Can we link domoths + the items + demigods/ascendants/vernal demigods together to make something special? *cough* I'm not sure if this was mentioned before but it seemed to be, almost. If one owns a domoth, they have the ability to have 1-2 temporary powers while they hold said domoth? (edit: Well. I'm lame. I want an ambient message for each domoth)

Also... please for being able to set our own apparent ages... with the honors line, or description being "x appears to be of the age ..."

Set Age "IMMORTAL" >.>

I like that ^.^