Technically, sure. (Almost) every organization has at least one active order. That fact means very little, statistically speaking. Instead, maybe compare the number of active combatants or the amount of essence offered or the cults in each order. And, also keep in mind that some Divine are fine with their followers allying with anyone they like to slaughter anyone else they like and some are really not.

That really has no bearing on the fact you can defile shrines as well. Orders are another tool to be used, and if you aren't using them, well that's your fault. Hoaracle had a shrine on Bottledowns the other day that we defiled and not a single person showed up to defend it.

What I'm really saying is that orders should not be tools for combat, in my personal opinion.

And, I'm sure that shrine wasn't defended because no one around at that moment had the bubblix to just hop out there, but that's neither here nor there as pertains to this discussion.

As long as they can be used, they will be used and there's no real point trying to argue otherwise

Edit: I kind of feel that you're saying 'because I don't care enough to take action to be prepared for things like domoths, we should make it so those who are prepared have no advantage.' That may not be what you're saying, but that's kind of what I'm getting from it.

There's always a point to presenting opinions and perspectives. Why do you think this thread exists? Yes, we did get a little tangential there, but it's all somewhat relevant to game balance and fair play.

Sidd:


I disagree with this just because it mostly just rewards the prepared. You can defile shrines on bubbles and set up your own prior to domoths pretty easily.

So why are they not allowed in villages then? That rewards the prepared as well.

Sidd:

Edit: I kind of feel that you're saying 'because I don't care enough to take action to be prepared for things like domoths, we should make it so those who are prepared have no advantage.' That may not be what you're saying, but that's kind of what I'm getting from it.

He's more saying, "there are several roleplay- and administrative-related reasons that shrines cannot be balanced across organisations, and allowing preparation with shrines for these sorts of periodic events is thus inherently imbalanced."

Lehki:

So why are they not allowed in villages then? That rewards the prepared as well.

because Villages are on prime where there are distinct disadvantages, mostly facing avenger in order to set up shrines within the village. If they were allowed the owner of the village would then have shrines preset within before the revolt even started. I think it's disingenuous to compare village to bubbles, where pk is free and there is not disadvantage to defend/defile a shrine.

Let me put it this way, Magnagora holds Stewartsville, we shrine it they defile it, we kill all of them once, they then can come back into the village and defile all they want.
If we touch them again, we get vengeanced and are peaced for a period of time in the future, preventing us from defending the shrine, or defiling a shrine.

As far as RP-administrative reasons why you can't use a shrine, I've seen shrines from Hoaracle, Elostian, Raezon, Terentia, and Viravain and Nocht used in domoths, so I don't really buy that

Sidd:


I disagree with this just because it mostly just rewards the prepared. You can defile shrines on bubbles and set up your own prior to domoths pretty easily.

Which is great!

I'd like to see you make a comeback after we've "prepared".

Really.

Shines are just boring. They ruin what could otherwise be a really good fight, and some of the effects are grossly overpowered. Shrine distort, for example, has no reason for existing in its current incarnation. Gravity is just about retarded.

As long as they exist, sure, use them. Abuse them. They're part of the game and a tool to gain an advantage. My opinion is, I'd like that to no longer be the case.

Besides, I'm sure you can prepare for fights without them. Let's get rid of the crutch.

It's devilishly hard to win any sort of silly shrine maintenance battle if your side doesn't have bubblixes to all the bubbles. I understand there should be a point to artifacts, but it would be wonderful if they were more personal/minor. There just isn't a way to get to a bubble fast enough to defend against a defile without use of the bixes. I agree that shrines used on bubbles during flares/domoths should be examined. Preparation being an advantage is one thing, preparation allowing you to shut out a much larger group with minimal tactics due to shrine abilities (which are largely being pointed out as unbalancing and unfair in this thread, yes?) is suspect.

I thought they auto-declared you by defiling which would open them up to attack again?

EDIT: Avenger is confusing, nevermind.

Glom has come back and won when you've had a bubble melded/shrined and prepped, it's kind of silly to argue that when we've done it before. We even did it against Mag in the facility a few times, and that's definitely one of the hardest bubbles to fight in if it's prepped

Lehki:

I thought they auto-declared you by defiling which would open them up to attack again?

not if you already have suspect and it's already in enemy territory

In response to Enyalida, you don't need bubblixes to fight in domoths or spheres, just a ship really.

and in all honesty, I don't see a problem with shrine powers equalizing numbers. I mean, if you have more numbers and still can't fight a group of smaller numbers in a shrine, that's more your teamwork issues than it is shrine issues. If we can do it in Etherwilde with shrines and nexus powers, why can't you do it in a bubble?

Shuyin himself said you guys run when shrine powers go up in etherwilde. He said it like, yesterday.

Also, RE: the Hoaracle shrine that didn't get defended: Rathan and I were the only ones online and attentive I think and none of us have quick access to the bubble. It wasn't because we were lazing about and didn't want to defend it.

And I've seen at least one instance recently that I can recall off the top of my head where because we set up shrines and meld, you didn't bother coming back to a bubble after the first try. vOv

Hey now, I did say that, which is true, but I did not imply (nor mean to) that we run every time shrines go up. But admittedly, whenever they go up, I tend to ask, 'Everyone feel up to piercing through or running' and we make a decision based off that.

Carry on though, this is a good topic and is probably within the confines of the report.

Rivius:

Shuyin himself said you guys run when shrine powers go up in etherwilde.

Also, RE: the Hoaracle shrine that didn't get defended: Rathan and I were the only ones online and attentive I think and none of us have quick access to the bubble. It wasn't because we were lazing about and didn't want to defend it.

It mostly depends on willingness and mood at that point, we have run at times, and other times we've stayed and fought.

Edit: I must not have been there, because it's never phased me (in reference to not coming back)

Sidd:


In response to Enyalida, you don't need bubblixes to fight in domoths or spheres, just a ship really.

No, no. You don't need bubblixes to fight in domoth battles or flares. You do need them to constantly upkeep a shrine on a bubble and defend it in the intervening days. I would certainly argue that with a slower (potentially MUCH slower) rate of getting people back up to the bubble during domoth battles after they die, you are at more then a minor disadvantage, but that's not the point.

You can't argue that a domoth battle at, for instance, Fac (which is just in general terrible to assail) isn't made hugely harder by not only having to pop out in the middle of a meld, but in the middle of gravity/invasion/shrinedistor/wrath, where the opposing party has to also slog through an enemy group that can win by using group separation skills over and over when the attackers have no recourse to magical regrouping, and are slowed on normal movement (including climbing down from trees/up from pits). That's pretty problematic. A few cute tricks based around bubblixes mean that someone can dart up and activate that shrine before it's possible for anyone else to get there and make headway on defiling.

Enyalida:


No, no. You don't need bubblixes to fight in domoth battles or flares. You do need them to constantly upkeep a shrine on a bubble and defend it in the intervening days. I would certainly argue that with a slower (potentially MUCH slower) rate of getting people back up to the bubble during domoth battles after they die, you are at more then a minor disadvantage, but that's not the point.

You can't argue that a domoth battle at, for instance, Fac (which is just in general terrible to assail) isn't made hugely harder by not only having to pop out in the middle of a meld, but in the middle of gravity/invasion/shrinedistor/wrath, where the opposing party has to also slog through an enemy group that can win by using group separation skills over and over when the attackers have no recourse to magical regrouping, and are slowed on normal movement (including climbing down from trees/up from pits). That's pretty problematic. A few cute tricks based around bubblixes mean that someone can dart up and activate that shrine before it's possible for anyone else to get there and make headway on defiling.

Glom has a set of ships with flashpoints to each bubble that are specifically in use for situations where we don't have bubblixes. Yes bubblixes are better, but not 100% necessary.

I can argue that, as we've been there and done that and won before, in the Facility no less. It's rather possible. It's tougher yes, but not unsurmountable which is what you're trying to make it out to be.

I agree gravity shouldn't slow down climbing out of pits or trees, but other than that, a cohesive effort can win you the day.

I read Iasmos saying "because Seren doesn't have active Orders, shrines should be nerfed so nobody can use them equally".

I'm all for toning down shrine effects, but the conversation has devolved into people saying shrines should be gone for good because they can't use them. I don't agree with that.

Agreed. Shrines in their current incarnation have too large an effect. That does not mean that they are an inherently flawed mechanic to be slated for destruction.