It's fairly easily time-able to finagle with enemy lists. Like with scissorkick, you can un-enemy some group of people, scissor, instantly reenemy.

Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't mean it's a strawman or an ad hominem.

I think shrines requiring full sanctification is a good start.
I think all powers should require full sanc to use, 15 rooms fully sanced for everything and defiling one room should drop those powers.
I'm not a fan of only one power at a time, or even just it affecting the influenced area, that will just lead to multiple shrines being put up whereever possible and multiple powers. It may be harder to set up, but again, preperation is key, people will have these areas prepped.
I don't think shrines should poof on domoths/flares etc. I think lack of willingness to prepare an area doesn't mean mechanics should change so you can have an even playing field.

I did think it was a huge strategic failure on Magnaserefax's part not to take part of their overwhelming numbers down and begin securing bubbles.

You already admitted that you knew what was coming and yet you still let the other side prep up and so that's what it got you.

Also you don't necessarily have to enter the facility from the aetherways portal, there's another way into it that you should look into if you're Serious about domoths.

Sidd:

Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't mean it's a strawman or an ad hominem.

I think shrines requiring full sanctification is a good start.
I think all powers should require full sanc to use, 15 rooms fully sanced for everything and defiling one room should drop those powers.
I'm not a fan of only one power at a time, or even just it affecting the influenced area, that will just lead to multiple shrines being put up whereever possible and multiple powers. It may be harder to set up, but again, preperation is key, people will have these areas prepped.
I don't think shrines should poof on domoths/flares etc. I think lack of willingness to prepare an area doesn't mean mechanics should change so you can have an even playing field.

No, actually, you pointing out that all of our complaints are sourced in our inadequacy and that our illegitimacy in combat makes those points of view invalid is what makes it an ad hominem attack.


I like the idea of one power at a time from shrines, it means you don't have to wade through wrath/gravity/invasion with the chasing mobs making it increasing more pressing to slowly crawl to breakpoints. Them effecting only that area is more of an iffy thing, but it makes sense for shrines to influence their... shrine influence.

Why do the disappear in villages then? Presumably because of peaced revolts, but that's something to consider. I still argue that if you don't have bubblixes, long term preparation of shrines is impossible against those that do, and I don't necessarily think that was intended.

Enyalida:

Why do the disappear in villages then? Presumably because of peaced revolts, but that's something to consider. I still argue that if you don't have bubblixes, long term preparation of shrines is impossible against those that do, and I don't necessarily think that was intended.

I already explained this with Lehki, the simple answer is Avenger, it affects you on prime it doesn't affect you in bubbles.

Enyalida:

I like the idea of one power at a time from shrines, it means you don't have to wade through wrath/gravity/invasion with the chasing mobs making it increasing more pressing to slowly crawl to breakpoints. Them effecting only that area is more of an iffy thing, but it makes sense for shrines to influence their... shrine influence.

It makes sense for them to be within an area, mostly because it gives the opponents the ability to shrine it too and make their enemies suffer the same effect. For instance, we're claiming a domoth, we have a shrine up in the center of the crown, with powers up, you have to wade through them to get to the room, where we can fly to you and disperse you etc, everything you complain about with shrines. Giving you the chance to make us suffer too just seems fair and makes things more balanced.

As to the ad hominem, I suppose you're right, but the fact is, coordination and preparation can definitely beat out a shrine anyday. We've done it, You've done it, it's been done enough times to be a fact. That doesn't make it a fallacy which is what you're trying to imply.

I'm fully for one active shrine power per an area. Comparing shrines in villages to domoths is not really the best example though. Villages have extra xp loss, avenger, guards, distort etc to deal with.

But, I will say that speaking for myself the idea of needing to "prepare" domoths by defiling every single one down every single day, and replacing with friendly shrines - every single day, possibly multiple times a day in order to get rid of the biggest tool for domoths does not sound fun to me. It sounds like a grind, and doesn't really interest me. Now I can already tell some people will be frothing at the mouth saying how if you want to win you need to prepare - but I'm just going to go ahead and say, I play for fun and not to win. And so my opinion is it shouldn't feel like a constant grind of "preparing" to feel like things are semi-balanced. I think one power per a shrine does a good job still giving an advantaged to grinding preparedness without being so over the top.

Actually, I remember it being Worldburn that got shrines removed from villages, which would make it a little more relevant to this discussion. Not that I have a strong feeling on that part of it one way or another.

The facts you're stating have counterpoint facts, too. For every time a shrine has been overcome, at least one other time can be found where the shrine was the reason the battle was abandoned.

Zarquan:

Actually, I remember it being Worldburn that got shrines removed from villages, which would make it a little more relevant to this discussion. Not that I have a strong feeling on that part of it one way or another.

The facts you're stating have counterpoint facts, too. For every time a shrine has been overcome, at least one other time can be found where the shrine was the reason the battle was abandoned.

People abandoning fights because of shrines is not indicative of shrines being too powerful. The reverse is true as well, the point was being made that it is possible to overcome shrines.

I never played when worldburn was around, but that doesn't change the fact that Avenger plays a big part in being able to prepare an area ahead of time for village revolts as compared to domoths/flares.

The fact that people feel the need to overcome the shrine says enough about their impact.

Come to think of it, I don't even know how having shrines get destroyed during a domoth will work. Will they all just burst in every bubble when stage 2 starts, or will the bubble the thing pops to be cleared of shrines, or what?

Flares are more obvious, though.

Still though, no one's really given an acceptable reason for not being prepared to take down a shrine even while knowing about what's going to happen.

rika:

The fact that people feel the need to overcome the shrine says enough about their impact.

What does this even mean? You usually have to overcome a few things, melds, skills, people, Does that mean they are all overpowered and should be nerfed?

I can't believe that criticizing poor group coordination is considered "ad hominem" (which totally isn't it. Ad hominem would be saying "you're so bad in combat, your opinion doesn't even matter"). Group coordination is absolutely a necessary part of combat and strategy to take down a shrine, so it is part of the argument. Unfortunately just like the forgotten "org momentum 'balancing issue'", it's in players themselves to improve, mechanics don't need adjusting.

Sidd:


What does this even mean? You usually have to overcome a few things, melds, skills, people, Does that mean they are all overpowered and should be nerfed?

It means they are too important in combat. Orders should be RP things, not another weapon to be used by orgs whenever there's a fight.

I had a long post written but the forums derped and it didn't work out so well.

@Vadi: It's not even an important line of argument, bringing it up in the first place and perpetuating it isn't doing anything but discredit one side of debate as a method to stop argument. All arguments about what could have been done in a specific situation are kind of irrelevant in terms of balance consideration, unless very carefully deconstructed, which isn't what's happening here.

(Some of) My issues with shrines:
-Order should be concerned with other Orders, not made necessary to player politics and player politics fueled combat. It reduces RP and is just silly to have shrines play such a huge part in combat, imo. I would support making shrines non-viable or terribly useful outside of orderwars.
-While not so bad in and of themselves, some of the effects are majorly unbalancing to other skills.
-The mechanics support 'victory through obnoxiousness', and maintenance/grind wars. Lameo.

Some additional thoughts:
Reading through the other Ire's shrine updates, some of them have better limits on numbers of shrines in an area and number of shrines total. In addition, to keep shrines blanketing the game gets very expensive as they introduced shrine upkeep. Something like this to discourage just having shrines constantly around across the game would be nice.

Would it though? Do realize that this will mean that more active Orders will be better off than less active Orders, and won't have as much trouble maintaining shrines. This works against your situation.

rika:

It means they are too important in combat. Orders should be RP things, not another weapon to be used by orgs whenever there's a fight.

So are melds, certain skills etc. That's like saying Shuyin is too important to combat because groups raid depending on whether he is here or not, so he needs to be nerfed.

Maybe your order isn't, but my order is most definitely tied to expanding and glorifying the Wyrd. I definitely consider it an RP move to shrine an area in order to win a domoth/flare/event/whatever. Especially with affinity, it's pretty apparent Orders are suppose to be closely tied with their Org. Does some Order's RP strictly state that they are not linked to said org and their shrines shouldn't be used to further the org's goals? I just don't buy the 'Orders are for Orders, not Org's' argument. It doesn't reduce RP in the slightest, if anything it opens up chances for more RP between orgs and gods.

I honestly think Shrines should NOT even be considered in that matter of "warfare". Honestly by definition shrines are for offerings to your Lords and testaments of your faith to them. When did Shrines become "Okay place this shrine here, and I will place mine on the south of the area. You activate gravity and me invasion. okay? GO!". If anything I want this mentality concerning shrines purged away, and then perhaps combat in Lusternia can return back to utilizing our guild skills...which were specifically made FOR combat.

Enyalida:

It's fairly easily time-able to finagle with enemy lists. Like with scissorkick, you can un-enemy some group of people, scissor, instantly reenemy.

Then it just becomes a glorified beckon, and if I wanted to use beckon, or any better room separating skill, I'd use those. Currents and whirlpool were made to hinder escape from an Aquamancers demesne, not for group separation, though they can have that effect when encountering summon resistance. Scissorkick is an active group separation skill, and hits all enemies in randoms directions, currents/whirlpool pull in one direction.

Arcanis:

I honestly think Shrines should NOT even be considered in that matter of "warfare". Honestly by definition shrines are for offerings to your Lords and testaments of your faith to them. When did Shrines become "Okay place this shrine here, and I will place mine on the south of the area. You activate gravity and me invasion. okay? GO!". If anything I want this mentality concerning shrines purged away, and then perhaps combat in Lusternia can return back to utilizing our guild skills...which were specifically made FOR combat.

That's fair enough, but I more feel that your devotion to your god has caused the god to 'imbue' you with powers and some of those powers require raising a shrine to Him in order to work. That doesn't really seem too out of place, Not really different than some cult powers requiring you to be at the cult shrine and others allowing you do them anywhere. I guess we can agree to disagree on this part.

@Sidd That's more the case of shield and healing shrine powers, though...