Enyalida:

Well, part of the problem with sap currently is that against a large number of people, you have to spend all of your effort trying to keep up the saplock and can't take the time out to work on a kill condition at the same time. If I get lusted during that time, and reject the person, they have more then enough time to cure out of the afflictions that actually stop them from getting out of sap (entangle, paralysis) and I have to hope that my various periodic effects (Assuming I've been able to stick those, not always a given) stop them. Even if that goes off without a hitch, taking a long time to kill someone can mean they have more time for the cavalry to come and save them.

Comparing this to other locking classes/guilds (like Moondancers), they are buying time with their lock to get in their not-technically-an-instakill, with either a passive mana drain, or a passive aeon-locking ability. Someone mentioned getting a finisher for druidry, this may be one way to do it, though an active one would be nice.

EDIT: Blah, this is ramble-y.
One finisher could take the place of unleash... please?

Yeah, maintaining sap is pretty unforgiving if you make a mistake, which is why I suggested the bit of upgrading to sap. But in all honesty, You -can- maintain sap while draining mana/health whatever.

uponing thinking about it more, I'd be ok with thornlashes being ok in sap again

Sidd:

uponing thinking about it more, I'd be ok with thornlashes being ok in sap again

Thornlashes were never ok in sap; they were designed to be exclusive.

What if thornlashes simply blocked curing sap like regular entangle does, and nothing else?

The problem is that sap itself wouldn't get any better with that, you might as well just entangle. It IS stupid from an RP perspective that thornlashes slip off sapped people, can we at least get the message changed to something less dumb? I wanted to be able to thornlash people in sap so that they would attrition die faster.

Enyalida:

Alright well. If I had my way, I'd rework druidry to make it not based on sap at all, but requiring it. It would go something like this:

I spose you could change sap, and have it work for your other skills better. Your suggestion of saplevels could be interesting, depending on how you work the change.

It is interesting, but I fear it's far too complex and complicated to be even looked at by the admin, I'd rather get something simple in that really does help rather than try to re-work an entire system

I somewhat agree. I do think that a fresh start would be the best thing for druids, however. I had some old ideas bumming around, and am recombing old suggestions to make something coherent.

Xenthos:

Thornlashes were never ok in sap; they were designed to be exclusive.

They were not designed that way, they were functional with sap until it was an issue and they were changed.

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I would like a fresh start for druids. I know this is unlikely to actually happen. But given some of the systems I've seen, it's quite possible that it's getting to a point where we are going to spend more time trying to rework things than we would if we just said "this is our goal, scrap everything that prevents us getting to there and put in what is needed"

Saran:


They were not designed that way, they were functional with sap until it was an issue and they were changed.

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I would like a fresh start for druids. I know this is unlikely to actually happen. But given some of the systems I've seen, it's quite possible that it's getting to a point where we are going to spend more time trying to rework things than we would if we just said "this is our goal, scrap everything that prevents us getting to there and put in what is needed"

No they were not.

I was involved in the initial design and discussion of the things!

But just for the newer forum-goers:

Geb:

Posted by geb on 08 August 2006 - 01:07 PM in Common Grounds
I tested Thornlash a bit with Elryn when it first was introduced. I noticed a few things that I will list below.

1. Ignite removes all lashed limbs.
2. I can use summer to remove other entanglements after I regain balance from writhing and before I have completely writhed out of the lash. It only took me 1.281 seconds at size 15 to regain balance. Since lash does not stop attacks, I do not see why it would hinder me from writhing and then starting my offense again once I regained balance. I will seek to test that to make sure.
3. Thornlashed limbs randomly slow movement, so it was still possible for me to run if I needed too.
4. Sap removes all of the lashes, and does not allow new ones to be given.
5. Thornlash does bleed like the devil, but there are ways to help reduced the double effect bleed has on our stat pools.
6. Writhing speed from Thornlash is based on a person’s size. So, at size 15 it took me 4 seconds to completely writhe out of the thronlashed limb, while at size 12 it took me 3.5 seconds.

So, from what I saw just from initial test I conducted, my only worry was that size should not effect writhing speed from Thornlashed limbs. I have not checked to see if Thornlash requires the person to have balance before he can writhe from it. If that were the case, I would just suggest removing that restriction from it. Besides what I have mentioned, I don’t see the skill being overpowered in 1vs1 combat. Group combat is another thing, but plenty of skills are overpowered in-group combat. Heck, the ability to Pinleg or severtendon in one combo/attack (which may become even more prevalent with the introduction of maneuvers) can be considered overpowered in-group combat.

Relevant point bolded (#4).

That doesn't mean we can't discuss some ideas for adjustments when the original design has resulted in a very underused ability. I would enoy seeing Thornlash be adjusted to be workable and not OP with Sap so it actually gets some use, rather then continue to be an underused second option. Though that would probably make Sap trickier to balance and further cement Druid reliance on Sap so I guess I have to agree with Xenthos (omg) about leaving them exclusive.

Of course I'd most prefer having Thornlash actually be a viable option for druids, and I've tried envoy reports on that in the past. I still like my idea of making it more comparable to phantomspheres, IE only doable in your demesne, hard/impossible to cure in demesne, easy/instant cure upon exiting demesne. It doesn't sound TOO complex a change to me, but who knows how much work that would actually be. /shrug

Just again, would it be easier to think about a goal, then just cut away what works against that, salvage what helps and then add in what is missing? Rather than trying to figure out a surgical change that will work amidst everything that is already there.

Saran:

Just again, would it be easier to think about a goal, then just cut away what works against that, salvage what helps and then add in what is missing? Rather than trying to figure out a surgical change that will work amidst everything that is already there.

The main issue I have with Druids right now is: If you give them anything powerful, when you stack it with Sap then it becomes quickly over-powered. It's good as-is, so we can't really buff it (imo at least!)...

I would like to see Sap changed entirely in effect so that it is an addition / complement to Druid offense instead of the end goal; that right there changes the class so significantly that other things do become an option.

As long as sap exists, anything given to Druids is going to be watered-down or be exclusive (ie Thornlash) and not work with Sap. Of course, the problem with that is that removing Sap means that Druids may need a fair bit of looking at in other areas... and I just don't have ideas, beyond things like giving Ecology instakills (which needs to be balanced with Bards), or buffing the heck out of Druidry.

Saran:

Just again, would it be easier to think about a goal, then just cut away what works against that, salvage what helps and then add in what is missing? Rather than trying to figure out a surgical change that will work amidst everything that is already there.

A small surgical change is pretty much all we can count on getting though. We can't really ask admin to go for all the work involved with gutting and re-working the whole class. If they someday decided that it was needed and worth dedicating the resources too, cool, but that's not really the point of this report.

An idea I had while talking with Sidd about his; what if we take Sap in the other direction?

We make it 1p for an ability that only works in trees and gives a 0.1s delay, or somewhere between 1 and 3 power for a 0.25s delay. At this point, instead of sap being the primary focus, it becomes an additional support item which you can use to enhance or support (no spam-clotting with a 0.1s delay for example) other Druid focuses.

At this point we actually can look at implementing other Druid focuses.

Also, as part of this, drop the Sap cast time down to about 3s and thornlashes are no longer required to be done outside of Sap (lash + a 0.1s delay can help stack up bleeding, especially if lash needs to be cleared off before you can cure it!)

Edit: To put it in a bullet list of changes:
1) Slash sap cost (choose a value between 1 and 3)
2) Change sap delay to a value between 0.1s and 0.25s (select power cost based on time picked from this range)
3) Reduce casting time of sap to 3s
4) You must remove all thornlashes before you can cure sap.

Even properly timed, people will still cure out of sap after a meld hit before the druid regains eq. Suggesting that people try and stick a thornlash before the sap encounters the same problem of people curing out before they can supplement the move unless thornlash were made to afflict with 1-2 on cast while simultaneously raising the thornrend requirement from 4 lashes to 8 lashes or so.

I like the idea of changing sap to a support skill (and one that gets worse over time) a lot, not so much just removing all the delay time from it. People would still just cleanse right on out, and druids would end up like gimply little cousins of Nihlists with ecto. Unless we are given some sort of passive entangle or passive way to capitalize on it (which I doubt will happen), things wouldn't go over well.

The skillset/archetype would require a near complete revamp if sap is changed, for the reasons everyone has hit on. While I'm 100% okay with working to find some new theme for druids, I don't think admins are, and I'm honstly not comfortable putting in a lot of effort to be shot down because our concept just isn't on the table.

I'm with Enyalida on this one, I wouldn't mind a dramatic sap change, I just don't feel it would be pushed through, and until that point, I'm more a fan of making adjustments needed to put druids on par

Just a note as I skimmed this, we've heard druids rely too much on sap and also that sap isn't strong enough (which I believe we've commented before in envoy report decisions). If you strengthen sap, then druids would rely even more on sap (thus decreasing the chances of strong new skills). If you would rather druids have a stronger sap, however, that's fine--just be aware that a stronger sap may prevent new or future skills that may allow more flexibility.

The bottom line is that you could suggest pairing a weakening of how sap currently is with a new skill to give druids more flexibility.

Not to monopolize the thread, but after my class, I'm going to finish this monster post I've got summarizing what ideas have been voiced already. Throw in more! I (think?) we've gotten the green light to just restructure things if needed.

I know I'm just an old forum troll at this point... I did play a lot of druid back in the day, and I doubt anyone is really ready to seriously overhaul many of the issues involved with druids.

A few quick points..
Rune mage/druid -- crazy utility..
Dreamweaving mage/druid -- crazy meld
Psionics/Eco mage/druid -- not equal, the real reason for the druid report

Simple solution -- divorce bard ecology & druid ecology.. I know this probably hurts Estarra, but it will let the envoys move Druid Ecology in a direction that will make druids happy, and avoids dangerous sweeping changes ATM.