Enyalida:

I (think?) we've gotten the green light to just restructure things if needed.

Oh?

Shryke:

I know I'm just an old forum troll at this point... I did play a lot of druid back in the day, and I doubt anyone is really ready to seriously overhaul many of the issues involved with druids.

A few quick points..
Rune mage/druid -- crazy utility..
Dreamweaving mage/druid -- crazy meld
Psionics/Eco mage/druid -- not equal, the real reason for the druid report

Simple solution -- divorce bard ecology & druid ecology.. I know this probably hurts Estarra, but it will let the envoys move Druid Ecology in a direction that will make druids happy, and avoids dangerous sweeping changes ATM.

Probably a no-no but damn Estarra you sniped me pretty good.

Shryke:

Simple solution -- divorce bard ecology & druid ecology.. I know this probably hurts Estarra, but it will let the envoys move Druid Ecology in a direction that will make druids happy, and avoids dangerous sweeping changes ATM.

Yeah, sorry, I would rather not separate them. (And if someone says it's b/c of the "Vision", you'll be on my bad side!)

Does that mean you are equally opposed to divorcing the skills of any of the 3 druid terts? Runes/DW/Eco could all give a viable medium for changes that would appease druids. I would say the RP support for a change between the runes skillset would be pretty easy to create.

Shryke:

Does that mean you are equally opposed to divorcing the skills of any of the 3 druid terts? Runes/DW/Eco could all give a viable medium for changes that would appease druids. I would say the RP support for a change between the runes skillset would be pretty easy to create.

Yeah, I am not a fan of divorcing skills of those tertiaries. That said, I certainly don't mind skills that would may help one class (i.e., druids) more than others. I'm sure there are creative ways to do that!

In any event, I don't understand what RP support there is to change runes. Runes are runes, there are a set number of alphabet (anyone who has researched runes would know how accurate it is). Making up a set of new runes would basically be creating a new skillset which is beyond the scope of what we had in mind for this report.

Shryke:

I know I'm just an old forum troll at this point... I did play a lot of druid back in the day, and I doubt anyone is really ready to seriously overhaul many of the issues involved with druids.

A few quick points..
Rune mage/druid -- crazy utility..
Dreamweaving mage/druid -- crazy meld
Psionics/Eco mage/druid -- not equal, the real reason for the druid report

Simple solution -- divorce bard ecology & druid ecology.. I know this probably hurts Estarra, but it will let the envoys move Druid Ecology in a direction that will make druids happy, and avoids dangerous sweeping changes ATM.

Eh? Runes has the least utility out of the three skills, it's pretty much just straight up afflicting. As far as defense goes, runes only has runicamulet which is okay, but on par with dreamweaver control and below charms from eco. It's the traditional choice, but the vast majority of the runes don't get used, the few that do are spammed like all hell. Deathproph is okay, pretty good.

Dreamweaver demesnes aren't particularly better then runic demesnes either. The motes are a little nice, but an affliction every 10 seconds (that has a 50% chance to be cured with kafe), that also fires on its own timer is meh. The short blackout is okay. Halllucinations is okay, though hard to capitalize on with sap. I would say that the runic demesne is defintily stronger then the dreamweaver demesne, hands down. Better passives with embed, including things like rad. Synergizes in a more hardcoded way then dreamweaving, but in a more limited fashion.

Ecology is pretty meh. Yes, psionics >> Ecology and generally psionics >> Druid.

@Estarra, so... we don't have said green light? I'm confused. How much of a possible change are we looking at here? Fiddling with variables level change, or new direction level change?

Pretty sure she means no making completely new terts for druids, no changing everything about what makes druids druids, and/or no divorcing skills.

Really, that leaves us in the same spot. Can't change tertiaries because that would mess up mages/bards/warriors/the other druid guild. Can't change druidry much because of Stag/Crow and Sap.

The problem with druids isn't necessarily only about the strength of the sap affliction itself, it's the issue of having a easily avoided/restricted/negated ability be your one mechanic. This is compounded by the fact that any new mechanic would either have to be exclusive of sap, thus ignoring the focus of our demesne and tertiaries, or work with it, which could easily get totally outrageous. Any major changing of sap (removal of the current mechanism entirely?) will require a restructure of the entire skillset/archetype.
Now, where to go from here is the question. There have been a few suggestions for new skills and new archetype directions so far.

++++1++++
Sap is tweaked but not fundamentally changed, it is still an aeon skill : some combination of changing the delay(aeon) time, casting time, changes to point cleanse, and the inclusion of a finishing tactic. This runs to the issues Estarra touches on. Improve sap too much and we get even more gridlocked, balancing between three archetypes.
==Gathered suggestions for this route:==

~First and foremost, remove the ability to point cleanse allies.
EDIT: You know, I've argued this so much I may just be preaching to the choir. If you want to hear my long argument, ask for it, I guess.
Solution 1: Remove the ability for point cleanse to cure sap. Solution 2: Make point cleanse take multiple applications to remove sap. Solution 3 (my favorite): Make point cleanse not clear sap in the room of the druid and perhaps adjacent rooms. You can still help, you just have to gust or move first (a la choke?).

~Change the timing parameters on sap.
Solution 1: Make sap faster/cheaper to cast, or introduce some period of stun, to make initial set up easier. This may make groups stack too well with sap. Solution 2: Reduce the delay on sap, and drastically slash cost and adjust from there, relegating sap to a more support position. Solution 3: In addition to reducing the cost of sap and fiddling with curing, make it have a stacking effect.

~Add a kill method.
Unlike other affliction classes, the druid doesn't have a druidy thing they are building to as a consequence of their 'lock'. Wiccans have a solid mana 'instakill' to work to and skills that synergize towards that. Illuminati have insanity to build, not to mention better afflicting and better cure hindering then druids. Guilds like Nihlists have more then one kill to go for, that meshes well with their entire set of three skillsets. Druids get a kill through their tertiary if they are lucky, or secondary if they are Blacktalon. That's right, I dont' count gore. Health damage is easier to mitigate, and if someone is vulnerable to gore, they are vulnerable to being point-staffed to death. Swoop only terribly opens up for the druid if they have runes for doublehaegl. Eternalsleep is paired with a subpar and will intensive mana drain, and a high power cost. Deathprophecy is okay, no real comments there, I guess.
Solution 1: Make sap automatically kill after a certain amount of time as the sap hardens. Solution 2: In conjunction with other sap changes, make thornlashes work with sap. Examine the possibility multiple druids lashing in the context of sap, perhaps disallow that. Solution 3: Create a new instakill for druids. Bleeding based kills have been suggested in the past, as well as saplevel based kills. It would be nice if this kill passively built to some extent as long as it isn't too much of a problem outside of sap.

Things I would also like to see:
~Druid's demesne actually ramps up against sapped people. The demesne effects take extra effect on these people and are generally more hindering. It was suggested that swarm block communications on people who are sapped. They stick to the sap and their buzzing wings disrupt your mental channels. This would help alleviate point cleanse problems, you wouldn't be able to call out to your distant allies to rush in and point cleanse you.
~A stacking mechanism for druids. Something that builds up on you the longer you stay in the demense or the longer you don't have protection up and aren't curing that will have some effect. There really isn't that much of an inherent downside to just camping out in a druid demesne, besides not being able to use your own demesne. My demesne will give you paralysis at worst. Dementia is a bit annoying, but boohoo. Mages do have phantomspheres which give you reason to not camp.

If the problem is druids sucking outside of their melds, then why do any buffs need to come in the form of a new/improved tertiary, when the problem is universal to all druids? Why is it such a problem to add new skills to druidry that specifically address out-of-meld fighting?

I think the problem is a combination of being unable to fight effectvely outside of meld AND being no more dangerous (an less so than some) than mages in their melds. So that leads to the question: should druids be more powerful than mages in their melds, but less outside? Or should we make druids able to fight outside their melds?

I like the idea of a treekin/viridian form that does not allow the druid to break/make melds (have to shed this form to meld), but gives them increased dmp and unique skills (perhaps based off actual meld effects in druidry) that lets them do better out of meld.

If we're talking about ways to help out of meld viability

P.S. This could go in Druidry and be a new trans skill..

Agreed. All the changes I just suggested are purely to help druids in their demesne. We'd need an entire new mechanic (added to our secondary, probably) to do things out of demesne. Of course, that'd help warriors. We could have a non-meld based string of things in Druidry.

EDIT: I'll hold off on my other suggestions for different directions until we hear from Esty. Also, a lot of demesne effects should change. Our demesne is not synergistic, and should be made more so. I'd love to do a smoke afflictions to match my asthma...

I don't think making druid melds any more powerful would be a good thing, because that has huge implications on group combat. The problem is druids sucking outside of their melds, not that their melds aren't strong enough. Making druids not suck outside of their melds is a much better option as far as balancing group dynamics as well as solo capability goes.

Edit: While it would be great to have a viridian form outside of melds, where each individual meld skill in druidry has either a meld effect or a viridian form effect, I don't think there is much difference between that and making a whole new skillset.

I was just making up ideas, it could very well be just 3 new abilities in this proposed viridian form that would help druids be better outside of their meld.

I didn't even say you had to have abilities that mimicked every meld effect.

The problem with druid demesne is that it's pretty random, it doesn't have much of a focused objective, outside of sap. Inside of sap it boils down to "paralyze lots".

Any sort of powerup form (SUPER SAIYAN, YES) would have a a separate track of abilities methinks. Much like how ecology has several distinct tracks, the fetish track, the charm track, the smudge track.

If Druids get enough stuff that they're functional outside of demense, I'd imagine these things would also work for when they're in demense. I'm not intimately familiar with druid combat, but would this bring druid offense inside demense to be about equivalent to mage offense inside demense? Yes, mages have phantomspheres and TK/TP, but the current suggestions wouldn't be using the druid's balance, so they'd be able to do their normal thing while also getting some extra benefit they didn't have before.

The argument that I seem to be picking up is that Druids are ok inside demense (albeit reliant on sap). These aren't the final suggestions (I assume), but before tweaking the demense, wouldn't we want to make sure these out-of-demense buffs are well balanced?

EDIT: I don't mean to say that out of demense stuff is the only thing that matters, just that if say demense gets jiggled about first and then the out of demense stuff gets tweaked, and the combination is way too powerful, then things would need to be readjusted again. Besides, it might be easier to balance the demense knowing what the out of demense buffs would be.

BTW, I'm not fond of the RP of viridian form for Lusternia. (Though I am neutral at this time on what it does.)

Just saying! Sometimes it's good to put on the RP glasses and view new skills through the lens of Lusternia.

I think it's generally a even better idea to get the mechanics of an addition down before deciding on what the RP for it should be so that the RP matches the mechanics. We're not even to the first stage yet..

Enyalida:
Deathprophecy is okay, no real comments there, I guess.

I have comments there. It has an incredibly slow and awkward build-up, almost 30 seconds minimum to pull it off from start to finish. If you had somebody already locked down, that's 30 seconds they have to cure out while you sling things that most likely won't help maintain a lock. Or you can try to find a way to hit with all the afflictions you need at once, I sometimes managed that with timing embeded rune with a demesne effect along with beast spit poison and supersling a rune and othala. And I managed that until people realized it was actually possible, and then they just shielded or walked away till the timer ran out. In a group fight, I can almost a guarantee that spamming double haegl so somebody else can manakill is a better use of your balance.

Though I am kind of fond of the fact that with two trans runists it is possible to instantly kill somebody who is in perfect health from a room away.

Estarra:

BTW, I'm not fond of the RP of viridian form for Lusternia. (Though I am neutral at this time on what it does.)

Just saying! Sometimes it's good to put on the RP glasses and view new skills through the lens of Lusternia.

EMBRACE STAG/CROW with Stag/Crowform up, where you become the animal form even more so than just having antlers/feathers. Granting buffs/access to exclusive skills, but disallowing ability to meld and stuff?

That said, I'm not familiar with viridian form. What does it do?

EDIT: Or turn into a big moonhart/ravenwood elder tree. We joke enough about druids pretending to be trees as it it :P