Druids are OK within their demesne IMO.

A potential solution that should make druids very happy.

Allow druids to meld to their cudgel (so only usable without a meld). They can give it one passive effect from the meld, ticks every 10s, hits a single target. With a melded cudgel, druids can also "point cudgel with ".

Demesne effects allowed:
Squirrels
Murder
Spores
Pollen
Thorns ?
Spiders
Swarm
Storm ?

Considering disallowing doubling effects (as in, cannot have swarm imbued AND be casting it actively)
Also unsure about allowing damage mods.. Not sure how much damage potential it would give the druid.

I assume this is meant to provide use outside of demesne, so I'll ignore the comment about no problems in meld.

That wouldn't be particularly useful or provide any offensive power out of meld. Thorns and Storm would be more bleeding or damage. The other effects do as follows:

Squirrels - Dizzy OR ~80 bleeding OR Amnesia
Murder - Blind OR Blacklung OR minor bleeding
Spores - Stupidity OR Dementia OR Hallucinations
Pollen - Asthma
Spiders - Sensitivity OR Chills OR Blind
Swarm - Paraylsis

Of these, the only really useful affliction would be sensitivity which isn't particularly easy to stick or go unnoticed. The druid would still be left without any real strategic point, and no kill. Even on a passive basis, having one of these effects ticking every ten seconds on one target would be TOTALLY underwhelming, and equally pointless. None of the afflictions really work towards any lock, or synergize, none of them are good to have on call or particularly strong on their own. There is a reason that we need sap to get anywhere, and why that's a problem.

I agree that the proposed solution doesn't give druids a clear algorithmic method to kill opponents 1v1.

In combination with beast balance + embedded runes/motes or savvy use of smudges, there is potential to outpace curing. Giving paralysis every staffcast would be pretty nice you have to admit.

If it really is that underwhelming of an upgrade, perhaps a melded cudgel could allow faster EQ on point, which would increase damage output along with affliction rate.

The goal is to stimulate creativity. I realllllly wish it could be coupled with an ability to cast illusions. I think that could be enough.

Edit: What if the illusion dreamweaving mote gave the user the ability to actively ILLUSION each tick instead of its current effect? Much like the way the Cacophony song gives the ability to command each tick.

Shryke:

I agree that the proposed solution doesn't give druids a clear algorithmic method to kill opponents 1v1.

In combination with beast balance + embedded runes/motes or savvy use of smudges, there is potential to outpace curing. Giving paralysis every staffcast would be pretty nice you have to admit.

If it really is that underwhelming of an upgrade, perhaps a melded cudgel could allow faster EQ on point, which would increase damage output along with affliction rate.

The goal is to stimulate creativity. I realllllly wish it could be coupled with an ability to cast illusions. I think that could be enough.

Cannot embed runes/motes outside of a demesne. Paralysis every staff-cast doesn't contribute to any sort of killing method. Damage killing isn't a viable kill method, really. No amount of runes and smudges and motes will outpace curing like this either. Keep in mind that druids currently have a bit of a struggle to outpace curing in their demesne with sap on the target.

For those that have inquired or simply dont know: Viridian form in Achaea is an ability that was created to assist Sylvans outside of their groves (What the grove skill is is simply -many- useful and several strong abilities that could be utilized by the Sylvan and Druid class while they were within their grove, which was in a forest or jungle. However when they left the forest and their grove, their entire skill was mostly useless, much like mage and demesnes I guess?).

Viridian form offered a Sylvan +2 strength, +2 con, -1 dex, and some extra defense. They would gain a new strong attack which was utilized for hunting, it consisted of using thorn covered vines from their arms to tear into their target. They also gained the ability to slit their target's throat to stop them from talking/eating, and also the ability to coat their arms with poisons of their choice OR to secrete their own poison that gave random effects with each hit (Charybdon for us). This damage attack was strength based yes.

Thanks to this form, Sylvan were known as rather good hunters. It also offered up some rather interesting race choices for them in general. Later on they also gained an ability called Vinewreathe which they would wrap vines around their targets limb, making them unable to apply mending/regeneration to it.

P.S: For those that dont know, a Viridian is like a huge creature of the forest, so Sylvan would literally get covered with vines and the earth and become a walking giant green man >.> .

You're right Enyalida. I'm barking up the wrong tree. Disregard, though I do like the idea of melding to the cudgel as it cleanly creates abilities that are useful outside of the demesne.

I can see where you're going with that, but here's what I've heard of 'fixing' druid combat outside demense (feel free to correct)

- Mages are okay because their terts are strong. New terts for druids or changing them to mage terts is not on the table.
- Druids are okay inside demense, so we have to make sure anything we buff outside doesn't push this over.
- We can't buff their current terts too much because other things use them, want to keep the buff druid specific.

So, my interpretation for one possible solution is:
- changing how their tert works should be enough if its close to mage, and it doesn't overall buff the tert if possible.

This is why I suggested the more casting of runes/banes/motes/whatever using the beast. If this is too slow or awkard since the beast is already tied to another skillset and such, or issues with imbuing passives into guild beasts, what if we just attach the ability to the cudgel? So the cudgel could do the same thing as discussed, the balance would be faster (the same as normal slinging/mote throwing/baning), but you'd just get an additional one?

Other ideas:
What about druids and druids only cloaking tertiary effects?
Druids sap their terts so they cure on a delay (you administer the cure, it cures 1s later, like a fast regeneration)?
(taking this idea of demense effects going outside the meld)When Druids use a tert, they get a random demense effect to hit?

The problem with druids in their demesne is that with luck and a good setup, they can be... okay. I can get the majority of people one on one or in small groups. It's a very finicky thing though, that leaves the druid really in a hole compared to other afflocking classes. Any major buff, however, has to run through sap and has the potential to become OP.

Speaking to the out of demesne thing:
Mages are pretty darn good out of demesne with TK. It provides good group utility, good single combat, good affliction building towards a kill, great defense, great hindering, awesome damage (in conjunction with ablaze). Even with TP, you can be a lot of help to a group, and drop ego pretty hard with psyvamp (which is NOT a flat 33%, promise you, it often gets far higher.) techniques.

Outside of demesne, Druid is reduced to flicking memoryloss for dreamweaving, dropping smudges as eco (which is helpful, but not much, honestly) or flinging runes. Of all the tertiaries, runes with deathprophecy has the most chance of succeeding out of demesne, but Lehki spoke to the problems of that earlier. Eternalsleep is just not viable, and ecology has no kill strategy. Making beasts be able to do these things will be nice, but still not give druids any kill method comparable to TK. Having your cudgel additionally do a rune/mote effect has been suggested before, and turned down. I also don't see how it would really provide access to a kill for anyone but runes.

The tertiary effect cloaking (I assume you mean masking here, not actual cloaking) would fall into splitting the tertiaries, not sure how that would fly. For dreamweaving, it wouldn't be any change, for runes, it would help a lot (runes needs a way to masked afflict to be comparable with hexes, been reported more then once now, I think) and for ecology smudges it just doesn't make sense.

You mean introducing another type of sap for tertiaries?

Not sure how this would work, what tertiary effects would have a demesne effect tacked on, what effect, or how that'd work outside of demesne.

EDIT: The short of it is that more minor afflicting would be nice, but druid's one try at killing is sap. Outside of a forest, you can't sap, so all of these things are shiny new ways to get... no where.

Would adding a sort of weaker version of sap for use outside of demense make druids more viable without being over powering? Something akin to lessened delay time, and requires planting a cudgel but is doable on ground elevations outside of demense.

This is obviously just a rough suggestion to throw the idea out there, and I'm sure could use more work assuming its at all viable.

Enyalida:

Even with TP, you can be a lot of help to a group, and drop ego pretty hard with psyvamp (which is NOT a flat 33%, promise you, it often gets far higher.) techniques.

Don't think anyone ever said a flat 33%, but I was told that it varied between 30%-33%, but have seen two instances of a possible bug of it hitting for around 52% ego. As I don't know what actually effects psyvamps drain, I can't really test for a definite answer on the range of draining.

By cloaking, I did mean masking, yes.

I am aware that TK is very powerful, I was trying to sugget things that would help Druids outside of demense more in the fashion of group fights as opposed to 1v1. I figured that masking runes would be a fair bit worse in a group fight, same with say somehow a masked bane or a masked smudge.

By sapped tertiaries, I don't mean a new 'sap', I just meant that say I throw sensitivity at you. You do the cure for it, but it doesn't cure till 1s later (time can be adjusted). So, its sort of like a regen cure, where when you cure say tendon, it cures 4s later. I thought 4s would be a bit much, but i figured even a 1s might help. Of course, now that I think of it, i'm not sure how you could differentiate a druid afflicting you with something and someone else doing the same, blargh.

I see your point with these little things not actually adding a viable kill into Druids. On the other hand, mages have TK/TP but Dreamweaving isn't very viable for kills, but that seems ok. Would it be alright if we just focused on just one of the Druid terts with regards to improving their kill strategy? Like what if we just work on making Death Prophecy easier for druids to pull off (specifically easier for druids and not mages).

AquaNeos:

Don't think anyone ever said a flat 33%, but I was told that it varied between 30%-33%, but have seen two instances of a possible bug of it hitting for around 52% ego. As I don't know what actually effects psyvamps drain, I can't really test for a definite answer on the range of draining.

It's a sort of standard formula involving the mana/int of the caster and the mana/int of the victim, with a base of a certain amount. I think someone has the formula hanging around, one of the admins told it to them a while back.


@Quorre:
I don't really think that making a tertiary hold up a class is okay. Also, druids have no tertiary that's unique, and there have been resounding "no's" to splitting tertiaries. Any change that will be 'unique' to druids has to be in the druidry skillset or it changes some other archetype.

Eh. Mages have TK/TP and can take dreamweaving (or runes) and it's not okay that those last two don't have viable kills for them. That's why you don't see serious combatant mages as anything but TK/TP. I've had long talks with various mages about how dreamweaving/runes are both total joke options for mages. They can't get buffed because of sap, really.

Not one Mage serious about Combat ever takes anything -but- TK (or at times TP). Of the Mages I knew that first started out and insisted on Dreamweaving or Runes, down the road they eventually changed to TK or TP. Im sorry to say but the mechanics of Runes are a bit out-dated and the mechanics of Dreamweaving not as effective (or useful) compared to the great mechanics and synergy that is TK.

TK/TP opened up a whole new avenue to Mage combat. No longer where they restrained to a demesne and meld to be effective outside of it. Heck most mage combatants out there dont even rely on meld anymore to get their kills. They only put a meld up if they need to secure a location down or need to handle larger numbers.

I think if perhaps the Crow and Stag Totems were given some form of extra abilities in the Crowform/Stagform options? Pehaps 3-4 abilities that could be utilized outside of combat but would also work even more better when within their meld? This could also be pushed towards equilibrium and intelligence attributes in an attempt not to buff up warriors (although Crow and Stag warriors could use some extra buffing up on their side, just saying >.>).

I have to say that offering a beast the ability to cast a rune/mote/fetish or smudge is a horrible idea. Spammed memoryloss without a real balance, Easier setups for deathprophesy or spammed impatience with meld and sap, yada yada. Also disagree with making fetish or balance basically passive (own balance).

Personally I think TK should be adjusted to not be so overwhelming that it WOULD require some choice. As is TK is basically a run or die setup, with no real method of preventing it. And the shield to stop it (unlike an actual shield) is a joke with a FAR longer setup than removal. The shield was an attempt of someones to "theory balance" a skill but they made shatter work of psi balance so its a pretty pointless change.

I switched from Dreamweaving years ago after a bad experience with dream body, and Runes would be horrible for me since I have no afflictions to help out with DP. If my meld had actual afflictions, I'd actually switch to Runes in a second.

As a former mage I would actually like to see TK nerfed. Once I found out that I hardly needed to bother with my meld (which I enjoyed using) in order to kill people, I rapidly became disaffected with mage combat. What I would prefer to see is a MAJOR nerf to TK, and extend extend demense effects throughout demense again. With protection scroll and relatively small demense, I don't think that making the Mage classes demense focused again would be a bad thing.

I always felt that mages were intended to use their demense as their primary form of combat, something that became unnecessary against most low/mid tier players with the essentially unstoppable kill method TK provide. Vessels can outpace curing on their own if enemies attempt to stay and fight; you either have to inhibit the mage or flee and heal to have a chance against one. And that's in ADDITION to the absurdity that is ForceField. Not to mention that all of this becomes even sillier inside demense.

Malarious:

Also disagree with making fetish or balance basically passive (own balance).

I don't think it's such a horrible idea as long as you don't allow berserk fetish to work. One extra poison or a 3p bane that lasts 1 min doesn't really seem like that big of a deal. There's definitely plenty of options, I talked it over with Shuy and he originally didn't think it'd be enough (though he agreed berserk would be too much on it's own balance). I guess I'd like to hear your reasons why it would be too much, it's just a little bit more afflicting power than we already have.

I still think you should just convert Empathy in Ecology to a way to tap into psi balance and let fetish hits work on said balances. Pepper in a couple other Eco-flavoured psi balance skills and bam, you have Psionics for droodles.

I like it ^.^

....doubt it will ever go through >.> (must think of ze commune bards)

Arcanis:

I like it ^.^

....doubt it will ever go through >.> (must think of ze commune bards)

just make it druids only, problem solved