lilija:

Will things need to be reconsidered with the implementation of chaosaura? Forcing mana sips (focus mind) or herb balances (pennyroyal) on 50% hits could bring it's own issue into balancing the rest of warriordom without making one spec overly powerful (also, I figure Hallifax will absolutely get timewarp on their hits, so again elixir/herb balance may be an issue). Granted, I haven't seen chaosaura in action and have no idea how effective it is, but this may be something that needs to be considered.

I wouldn't worry about specific skills quite yet. The Special Report changes are, I would think, ones that will effect all warriors equally in one fell swoop (RNG, wounding, what have you).

Once that's done, I imagine it'd be much easier to go through spec- or guild-specific changes in the regular envoy system to address concerns such as ChaosAura, etc., after having established their effectiveness with the Special Report adjustments.

I think all warriors would agree that Solution 2 to Report 630 would alleviate a lot of frustration. Changing armour to not affect wounding, in addition to tweaking the precision/wounding relation to balance such a change, is also a good idea. As it stands, wound building against good splendors or plate is extremely frustrating, since you can only get ahead of the health apply with power abilities, which are limited. This makes getting any affliction above medium very difficult.

The recent change to Bonecrusher's CrushAorta suggests another method of improving warriors. Its change to burst bleeding has actually made a damage kill a viable strategy, which is extremely nice to have as a warrior. It still requires work to pull off, getting chest to critical, more than one needed in quick succession to secure the kill etc., but ensuring a similar damage kill strategy is available for each specialization would be great.

Finally, I've accepted that natural miss is here to stay, but natural miss on power abilities... Please, please, eliminate this.

It is 50%, and so far nobody's has had actual combat experience with it, so there's not a lot to talk about there just yet.

If warrior damage was increased to a reasonable level, wound building would become much easier; the target would have to decide between healing Health or Wounds during every sip balance.

I prefer the idea of having damage through wounding in the form of critical-level afflictions such as Crushaorta and Heartpierce. While regular damage could perhaps use a slight tweak upwards, I quite like warriors being an attrition class as they are now.

The argument that you need damage to offset wound curing applies only to 1v1, and 99% of combat is in groups where it's a non-issue. As I regularly get damage kills in groups now, my concern is that buffing damage too much (with 1v1 in mind) will be going overboard.

If armor stats are separated from wounding (which makes having them useless as they are, just move it to dmp and make it a decent amount), the higher levels of burst wounding from power skills should be drastically toned down. That is, if warriors are able to build wounds at a medium reliable speed, they should not also be able to expend low levels of power to get you up to high wounding. With less defense against wounding, that would get worse as well!

Just want to second Loth and Ush. Damage through affs from building wounds and divorcing wounds from armour stats are the way to go I think.

Re burst wounds and such, I'd imagine they'd pick a baseline for wounds (probably based on highest achievable str and precision) and adjust from there for power attacks and such.

Some combination of:
-Remove misses on power feats
-Report 630 solution 2
-Increase damage scaling with strength (should help everyone, and make fat slow races more viable)

From earlier post:
Some options might be:
1) Significantly lowering the proc rate of parry and stance so that they are still noticeable but not regular; maybe even just by making it so that protecting different areas seriously hampers the effect
For example, if you are parrying head with 100% weight it has the current parry value, but if you are parrying head with 50 and chest with 50 the total effectiveness of your parrying is halved. Three areas is cut by 2/3, 4 by 3/4, etc. Something like that, a significant disincentive to parrying multiple places. Same with stancing.

2) Replace rebounding with another effect.

3) Acrobatics dodge against players is just wonky and needs a re-examination!

4) Reduce armour effectiveness; make armour protect around 3/4 as much as it does now for the current stats against PCs. (Effects people with lower stats less than people with higher)

5) Continue to allow trueshield to affect damage when attacked on a bodypart protected by the shield, but stop having it affect wounds, and/or give warriors some way to knock a gripped 'shield' item out of someone's hand with an inability to rewield it for a short time.

Perhaps replace Rebounding with the Blur effect from Illusions and leave it razeable? That would make it annoying for warriors still, but less centrally so.

Right about....

foolofsound:

Agreed. Even as a Faeling Bard I rarely need worry about warrior Health damage...
I feel that there is zero reason that warrior damage should not be comparable to staffblast/nightkiss/ect. considering that warriors hit with said damage significantly less often.

there.. you lost all merit in your opinion. Since a warrior can hit every 2 seconds and does more than a health apply per hit, you are basically saying they should never have an issues ever building wounds on anyone since every hit with a katana for example would mean you need to apply 3 times to cure wounds but you just took 1000+ damage. This is part of why damage keeps getting nerfed, you need a fine balance and theres alot of ways to boost your damage. ( Quicksilver already acts like blur, which is why you can raze it).

Nothing with high damage does high wounds, nothing with high wounds does high damage. If you had both you are not stoppable. As to what Ixion said like right above me...
-Dodge got another nerf, its fine.
-Stance/parry do still need to have a value, and you cannot make them much better than "negate" an attack.
-The increased accuracy will be a huge boon, and extending much past that seems more likely to unbalance things than bring them in line. I think the armour/precision change is a good one and easier to adjust though in the long run so that I support in addition. Also removes the omni tanks who have like 94 stat cutting robes and trueshield *shiver*.

When we adjust monk weapons as above, unless we heavily modify monk mechanics, I would prefer their wounding levels still be about the same, but we can directly scale more.

P.S. Under this I think strength SHOULD influence damage a little more but be seperated from precision, so we do not have such major outliers.

Malarious:

Right about....



there.. you lost all merit in your opinion. Since a warrior can hit every 2 seconds and does more than a health apply per hit, you are basically saying they should never have an issues ever building wounds on anyone since every hit with a katana for example would mean you need to apply 3 times to cure wounds but you just took 1000+ damage. This is part of why damage keeps getting nerfed, you need a fine balance and theres alot of ways to boost your damage. ( Quicksilver already acts like blur, which is why you can raze it).

Nothing with high damage does high wounds, nothing with high wounds does high damage. If you had both you are not stoppable. As to what Ixion said like right above me...
-Dodge got another nerf, its fine.
-Stance/parry do still need to have a value, and you cannot make them much better than "negate" an attack.
-The increased accuracy will be a huge boon, and extending much past that seems more likely to unbalance things than bring them in line. I think the armour/precision change is a good one and easier to adjust though in the long run so that I support in addition. Also removes the omni tanks who have like 94 stat cutting robes and trueshield *shiver*.

When we adjust monk weapons as above, unless we heavily modify monk mechanics, I would prefer their wounding levels still be about the same, but we can directly scale more.

P.S. Under this I think strength SHOULD influence damage a little more but be seperated from precision, so we do not have such major outliers.

Nitpick- If max prec, it's more like every 3 seconds almost with +bonus speed races. If you have half decent robes, it can be less than 1 full apply per regular hit.

Anyhow agreed, removing robes outliers absolutely needs to happen. People with 80 single stat (as an example, I've seen higher) robes needs to go just like plate outliers were removed.

So currently, a robe wearer is in a pretty bad situation (which forces them to engage in a lot of hindering or, simply, run away) after an artied up warrior dumps some power on them. After these changes, ... ?

My max speed hunting katana is roughly 2.5 seconds balance time.

And I would prefer if there's a change to how armor works its either 1) make armor not impact wounding or 2) add diminishing returns to armor so the low level armor gives the same amount, but plate, ubersplender, etc are lowered. Much like how dmp or stat buffing scales.

Malarious:

Right about....
there.. you lost all merit in your opinion. Since a warrior can hit every 2 seconds and does more than a health apply per hit, you are basically saying they should never have an issues ever building wounds on anyone since every hit with a katana for example would mean you need to apply 3 times to cure wounds but you just took 1000+ damage. This is part of why damage keeps getting nerfed, you need a fine balance and theres alot of ways to boost your damage. ( Quicksilver already acts like blur, which is why you can raze it).

I MEANT that a warrior with a weapon specced for damage should be able to hit for non-warrior levels of damage, since their wounding will be much lower. Are you certain that Quicksilver acts as Blur? I remember reading that razing Quicksilver was Achean legacy code, and that Quicksilver has no visible difference on dodge rates.

Here it is, though it may have changed since then; it is an old post.

Malarious:

So based on testing from Bashara..

This myth is busted

As such... we need to remove quicksilver from being on the raze list so we can give it some use for electric resist >.>

Full topic is here

The 'speed' defense does indeed make a difference, though a relatively small one. It's not a myth, but I agree that it could be removed!

Just like in the demigod thread, I really don't think the admin would like to completely change things unless they can help it, so we probably can't talk about deleting quicksilver/rebounding and whatnot.

Likewise, let's try and avoid discussing skills that aren't specifically related to warriors like terts, acrobatics, etc. Out of the scope of the report and can be addressed in envoys.

P.S. Gonna update the first post with the suggestions so far soon.

I wasn't really suggesting removing quicksilver or even the razing of it, just the effect it has on warrior attacks.

I've gotten around to summarizing all the ideas so far, let me know if I've missed anything.

What if we did a combination of divorcing armour stats from wounding, changed the swing percentages around, altered combatstyles once again (this part will be the most complicated I feel), and found some way to nerf group combat warriors. Would that accomplish what we're trying to do here?

Let me know.

Zarquan:

I wasn't really suggesting removing quicksilver or even the razing of it, just the effect it has on warrior attacks.

I agree with this. It needs to go out the window. For those who don't know, quicksilver actually does affect accuracy.

I also think "dex dodge" needs looking at. The phenomenon where I strike at you and you're not stancing, though you still dodge my attack. In fact, I think the role of dexterity in these things needs a little revision and maybe standardization. For non-warrior classes, it's very easy to just dump strength and have as much dexterity as possible and laugh away at people.


Divorcing armour stats from wounding is not something I'm a very big fan of at all, but I can see its merits. Equalizing things more in general could help problems, especially at the lower spectrum, where non-demigod-unruned-warriors suffer. I do think this one might be the most complicated to fix since now we need to find a way to redistribute the wounding. But the idea would open it up to be at least possible now.

I honestly think acrobatics dodge is a million times better now than it ever has been. I understand that it still acts like a "layer" to get through on top of everything and is still a major pain, but at the same time, it's almost fine now in comparison to what it used to be and may be at the best it's going to get.

I think making rebounding at least require herb balance would be a good change, even if minor, though I'd prefer it to take it as well. I realize this would benefit monks as well, who don't really need a change there. Increasing the timer a little might help too.

*As for Malarious' anecdotes, I have yet to see any warrior hit at 2 seconds per combo and still build wounds well. Most people invest a healthy amount of precision, and the average warrior would start at around 3 seconds. I can say I tried a brief stint of high-speed-low precision and it really wasn't worth it on most people.

Either we need ways to get rid of shields, or trueshield needs looking at. It really is way too strong.

I may be the only warrior who doesn't agree that we need more damage. My only gripe with it is rune of absorption, which will never change now and is probably a relic from back in the day when warrior damage was too much or just icing on the cake. I'd support giving us more damagetypes, maybe even something like solution 2 in report 697, to make it so that RoA has less of an effect.

and:

Finally, I've accepted that natural miss is here to stay, but natural miss on power abilities... Please, please, eliminate this.

+1


EDIT: Also, I could get behind nerfing group warriors if they became stronger 1v1. But as they are now, it's not justified.

Related to Warrior Mechanics:
-Introduce the aforementioned new stancing thing, wherein you can trade off different qualities of warrior combat to buff others. Wound phase (high damage, high wounds, low afflicting, low chance to hit, perhaps), affliction/lock phase (low damage, low wounding, high to-hit, high to-aff), kill phase (high damage, high to hit, low wounds, low to-aff), for instance. These would also be percentage type things with diminishing returns, and you HAVE to be in some sort of style to fight, even the neutral one.

Related to Group Combat:
-Make wounding scale down in an exponential way based on the number of people in the room, to the point of being ineffective in group fights.

I'm in favour of the Potential Solutions in the first post, with the exception of these two.

I'm not a fan of what I think is an overcomplicated combatstyle change, and would prefer to see the current combatstyles modified to make a more meaningful difference and perhaps see more variation. (I think most people use concentrated now. Could we look to making lightning faster, aggressive more damaging, etc. to at least make them an option vs. concentrated, as opposed to changing entirely to a "phase" system?) In any case, if the other proposed solutions are implemented, I don't think a phase system would be necessary at all.

As to the second point, I agree to the scaling down of wounds, but I'd rather it not be to the point of ineffectiveness. That's just no fun! Tone it down, sure, but I'd prefer remaining an attrition/affliction (with damage through critical-level afflictions) class than a damage class (which is what the suggestion proposed - more damage in exchange for ineffective wounds in groups.)