Ixion2011-11-03 06:06:17
They do, but posting immediately after a fight where you jump into meld against superior numbers puts your intent into question.
Unknown2011-11-03 06:11:48
Superior numbers just exacerbates it, but doesn't mean that group warrior damage (especially, though other group damages exist) isn't an issue.
Sidd2011-11-03 06:11:54
Ixion:
They do, but posting immediately after a fight where you jump into meld against superior numbers puts your intent into question.
Not really, Warriors in groups has been an issue that's been brought up in this very thread before said fight.
Ixion2011-11-03 06:14:55
I suppose people only read after "they do."
They do means, yes they do, just like many other combinations that are/were/could be addressed.
They do means, yes they do, just like many other combinations that are/were/could be addressed.
Unknown2011-11-03 06:19:35
Yes, we got that. However, the words following "They do," seems to imply that people are asking for warrior changes out of sheer frustration, which they are not.
Enyalida2011-11-03 06:22:07
Being frustrated about something does not make your concern any less valid.
Vadi2011-11-03 07:06:20
I believe my tone was rather reasonable, and I only raised a point that I raised earlier elsewhere in these threads - after a period of inactivity to make sure something was going to address this.
So Ixion let's be civil and not degrade posts with outside factors.
So Ixion let's be civil and not degrade posts with outside factors.
Unknown2011-11-03 12:51:19
Sure, but like I said before, "You first." Warrior is not the only archetype that works well in a group.
You're also overlooking, I think, the obstacles a warrior faces in trying to strike his target.
You're also overlooking, I think, the obstacles a warrior faces in trying to strike his target.
Rivius2011-11-03 13:27:21
I'm really surprised this is being made to be such a major issue when fewer telepaths can bomb you in literally 2 seconds, any number of damage classes can concentrate and take out a demigod, and 2-3 wiccans can toad you before you realized what happened etc. I'm really unconvinced warriors stack that much better than any other class out there, and I'm also a little mind boggled about this mention of outliers. Have I been living in an alternate universe from you, where you see high stat warriors have no problems and don't lag behind other classes? If you want to nerf warriors in group combat, it isn't fair that they don't stack as well as everyone else, nor would it be fair if no compensations are made to make them more viable 1v1. So far I'm seeing a lot of suggestions to nerf them in groups as if this is their central problem, when the reality is that they're no less manageable that a group of any other class. Suggest fixes to our struggles and maybe the suggestions to nerf us might be merited and somewhat less ludicrous.
Xenthos2011-11-03 13:42:14
Vadi:
Not much has been said to the issue of warriors in groups so far, who scale amazingly well for behead instakills.
I understand that this was mentioned in further depth by Rivius, but... is this really any different than ego-bombing, or multi-vessel-bursting, or any of a number of effects that scale amazingly well in group combat?
Sidd2011-11-03 14:13:47
Here's the major difference between warriors stacking and other things stacking in groups
With mana-draining, ego draining or even just going straight damage, is multiple cures. You have sip/sparkle/scroll/beast/natural regen/other regen sources etc.
There is one cure for wounds, that's applying health. In groups, even if you're taking damage as well as being mana drained, you have sparkle and scroll which cure both. If you are getting vesseled, sipping and sparkle cures both health AND vessels. Sparkle and scroll especially help cure health/mana/ego so even if you are being damaged AND mana-drained, you can still deal with both.
Wounds has no such luck and that's why the are different. Warriors rely on you sipping health over applying health. If you have three warriors hacking down while guardians are hindering (no stance/parry), and mages are staffcasting and multiple other damages are being dealt to you. You can't cure health AND wounds by using the same cures. I know what you're about to say next, Why not apply and use all these other health curing things to cure health. I do that already, I don't start sipping health until I'm at 40% (or I have a lot of vessels) and I rarely die to straight damage. But even with applying health that much, I'm at behead level in one or two rounds if the group is coordinating well.
As I said earlier Rivius, I think the majority of people agree that many group-stacking things need to be looked at. I think finding a workable solution in one instance then opens up it being applied across the board. I'm well aware of obstacles that warriors face 1v1, but most solutions to fix that get shot down due to group effect of warriors, and changing them to not be as horrible in groups, would definitely open them up to gaining more 1v1 viability. I think mana-draining, ego-bombing, vessel-stacking should all be looked at and I think the majority of the game agrees, we just need to get that ball rolling somewhere. I think warriors are a good start.
With mana-draining, ego draining or even just going straight damage, is multiple cures. You have sip/sparkle/scroll/beast/natural regen/other regen sources etc.
There is one cure for wounds, that's applying health. In groups, even if you're taking damage as well as being mana drained, you have sparkle and scroll which cure both. If you are getting vesseled, sipping and sparkle cures both health AND vessels. Sparkle and scroll especially help cure health/mana/ego so even if you are being damaged AND mana-drained, you can still deal with both.
Wounds has no such luck and that's why the are different. Warriors rely on you sipping health over applying health. If you have three warriors hacking down while guardians are hindering (no stance/parry), and mages are staffcasting and multiple other damages are being dealt to you. You can't cure health AND wounds by using the same cures. I know what you're about to say next, Why not apply and use all these other health curing things to cure health. I do that already, I don't start sipping health until I'm at 40% (or I have a lot of vessels) and I rarely die to straight damage. But even with applying health that much, I'm at behead level in one or two rounds if the group is coordinating well.
As I said earlier Rivius, I think the majority of people agree that many group-stacking things need to be looked at. I think finding a workable solution in one instance then opens up it being applied across the board. I'm well aware of obstacles that warriors face 1v1, but most solutions to fix that get shot down due to group effect of warriors, and changing them to not be as horrible in groups, would definitely open them up to gaining more 1v1 viability. I think mana-draining, ego-bombing, vessel-stacking should all be looked at and I think the majority of the game agrees, we just need to get that ball rolling somewhere. I think warriors are a good start.
Unknown2011-11-03 14:54:35
I disagree very much that "warriors are a good start." Parry, stance, and rebounding are all effective defenses against warrior wounds, even in groups. You fix those other group "bombs" first, and maybe then there will be a leg on which to stand here.
Sidd2011-11-03 14:59:57
Zarquan:
I disagree very much that "warriors are a good start." Parry, stance, and rebounding are all effective defenses against warrior wounds, even in groups. You fix those other group "bombs" first, and maybe then there will be a leg on which to stand here.
I'm not opposed to starting elsewhere, I think if your group can't keep someone hindered enough to negate parry/stancing then that lies on your group. Any simple prone negates it, from webbing to paralysis, to stuns, to sprawls. It's pretty easy to get around in groups not to mention powermoves simply bypass them all.
Unknown2011-11-03 15:07:15
I don't think that the philosophy of "You first." is a helpful one. While it would be nice to see an envoy report about said stacking as a gesture of goodwill, I believe that the more we do to combat instadeath stacking in groups, the better our group combat experience will be. I genuinely hope that Sidd is serious about looking at manadrain, vessels, egobombing, wound stacking, entangle stacking+timekill, even mere damage stacking in order to make group combat less a exercise in Separate Group->Instagank.
Vadi2011-11-03 21:50:06
With a group of warriors, obstacles are typically removed very quickly by proning the target and keeping them so.
Daevos2011-11-13 00:48:31
I'm co-signing Jello's rebounding comments. In the other games, rebounding was understandable. Here, it is just another variable that only serves to distort the perception of warrior effectiveness.
I could list them all, but that's been done too many times to count.
Oh, scaling warrior offense in groups is a horrible idea. In fact, there is too much scaling already in the game. It has been used as a simple solution to complex problems.
I could list them all, but that's been done too many times to count.
Oh, scaling warrior offense in groups is a horrible idea. In fact, there is too much scaling already in the game. It has been used as a simple solution to complex problems.
Malarious2011-11-24 18:55:41
I am all for changing double haegl (like we did with constellation from astrolog), and in report 301 we did try to remove telebombing, which I think we just need to change the solution to addess. As a note I would not call "hinder stacking/insta" a problem, you can still tumble out regardless.
I still see merit in trying to reduce wounds as warriors pile you. You should be able to be hit by say 2 warriors normally, then if someone else tries it should start degrading (say 80% normal effect per warrior?). As Vadi said right now a small cluster of warriors can very readily behead, the only unreliable part is the swing itself, and you all plan to change that already.
My proposed solutions list:
- Divorce armor and wound reduction. This will need alot of fine tuning.
- Minor increase to damage based on strength. I mean maybe 400 for like max damage with high str.
- I am fine with removing rebounding, although this plays into WPS, so this could be a bigger issue than expected.
Rebounding tends to make a warrior burn power or raze, in the case of razing you buy like a second and a half the warrior is not hitting, this is factored into the wounds per second over the course of the fight. If you increase the basic wounds per second AND divorce armor at the same time then you will have to balance them at the same time. That would mean LOWER wounding in exchange for no rebounding.
I still see merit in trying to reduce wounds as warriors pile you. You should be able to be hit by say 2 warriors normally, then if someone else tries it should start degrading (say 80% normal effect per warrior?). As Vadi said right now a small cluster of warriors can very readily behead, the only unreliable part is the swing itself, and you all plan to change that already.
My proposed solutions list:
- Divorce armor and wound reduction. This will need alot of fine tuning.
- Minor increase to damage based on strength. I mean maybe 400 for like max damage with high str.
- I am fine with removing rebounding, although this plays into WPS, so this could be a bigger issue than expected.
Rebounding tends to make a warrior burn power or raze, in the case of razing you buy like a second and a half the warrior is not hitting, this is factored into the wounds per second over the course of the fight. If you increase the basic wounds per second AND divorce armor at the same time then you will have to balance them at the same time. That would mean LOWER wounding in exchange for no rebounding.
Ushaara2011-11-25 02:34:06
To be honest, I think rebounding is fine as it is. There is a hugely noticeable difference when your opponent does not use it, and removing it would skew warrior combat too much in the OP direction. In any case 2-handers can just cleave/swing to barely notice it, and razing for 1-handers isn't exactly a huge issue for anyone who tracks smoking.
On divorcing armour from wounds, I'm inclined towards making it have a DMP style effect instead for a less drastic change. Normal 50/50-ish greatrobes are fine as they are, but for every 10 points of armour above, be it plate/splendors/tattoos, my wounds are reduced by 100 points or so. This leaves health applies instantly curing a body part, and getting and staying above medium wounding an exercise in exhaustion.
Regarding warriors stacking, I won't deny they stack well together but then this is true of every class. I have been in fights with people draining mana with someone else on constant shieldstunning which led to a mana kill that would rival any 'insta-behead.' Without a mechanic that limits the number of people who can attack you at a time (which would bring its own balance problems), I feel this is a case of 'better the devil you know.'
On divorcing armour from wounds, I'm inclined towards making it have a DMP style effect instead for a less drastic change. Normal 50/50-ish greatrobes are fine as they are, but for every 10 points of armour above, be it plate/splendors/tattoos, my wounds are reduced by 100 points or so. This leaves health applies instantly curing a body part, and getting and staying above medium wounding an exercise in exhaustion.
Regarding warriors stacking, I won't deny they stack well together but then this is true of every class. I have been in fights with people draining mana with someone else on constant shieldstunning which led to a mana kill that would rival any 'insta-behead.' Without a mechanic that limits the number of people who can attack you at a time (which would bring its own balance problems), I feel this is a case of 'better the devil you know.'
Lothringen2011-11-25 22:53:30
I agree with the concept of diminishing returns for multiple warriors/telepaths/whatever other omgwtf combination; however, I don't think it should be implemented unless all classes receive the same treatment. It would be unfair to treat warriors this way and leave everything else as-is.
Chade2011-12-04 14:47:36
Posted this in another thread since I didn't see this one. Oops.
I've been thinking about warrior combat and the fact that I gain far less enjoyment from it since returning.
Personally I really miss stun on knockdown to hinder curing slightly but I doubt that's coming back so I've been thinking of some other suggestions that could be implemented quickly/simply without having to mess with the base damage/wounding of warriors. I should add that I'm not suggesting all of these are implemented, only that one is picked to see if it improves warrior combat a little. Of course, what seems like a simple implementation might not be that easy to code.
1.) New poison which gives Impatience
Simple implement which doesn't require much/any coding but I'm more concerned about it being too powerful for monks. Would help with sticking paralysis but would only be really useful when combined with senso/chansu + windpipe or slitthroat. With resilience based shrugging and the fact that poisons aren't guaranteed to hit anyway it would still require a pretty nice blessing from the RNG to stick senso/chansu/impatience with windpipe or slitthroat. Shouldn't make templars OP as impatience still allows for focus mind.
2.) Targeted swings on a longer balance recovery and/or lower wounds < - my personal favourite
There's nothing worse than doing a smitedown when you've got your target at heavy/critical headwounds and missing that bashbrain because the RNG decided you should hit their chest. Instead I'm suggesting a form of targeted swing, similar to jab i.e. swing chade head for a swing at the head. On the other hand, I think having targeted swings at the same balance rate as a jab would make warriors too good. To counter this somewhat I'd suggest increasing the balance time on a targeted swing by 20% and possibly reducing wounding given on a targeted swing by 15-20% as well (or increasing balance time to +30-35% on a targeted swing but not touch wounding). These swings would obviously still take into account natural miss/parry/stance/dodging/rebounding/shield in the same way as jab. You'd also still be able to retain the attacks in BASHING and SLASHING as these would still give swing attacks at the same balance rate/wounding as jab with the RNG element still intact. Justify this skill by saying its harder to set up a targeted swing and therefore requires more balance and gives slightly less wounds.
3.) New combatstyle - FOCUSED < - hardest to code I'd think and don't like it that much
Combat style which gives a slight loss of speed (or damage/wounding) in return for removing natural miss rate and giving a 5-10% advantage against stance. No advantage against parry. I think this may be hard to code as I believe that the natural miss rate is a holdover from Achaea and is a pain to code around/remove (I may be wrong about this).
4.) Increase rub rate on poisons to 80%-100% for warriors only
Increase the rub rate for poisons coming from a warriors weapon (not monks) based on your skill in your specialisation. Effectively add a line to the first skill you receive in your specialisation (i.e. Bonecrush) which states that your ability to deliver poisons from your weapon will increase as your skill in your specialisation increases (in the same way that your miss rate is reduced). Start off at the base rub rate for weapons and increase it by a given amount on each skillrank until you reach around 80-100% at transcendent. You'd still have to deal with natural shrugging and could maybe tweak the tracking skill PoisonExpert to increase the potency of poisons instead so that shrugging is reduced by 10% or replace it with a skill which gives trackers some extra DMP against poison damage or increased shrugging etc.
Comments definitely welcome.
Chade
I've been thinking about warrior combat and the fact that I gain far less enjoyment from it since returning.
Personally I really miss stun on knockdown to hinder curing slightly but I doubt that's coming back so I've been thinking of some other suggestions that could be implemented quickly/simply without having to mess with the base damage/wounding of warriors. I should add that I'm not suggesting all of these are implemented, only that one is picked to see if it improves warrior combat a little. Of course, what seems like a simple implementation might not be that easy to code.
1.) New poison which gives Impatience
Simple implement which doesn't require much/any coding but I'm more concerned about it being too powerful for monks. Would help with sticking paralysis but would only be really useful when combined with senso/chansu + windpipe or slitthroat. With resilience based shrugging and the fact that poisons aren't guaranteed to hit anyway it would still require a pretty nice blessing from the RNG to stick senso/chansu/impatience with windpipe or slitthroat. Shouldn't make templars OP as impatience still allows for focus mind.
2.) Targeted swings on a longer balance recovery and/or lower wounds < - my personal favourite
There's nothing worse than doing a smitedown when you've got your target at heavy/critical headwounds and missing that bashbrain because the RNG decided you should hit their chest. Instead I'm suggesting a form of targeted swing, similar to jab i.e. swing chade head for a swing at the head. On the other hand, I think having targeted swings at the same balance rate as a jab would make warriors too good. To counter this somewhat I'd suggest increasing the balance time on a targeted swing by 20% and possibly reducing wounding given on a targeted swing by 15-20% as well (or increasing balance time to +30-35% on a targeted swing but not touch wounding). These swings would obviously still take into account natural miss/parry/stance/dodging/rebounding/shield in the same way as jab. You'd also still be able to retain the attacks in BASHING and SLASHING as these would still give swing attacks at the same balance rate/wounding as jab with the RNG element still intact. Justify this skill by saying its harder to set up a targeted swing and therefore requires more balance and gives slightly less wounds.
3.) New combatstyle - FOCUSED < - hardest to code I'd think and don't like it that much
Combat style which gives a slight loss of speed (or damage/wounding) in return for removing natural miss rate and giving a 5-10% advantage against stance. No advantage against parry. I think this may be hard to code as I believe that the natural miss rate is a holdover from Achaea and is a pain to code around/remove (I may be wrong about this).
4.) Increase rub rate on poisons to 80%-100% for warriors only
Increase the rub rate for poisons coming from a warriors weapon (not monks) based on your skill in your specialisation. Effectively add a line to the first skill you receive in your specialisation (i.e. Bonecrush) which states that your ability to deliver poisons from your weapon will increase as your skill in your specialisation increases (in the same way that your miss rate is reduced). Start off at the base rub rate for weapons and increase it by a given amount on each skillrank until you reach around 80-100% at transcendent. You'd still have to deal with natural shrugging and could maybe tweak the tracking skill PoisonExpert to increase the potency of poisons instead so that shrugging is reduced by 10% or replace it with a skill which gives trackers some extra DMP against poison damage or increased shrugging etc.
Comments definitely welcome.
Chade