Keep in mind also that poisons can be used by any class, given beast spit. So I'm a bit iffy about the impatience one for sure.

Your suggestion on rub-rates and poison expert are ones I agree with definitely.

Good point on beast spit, hadn't considered it. Maybe a warrior only poison or even a warrior skill in athletics say WARCRY which prevents a person from being able to focus body (due to being scared ###less) with its own (long) cooldown that requires equilibrium and balance but doesn't consume either. Have it as a simple cure, say smoking coltsfoot which is the same as Impatience. That way it prevents windpipe alone from blocking the cure. Could also give Rubeus/Wolf Totem a 33% chance to block it so its similar to resilience shrugging and prevent it from working if you've got an affliction which prevents talking.

Another potential change for focuspoisons is to convert some of the damage type of the weapon to poison. There's already a few skills in the other terts that do this.

Oo nice new skill idea as well:

Give warriors an ability in Knighthood or Athletics that allows them to view the wound state on one particular limb. Make it require balance and equilibrium but not consume them and give it a 1 second cooldown to prevent someone using it multiple times instantly. Would be nice to know that the limb you're working on is at medium/heavy/critical when aiming for a mangle/amputate/behead.

There's assess for that :P Though you'll find that the cool-down time means it isn't really worth using unless you're an axelord.

Assess consumes equilibrium and gives you wounds on all limbs. This skill wouldn't consume equilibrium.

Could also make discern show wounds instead.

I took it as a "improve Assess" more than "your idea is bad."

Some of us were discussing envoying assess to not consume eq. I could put that through this cycle if people like the idea. I think that's fair since, as you said, discern and contemplate don't take anything.

Yeah, I'd be good with assess not consuming equilibrium. Or making discern show wounds. Considering neither contemplate and discern require equilibrium I think there's a good case for it as well.

Envoy away!

Rivius:

Some of us were discussing envoying assess to not consume eq. I could put that through this cycle if people like the idea. I think that's fair since, as you said, discern and contemplate don't take anything.

I don't really think envoying this is needed. Warrior affs are pretty good indicators of wound levels, all you have to do is pay attention to what affs you're giving and you have a pretty good shot at guessing what wound levels are. Things like insanity and timewarp and burn levels dont have any kind of corresponding messages to let you guess so I understand why those were added but wounds are pretty easy to determine.

I'd still rather have the specifics than make an educated guess based on wounds and an RNG that can throw out a medium aff immediately after I land a heavy aff (i.e. blackeye then fractureskull on a double smitedown). The vast majority of other classes have the ability to accurately determine if their instakill/specific ability (i.e. truename) is viable through a free mechanism such as contemplate (insanity/timewarp/manakill etc). If assess didn't consume equilibrium I'd do it before every attack, much in the same way I contemplate before each attack to track insanity levels. I'd gag the output and feed it to a window so I could track wound levels. Would be extremely useful for knowing when to go for that mangle and when to keep building wounds.

Chade:

I'd still rather have the specifics than make an educated guess based on wounds and an RNG that can throw out a medium aff immediately after I land a heavy aff (i.e. blackeye then fractureskull on a double smitedown). The vast majority of other classes have the ability to accurately determine if their instakill/specific ability (i.e. truename) is viable through a free mechanism such as contemplate (insanity/timewarp/manakill etc). If assess didn't consume equilibrium I'd do it before every attack, much in the same way I contemplate before each attack to track insanity levels. I'd gag the output and feed it to a window so I could track wound levels. Would be extremely useful for knowing when to go for that mangle and when to keep building wounds.

The difference being that doing normal attacks on someone doesn't even give you a clue to what level their insanity/timewarp/mana levels etc are at. That's why those have skills that let you know what they are at and warriors don't, because hitting affs gives you a pretty good estimate, if you one-shot a tendon and see them apply health, it's a pretty good guess they aren't at heavy wounds anymore. Sure it'd be nice, but it's far from necessary due to how warriors work.

Seems silly that Discern and Contemplate don't use your balances, but Assess does. I'm all for changing it for no other reason than bringing it in line with them, and if it helps out warriors, awesome.

Shuyin mentioned somewhere I've already forgotten that he was looking for a bit more discussion in the class threads, so while I'm personally hoping for the combination of Solution 2 to Report 630, a DMP-style armour effect, and no misses on power attacks; here is another potential change that could also help warriors.

If your target already has a certain heavy wound affliction say, but not the light or medium afflictions, if the RNG roll would give the same uncured heavy wound, have it afflict with the next lowest applicable wound affliction, rather than just giving the same uncured aff (which is essentially just a wound building attack, since you can't really stack the same affliction with itself).

An example for clarity! With a bit of wounding already built up, as a Bonecrusher I can double crush head and often land CrushWindpipe with both hits of the combo. Rather than the second hit also giving CrushWindpipe, have it deliver the next lowest affliction (if it is not already there), which in this example would be BreakJaw if I remember my AB list correctly. As such, the change would help add a bit more curing pressure.

This would naturally be a more noticeable buff for 1-handed specialisations, but should still be applicable for 2-handers with their regen cured affs. So for example, rather than landing LegTendon twice and having the regen apply from the first curing the tendon near instantaneously on its second delivery, you'd receive a PierceLeg/LacerateLeg until the tendon is cured, or land the amputate etc.

(Disregard that last bit if the regen apply timer is reset with the second delivery, but I don't think it is so...)

It isn't reset, no.

And that does sound like a very good idea.

I think I like most of the ideas compiled in the front page, but after thinking on it, perhaps rebounding should remain the way it is. The big issue is armour, which I believe needs to be looked at as suggested. I'm not a fan of divorcing wound protection from armour, but I do like the idea of adding very large diminishing returns on it so that what is currently deemed to be "manageable but offering good protection" becomes more or less as good as you get with any improvements being negligible. I'm very sorry for tattoo armour but that honestly shouldn't exist in its current incarnation and should probably be given other buffs to make up for it.

Raising the floor I'm also definitely in support of.

(I think poison delivery should also be 100% given the massive shrug rate and PoisonExpert be given another effect).

If we're going to mess with wounds/armour, lets not go with half measures on this one. Either divorce wound mechanics from armour entirely, or leave it as is. Anything in between is just another variable to abuse/confuse and balance.

If we do divorce the concepts, my biggest concern is properly balancing what baseline wounding is, and what can effect it. It would be a large project, if it were done correctly.

Also, I agree about the poison delivery rate vs. shrug rate. However, if the delivery rate is set to 100% for knights, then it should also be set to such for any other attack that it impacts. Clarity and consistency are our friends moving forward.

I don't like divorcing armor stats from wounds completely without changing everything about physical. If it becomes physical damage resistance only, why not shift it into dmp (1) and (2), why would it be okay to have warriors be just as squishy to warriors/monks as everyone else on average. It'd just be more physical resistance which everyone avoids like the plague anyways. I know that I totally abhor my lameo cutting/blunt staffpoint.

I'm fairly cool with removing poison rubbing though, make keeneye detect if they get hit or shrug the affliction (which makes it actually useful, whoo). With your keen eyes, you see the telltale changes in their physiology that are indicative of poisoning. That merian went a little green about the gills and so on. No one else really has to worry about rubbing, except monks who don't need poisons as much, by far.

If you do not see where a monk would rely on poisons I think we may need to get you some new glasses.

(Especially as I am in a monk guild BASED on poisons)

Compared to warriors, there is less emphasis on REQUIRING poisons for monks. You can do high enough damage output without poisons, tbh. Having skills that facilitate poisons doesn't mean that your entire class is totally dependent on them. The addition of poisons is nice for a bit of cure stacking, but let's be honest here. You don't kill with afflocks or herbcure stacking, you kill by massive damage.

To try my best not to derail here, I don't see any strong argument about why the delivery rate is an equal problem for monks. It just looks like you're trying to gain the same benefit out of personal convenience. Monks have a generally much stronger affliction output, have decent options against different classes and generally don't find themselves to be as gimped as warriors by the iffy rub rate. You don't often hear a monk complain about it, and I honestly don't think monks necessarily need it 'just because warriors would get it too'. They're different classes, and should be considered differently, and trying to share properties between the two has always been disastrous (see: Ixion's concerns on upgrading hemiplegia because it would be too strong for monks).

Besides, I'd like it if we kept the discussion of monk buffs in their own thread, thank you.