I did not say if we did or did not need it for monks, I made note that thinking monks don't need poisons is wrong.

With good curing you will not die to monk damage generally, specially when we have nerfed ourselves more than once to adjust the DPS.

Monks rely on poisons more than you seem to know as most tend to have to rely on some sort of combination to prone or stop curing which requires poisons. As it is monks have a lower poison transfer rate because we have laughable levels of wounding.

Rainydays:

If we're going to mess with wounds/armour, lets not go with half measures on this one. Either divorce wound mechanics from armour entirely, or leave it as is. Anything in between is just another variable to abuse/confuse and balance.

If we do divorce the concepts, my biggest concern is properly balancing what baseline wounding is, and what can effect it. It would be a large project, if it were done correctly.

Also, I agree about the poison delivery rate vs. shrug rate. However, if the delivery rate is set to 100% for knights, then it should also be set to such for any other attack that it impacts. Clarity and consistency are our friends moving forward.

I think divorcing wound mechanics from armour entirely would be a bit overkill. We are quite close to a good level of balance already. Against normal robes, building wounds is quite straightforward, and so long as you can keep someone from running, you're well on your way to securing a kill.

I would argue it is only the upper spectrum of armour that needs to be toned down slightly, i.e. plate/tattoo armour/splendors. It's been a while since I last tested properly, but it seemed that every extra 10 points of armour was ~100 less wounds per hit. So where a double strike (crush) with 20 str and 250 precision hammer will do ~1,200 (2000) wounds vs. 60 stat robes; against someone with armour of ~80, double strikes can be pretty much instantly cured (applies seem to be for ~825 cured), and building wounds becomes contingent on limited power moves. So with the usual hurdles of natural miss/stance/parry/rebounding/RNG roll for affs/any hindering at all added in for extra effect, this quickly adds up to being pretty damned frustrating.

I would hope that changing to DMP style armour would mean bonded plate of ~100 would be about equivalent to current 80 scaling, 50-60 armour staying more or less as they are now, and splendors, tattoo armour and plate scaled so that there is still -some- wounding left after a double strike, so attrition would slowly allow for possibility of kill, rather than the die-or-draw scenario that it seems to be now.

This change would invariably also require looking at how monk damage scales with wounding. I agree with Malarious that current monk damage is tolerable, so long as you don't let wounds build up. But when ~5k damage becomes possible with a bit of wounding, if we're changing towards easier wounding, monk damage scaling needs to be kept in mind.

On transfer of poisons, I'm a bit more ambivalent. Would certainly be nice to have better ease and clarity in their transfer, but doesn't seem to be a big enough issue to be considered in this report? Perhaps envoying Keeneye could be goer instead?

It would be REALLY NIFTY if Keeneye told all people who use poisons if that poison was shrugged or not! As is, it's not a particularly useful defense (is it?) because you still don't know if the poison has been shrugged.

It's intent was just to let us know when a poison has been removed from the weapon, and that's all it does. It is useful information for me, at least.

Keeneye is pretty great because it lets you set up more efficient re-envenoming systems.

I'm not too sold on adjusting shrug rate for warriors only. If anything, I'd rather we examine Resilience giving poison shrugging as a whole then make changes from there.

Sojiro:

Keeneye is pretty great because it lets you set up more efficient re-envenoming systems.

I really should do this, I hate my current setup. :(

Yep, all it takes is two different weapons in each hand if you're really lazy!

Sojiro:

Yep, all it takes is two different weapons in each hand if you're really lazy!

If you arent lazy warriors can also use the fact you see which arm loses balance first to still make it perfectly efficient. Monks would be more complex or use diff weapons like I do.

Hi,

I'm being urged to get this report done, so I'm going to start putting up preliminary suggestions for this part of the report now. I intend to submit the entire report by the end of next week at the latest. I'm making these suggestions after taking envoy suggestions in mind and having done a review of this thread once again.

So, without further adieu:

Warriors:

-Add diminishing returns (like DMP) to armour stats for wound reduction, have stats over 65-70 begin to start giving smaller benefits to wound reduction, with stats over 100 giving (almost) no benefit at all.

-Remove the natural miss on power abilities like lunge, crush, etc.

-Alter the hit percentages of knighthood slashing/bashing - Change hack down|ups to 75%head/25%chest and 75%gut/25%leg, slash to 66%leg,17%gut/17%chest, swipe to 66%chest/17%gut/17%arm, slice to 66%arm/17%chest/17%gut, doing the same for corresponding bashing skills of course.

-Have wound afflicting be smarter. Disallow warrior attacks from striking for a wound affliction that the victim already has. Ex: If your first strike hits legtendon, have the second strike give a different affliction (probably a lower wound affliction in the body part pool, assuming the opponent hasn't cure legtendon yet) instead of the same legtendon. Exceptions: Pinleg, Impale

-Have wound afflicting be smarter. Disallow warrior attacks from striking for a wound affliction that the victim already has. Ex: If your first strike hits legtendon, have the second strike give a different affliction (probably a lower wound affliction in the body part pool, assuming the opponent hasn't cure legtendon yet) instead of the same legtendon.

^-- This should be settable in a maneuver-- sometimes you might want to have happen more than once.

Perhaps also an increase in warrior damage but a decrease in wounding in order to promote pressuring but discourage burst and stacking.

Xenthos:

-Have wound afflicting be smarter. Disallow warrior attacks from striking for a wound affliction that the victim already has. Ex: If your first strike hits legtendon, have the second strike give a different affliction (probably a lower wound affliction in the body part pool, assuming the opponent hasn't cure legtendon yet) instead of the same legtendon.

^-- This should be settable in a maneuver-- sometimes you might want to have happen more than once.

Like when?

I don't have any objection to making maneuvers 'immune' from this, but I don't see when you'd want it.

foolofsound:

Perhaps also an increase in warrior damage but a decrease in wounding in order to promote pressuring but discourage burst and stacking.

I'm trying really hard to avoid fudging with the damage/wounds formula again. Truth of the matter is, it'll probably just skew things in another direction and we'll be having this talk again after a few months.

Sojiro:


Like when?

Like pinleg!

Or crushaorta.

Well I can see the need with pinleg, but crushaorta doesn't actually give an affliction any more, unless you count bleeding as an aff.

( Or could just go back to one pin per leg, but increased writhe out time? )

Xenthos:

Like pinleg!

Or crushaorta.

Or when I sever tendon twice in a row.

Balls, I forgot pinleg/impale. Maybe we can make an exception for those. Might as well ask.

If I understand correctly, I feel that making wounding afflictions smarter is a good buff for one-handers but relatively useless for two-handers. If you leg tendon left leg, there's really no point in hitting left leg again when you could attempt to leg tendon right leg. If it's amputated, getting leg tendon is useless (and impossible? I don't actually know, but I assume you can't wound a non-existent limb!) on the same leg, as is lacerate.

As a whole, I like and agree with the changes, but I'm wondering if there's a solution for two-handers that would benefit them as much as one-handers as far as "smarter wounding" is concerned.

Yeah, that last suggestion really does seem to benefit one handers more as a whole, but I don't think it's a big issue given that there's been precedent already with the implementation of keeneye.

I'm not opposed to thinking about something for twohanders if needed, so that's up to you guys.

Perhaps two-handed specialties could be given an increased chance to afflict to make up for the slower aff speed.

Lothringen:

If I understand correctly, I feel that making wounding afflictions smarter is a good buff for one-handers but relatively useless for two-handers. If you leg tendon left leg, there's really no point in hitting left leg again when you could attempt to leg tendon right leg. If it's amputated, getting leg tendon is useless (and impossible? I don't actually know, but I assume you can't wound a non-existent limb!) on the same leg, as is lacerate.

As a whole, I like and agree with the changes, but I'm wondering if there's a solution for two-handers that would benefit them as much as one-handers as far as "smarter wounding" is concerned.

You get a message saying your weapon swings through where the limb would usually be, and typically moves on to hit gut from what I've seen.