All races are weak to excorable. That's the tradeoff - mobs have weaknesses to Divinus, players get weaknesses to Excorable.

Divinus vs Excorable is not being discussed in this thread, or even this report, much to my chagrin. We should focus on races.

We're just dancing around an idea of maybe adding Divinus/Excorable things to races. Relax.

Arcanis:


I also find it humorous that the people who are rallying for Viscanti and stating it is infact supremely superior and downright near OP, not to mention stake their lives that they use it and will use it again any day, are those people who are Opposing the very Org that has the specs…. . Added to the joke is that the members of the Org itself stating that it is in fact not at all good and there ther e is a reason why there are only around 4 active Viscanti in the entire damn game and only 1 is a Combatant (That being Silvanus, so perhaps his input on the race should not be tossed aside with a LOLno).

You are definitely exaggerating quite a bit here, I haven't re-read the entire thing, but I blantantly stated that there were better choices than Viscanti and I'm pretty sure most people feel the same. Viscanti aren't the best choice for their specs, but they are definitely not in the bottom 5 of worst races. I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim there is only 1 viscanti combatant as well when several other people switch to viscanti for certain group fights, and as you stated about Silvanus, maybe you shouldn't toss their arguments aside with an lolno? I'm pretty sure the bottom 5 were voted on and determined, so you should probably move on and stick to that.

As far as Merians go, I've never really played them, I don't know how much they're hurting. For once, I agree with Phantasmlfool, I think if you want to get something, you should give something. I don't necessarily think a point of Con is worth a level of eq balance, but I could see reducing a level of asphyx resist for a level of electric or fire.

The only thing I have to say about Viscanti is that they have HORRIBLE influencing skills.

Thank you, captain. We will take that into consideration.

I disagree. Merians and Mugs should not have to give something up to have their squishiness issue resolved- that is being needlessly axiomatic. If they were getting something above and beyond simply having the squish factor reduced, then yes. But that's not what is being asked for, and that's not what was in the initial suggestions.

If say, the fire weakness or the electric weakness were being removed entirely, then yes, reducing the aphix resist might be called for. But that isn't what is being suggested and never was.

Even if Merians/Mugs receive 1 con and have each of their maluses reduced one level, at the high end, they will still be softer targets than faelings and furrikin, which makes sense. Furrikin have a level 1 balance and level 1 eq, and a single level 1 malus, as well as that level 3 magic resist, a cold resist, and a herb bonus, with a single level 1 malus.

Faelings have been discussed to death, but at present, are a better choice unspecced than speced merian are for cantors. And that's as a glamourist! If I were tarot, I'd be able to take advantage of that level 2 balance bonus for something more than acro! Leave alone the lack of any disadvantages and a level 3 sip. But Faelings, leave alone spec faelings, being a bit better is fine. I don't want to see Faelings nerfed on some tit-for-tat grounds. My goal from the start has never wavered- a simple change or two to make Merians and Mugs that marginal bit tougher to make them playable. Heck, even the changes I want go through for merians/mugs, there's a pretty good chance I'll stay a Furrikin, because I find them to be pretty solid.

They certainly should not have to give something up on grounds no more solid than a knee jerk "well, they got something, so they should have to lose something too!" I mean, take that train of logic and apply it to other things and it reveals itself for what it is pretty quickly. Quid pro quo makes sense by virtue of the situation to which it is applied, not as a virtue in its own right.

As for Viscanti, if they had been pork-barreled in to the list and given some buff, I certainly wouldn't have cared so long as merians/mugs/tae got fixed. I certainly wouldn't be vindictively trying to prevent them from getting anything. Whether or not they got improvements has no bearing either way on whether or not merians/mugs/tae got the fixes they need.

Xiel said it well a number of posts back.

Shuyin, what do you think? Trade off, no trade off, or no trade off and reduced buffs?
I'll drop viscanti, and would ask other to do the same, at least until after we have decided on values for the "Bottom 5".

ANNOUNCE NEWS #1682
Date: 12/12/2010 at 2:39
From: Sior the Anomaly
To : Everyone
Subj: Race Changes

- Because of the following changes, everyone who was not eligible for a
free reincarnation has been given one.
- Balance/equilibrium levels were bumped from 5% per to 7% per.
- Dwarf Dex raised to 11 from 10.
- Human evolution changed
- Illithoid max for draining corpses lowered to 40 per from 50 per
level.
- Tae'Dae sip bonus increased to level 2
- Merians now have level 2 eq bonus from 1.
- Specced Lucidian warriors now lose 2 int instead of 3.
- Igasho now only have level 1 fire weakness.
- Orclach now have +1 int.
- The racial wounding boost for warriors moved to 7% from 5%.
- Furrikin int +1 (14 now).
- Shadowlord faelings only get +3 str, not +4.
- Faeling have only a level 2 balance bonus now.

Enjoy!

Penned by My hand on the 16th of Klangiary, in the year 283 CE.

That's the last announce post regarding races.

As a review, here are the suggestions once more:

Tae'dae:
+2 dex, total = 10
-2 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1

Igasho:
+1 dex, total = 11
-1 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
+1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resistance = lvl 1

Mugwump:

-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 2
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
+1 con, total = 11

Merian:
+1 con, total = 11
-1 con merian lord spec, total = 15

-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 1
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1

Orclach:
+1 dex, total = 14
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resist = lvl 1
-1 cutting resistance, total cutting resist = lvl 1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Generally speaking, I think it is generally seen that on that list of bottom 5 races, tae'dae, mugs, and merian approach the bottom, while igasho and orclach are near the 'better half' of that 5. Announce 1682 generally supports this notion, however the changes weren't enough, and sometimes, the changes weren't the ones needed to truly fix some races (igasho/tae'dae change).

With that said, I'm not overly opposed to taking away something from every race (which incidentally, I think I'm definitely going to do for igasho/orclach at the very least), but I'd like to see a good reason for it aside from rage reactions, so to speak.

I will make this clear: I'm not saying we should go for it, I am saying that if we were, I would rather just undo some of the changes from the last time.

Or at least one level of Sip/EQ respectively.

My perspective on Irontongue Viscanti bard as someone who has had a cameo but usually plays viscanti for personal and rp reasons.

Sub-par

Irontongue is the tankiest bard spec which could be ok with caco since they have an attrition tactic and the guild isn't centered on having to get off massive minor second attacks in or anything since they have low int and cha.

Only two things though.
1) Starvation attrition as a tactic is just too unreliable to base anything off of. There is no way for us to track hunger levels, see who has food and who doesn’t or know when someone is sitting at their keyboard thinking oh crap, oh crap, oh crap. Unless someone says they are panicking or passes out at our feet. we are none the wiser.

2) Viscanti is tanky but not like people think. Their resistances and decent con will keep you from being one shotted if you go into the wrong room but the sip malus and low dex mean that any kind of prolonged combat and you aren't going to see any benefit. If you’ve never played a race with a sip malus, the difference is significant.

I’m not trying to pick any fights or stir up any drama. These are just my observations.

My opinion:
The big problems with viscanti is the low dex and the sip malus.
Reigning in some of the advantages for a minor dex boost and a level 1 sip malus would make a huge difference.


Can breathe poison gas upon reaching level 50. / poison gas immunity
Neat-ish, but mostly cosmetic. It causes vomiting if you are enemied to the person who breathes it and don’t have protection up. Geomancers get this as a skill and are the only ones who could make any use of it.

Regenerate health and mana while in Tainted land, level 3
Handy when you are very young in specific places but a level 3 bonus here is way overkill. With all the regen bonuses out there, starting off a racial at the top is unnecessary.

Resistances – poison 1 blunt 2 and cutting 2 magic 2
Are nice but not worth the sip malus. Dialing them down some would be fine.



tldr I like playing caco viscanti but I’m in the minority. With a couple minor tweaks it’s my opinion that it could be a better race.

Viscanti is not in the top 5, changes are not important unless they expand the list.

I didn't read it because you made the text black, for some reason.

Why did you do that?

Malarious:

Viscanti is not in the top 5, changes are not important unless they expand the list.

Shuyin said that if we finish the top 5 (which we essentially have; there is no one posting on this thread for days at a time) we could add in other races that have problems, and send them in the report with the note that the bottom 5 are to be considered the most important.

Xenthos:

I didn't read it because you made the text black, for some reason.

Why did you do that?

Appologies, i wrote it in word because the editor on this new forums was annoying me. Still getting the hang of it.

But anyway, drop the perks of viscanti down enough to reduce the sip malus by 1 and maybe add one point of dex. Keep em a tanky spec, they will still be unapealing to power gamers but at least be a little more palatable for those of us who like the race and are willing to bite the bullet.

A tank race.. hmm...
1- Regen offsets the lowish stats. (dex means they get hit more often)
2- Resists offset the sip penalty

So if you want lower sips you are asking for resists to drop. If you want higher dex, regen will take a hit. At least this is my interpretation of perks/weaknesses.

I do not know if I agree with the other race things, someone make up something that would compare tae'dae and igasho under these changes, they sound rather similar under this. I have to head off so I cant do it. Will throw in my 10 cents on the prior changes listed when I get back.

Since the thread is active again:

RE: Viscanti- Like I said before, if they get buffed, swell. I was only really concerned with merians/mugs and Tae. Anything else that gets pork barreled in with that? Whatever. Maybe even just pump the dex up a couple points (and dracnari too, since they're in the same boat, with fewer of the resists and a level 3 cold malus thrown in the bag for good measure), and see if the added offense/defense benefit better compliments the sip malus.

Failing that, mess with their archetype specs. That's where it is really important anyway. If they aren't getting enough stats for their archetype, address it directly to the archetype.

RE: Merians/Mugs- neither one needs to be nerfed at all in compensation for being made slightly tougher. Gaining one con and a level of malus reduction isn't going to even bring them on par with furrikin toughness (who, while we're on the topic, I hit 22 dex with quite easily O.o). They'll still be less durable than everything else out there at demigod (yes, including unspecced faelings. At demi, the level 3 sip and no maluses more than makes up for the con difference.) They deserve to maintain their virtues, else this whole exercise is pointless.

Shuyin? Do you have a pretty good idea of what you are going to submit at this point for the bottom 5? If so, can we begin discussing other races?

Oh sure, go ahead, I'm fairly secure with the suggestions above, so I'm gonna go with that and then change as I receive admin feedback, if necessary.

I make no promises regarding other races though, especially since I'm pretty sure many people will take this opportunity to buff each and every race.

Suggestion for Viscanti:
- Reduce Regeneration in Taint to Lv.2
- Brood Spec: Increase Dex Modifier to +4 (2 higher)
- Master Spec: Increase Int Modifier to +4 (1 higher)
- Irontongue Spec: Increase Cha Modifier to +3 (1 higher)

This should make them a little more competitive for Mags to use, while not unduly buffing them.