Taurian enrage appears to be random.
First time, lasted 56 seconds.
Second time, 1 minute, 22 seconds.
Thrid time, 1 minute, 33 seconds.

So...unless we get confirmation from an admin on what it is, it may be okay. Though I wouldn't say no to a flat two-three minutes.

We can operate under the assumption that it's 1-1.5 minutes, can definitely ask about buffing that too.

Like I've already said, I'd rather we not go through every single race that exists and address each and every one of them since they really are mostly fine.

Will edit in suggestions soon.

Okay, for this topic, I think I'd like you guys to name a bottom 5-6 races that you feel needs extra attention, then we can go about suggesting fixes for them.

We really just can't address every race within this part of the report, sorry. Only the ones who are near unplayable.

After we get that list, I see no reason to not throw in other race suggestions. Just make it clear that the priority is on the unplayable ones.

Only two are near unplayable Shuyin: Tae'dae and Igasho.
The rest are just subpar, which should be fixed as well. Fully agree with Enya; these are NOT major changes along the line of ANY of the other special report topics. Virtually all of these should just require a simple change of variables. You have yet to give me a reason against sending the entire suggestion pool, especially since this is not a highly contentious topic.

Bottom 6:
1. Tae'dae
2. Igasho
3. Mugwump
4. Orclach
5. Viscanti (Fix lame Spec race before Taurians. Taurians aren't bad, just boring.)
6. Merian

All right fine.

Once we figure something out for the bottom 5-6, we can look at addressing annoyances with other races like SL faelings, etc etc.

Get to it!

You can find the suggestions and compromises thus far in my first post on the topic.
Anyone with opinions on those, or counter proposals, feel free to make them known.

I disagree that Viscanti are worse off than Taurians because I've actually seen folk use and stick with the race as a non-spec, let alone with a spec. I'm still sticking with my initial list with the inclusion of:

• Tae'dae
  
• Igasho
  
• Orclach
  
• Taurian
  
• Merian
  
• Mugwump
  

As for how to actually fix them in not-so-complicated ways, address the low con/lack of sip bonus that makes Merian and Mugwump players crumble, the balance maluses that make Tae'dae and Igasho unviable, and the lackluster existence of Taurians with whatever would make them better than a Human as a warrior or monk.

Lowering elemental weaknesses for Orclach/Merian/Mugwump is also another route that can be taken, I suppose.

Igasho
Tae'dae

Rest are fine/underrated.

• Tae'dae
  
• Igasho
  
• Mugwump
  

EDIT:
Of these, my experience is mostly with tae'dae. I would agree that buffing them by dropping the balance penalty to lv1 and upping dex slightly is a good start to making them a decent warrior race. It would be nice though if their racial weakness to fire/magic could be toned down (or flipped to resists, but that might be hoping for too much) so that at the end of it, igasho aren't tae'dae+, due to their better set of resistances. That said, just the balance change with the dex increase would go a long way towards bumping them out of the 'lolup' category. I also don't believe that their resistances need to be toned down to 'compensate' for the much-needed buff. We're trying to increase level of viability, not maintain it on an even keel. (If tae'dae get nerfed even more like in the last racial revamp that was supposed to 'help' them... Will not be happy.)



For Mugwumps, A couple of extra con points wouldn't be remiss.

In no particular order:
-Tae'dae
-Merians/Mugs

Everything else might not be optimal, but isn't crippling. The former can be mostly fixed by reducing balance penalty to 1, or eliminating it and easing off some of the resists. The latter two can be fixed by adding two con base to each (reducing Merian lady/lord spec accordingly), easing of the elemental resists, or some combination of the two.

If the above are fixed, a glance at the marginal cases like orclach and igasho, and or stuff like the SL str bonus, but honestly, the problems of those cases generally pales compared to not being able to mount an offense at all as Tae, and being way too squishy for what you get in return in the case of merian/mugs.

Finally, touching the underlying mechanics again is just a formula for failure. Every time its done, someone thinks they are being clever, and every time, it fixes a few spotlight races while flinging a new set right under the bus. The mechanics we have now are solid for almost everything. Just fix the few races that need it.

foolofsound:

Tae'dae:
- Increase Dex to 9.
- Reduce Balance Penalty to Lv1.
- Reduce Cutting Resistance to Lv2
- Reduce Blunt Resistance to Lv2
- Reduce Psychic Resistance to Lv1.

Igasho:
- Reduce Balance Penalty to Lv1
- Reduce Magic Resistance to Lv1

Merian:
Solution 1:
- Increase Constitution to 11.
- Reduce Fire Weakness to Lv1
- Reduce Merian Lord spec Constitution modifier to +4.
Solution 2:
- Increase Constitution to 12
- Reduce Fire Weakness to Lv1
- Reduce Merian Lord spec Constitution modifier to +3

Mugwump:
- Increase Constitution to 12.
- Reduce Electric Weakness to Lv1.

Orclach:
- Increase Int to 11.
- Reduce Fire Weakness to Lv2.

Taurians:
- Increase duration of Enrage
Additionally or alternatively
- Have Enrage grant Lv.1 Balance and EQ bonuses while active.

Any comments or counter-proposals on these specific solutions?
At this point we have a number of suggestions and compromises from the previous thread and it would be more useful for us to discuss specific solutions instead of general ones.

I agree - the base mechanics don't need to be addressed in this reiteration of a problem. It's just the few races never used that need tweaking, not another overhaul.

It's only the bad races that have a slow balance mechanic to begin with, though. I think that changing several attributes for some of the bad races is more likely to have unintended consequences than changing one attribute (balance penalty time) would. Whether something is considered a stat and thus on the table or a mechanic and off the table seems pretty arbitrary to me here.

Raeri:

I also don't believe that their resistances need to be toned down to 'compensate' for the much-needed buff. We're trying to increase level of viability, not maintain it on an even keel.

The suggested reduction is resistances are pretty minor, and ultimately these changes cannot be seen as anything but a buff. I actually calculated it out; a Tae'dae Serenguard with Moon virtually cannot be health killed as of right now. I think cutting back slightly on this ridiculous level of defensive ability in exchange for a viable offense is nothing but beneficial to the race.

(Note: I calculated an average damage reduction of 39% across all damage types for Tae'dae Serenguard with Moon. Those two racial weaknesses? With tattoos, they take 77% damage from those damage types. In addition, Tae'Dae max Constitution is 21. That's a lot of health. Not to mention that Sip Bonus.)
(Note also: This is not as overpowered as it seems; Tae'dae are still highly vulnerable to mana and timer kills.)

Most maxed out warriors these days are impossible to kill using damage.

I also doubt your "calculations", because there isn't enough evidence available for make conclusions such as "virtually cannot be health killed".

rika:

Most maxed out warriors these days are impossible to kill using damage.

...there isn't enough evidence available for make conclusions such as "virtually cannot be health killed".

These two statements are contradictory. Besides, is there a point you were trying to make about how we should edit Tae'dae? Or were you just being contrary? My only point was that a small reduction in racial resists in a small price to pay for significantly faster balance times, and that I feel that the tradeoff makes for a sufficient buff.

Well,as a Tae'dae player I can see some issues but some advantages actually.

Tae'dae seem to be a questing race. They bash well and survive while exploring, and have the charisma to be able to influence. I think in that way they have a good advantage.

However, in player vs player combat, the slowness thing is crippling. Also, their tankiness doesn't apply to several kill methods, so its useless in PVP

So they aren't useless, but they focus on one aspect of the game that loses focus as you get deeper into org conflict.


Another complaint.. their big bonus, strength, is almost too high. They can't benefit as well from strength boosts, so being an Igasho or Krokani would be better for strength, as boosting beyond 20 is supposedly weaker (from what I hear)

Honestly, if we wanted to make them better at what they do, give them an experience bonus, but then they may become far superior questers.

Ack. I, and many others, enjoy the PvP aspect of Lusternia. I also am really enamored with Tae'Dae. I would hate to think that I must make a choice between two of my favorite aspects of the game. It would be significantly preferable to make all races viable in PvP.

Just to clarify and give full details on Viscanti, I have the stats and final stats below:


Viscanti:
Statistics

• Strength: 13
  
• Dexterity: 10
  
• Constitution: 14
  
• Intelligence: 12
  
• Charisma: 10
  
• Size: 13
  

Advantages

• Can breathe poison gas upon reaching level 50.
  
• Regenerate health and mana while in Tainted land, level 3.
  
• Immune from poison gas.
  
• Resistance to poison damage, level 1.
  
• Resistance to blunt damage, level 2.
  
• Resistance to cutting damage, level 2.
  
• Resistance to magic damage, level 2.
  
• Advantage in village influencing, level 2.
  
• Advantage in intimidation influencing, level 2.
  
• Special for Geomancy and Necromancy Users: Upon gaining the Geomancy specialization or Nihilist specialization, a viscanti becomes a Master Viscanti with statistics changing by -2 strength, -2 dexterity, +3 intelligence and +2 charisma. Viscanti warriors who choose the necromancy path, upon gaining the necromancy specialization become a Brood Viscanti with statistics changing by -2 intelligence, +3 strength, +2 dexterity, +2 constitution and +2 size.
  
• For Necroscream Users Only: Upon gaining the Necroscream specialization in Music, a viscanti becomes an Irontongue Viscanti with statistics changing by -2 strength, -2 size, +2 intelligence, +2 charisma.
  

Disadvantages

• Heal more slowly from elixirs, level 2.
  

Final Stats:

VISCANTI: Str: 13, Dex: 10, Con: 14, Int: 12, Cha: 10, Size: 13

MASTER VISCANTI: Str: 11, Dex: 8, Con: 14, Int: 15, Cha: 12, Size: 13

BROOD VISCANTI: Str: 16, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 10, Cha: 10, Size: 15

IRONTONGUE VISCANTI: Str: 11, Dex: 10, Con: 14, Int: 14, Cha: 12, Size: 11

There really is a valid reason why very few people play Viscanti in general. Of the very few people I know who are Viscanti it is more for RP/Family honor reasons, none are combatants. The idea that "Viscanti is good...when you get Demi" is not very appealing..., also all the races can be "acceptable" when one becomes demigod in general.

Viscanti by itself (without specs) is flawed and no one is ever really going to be that. With specs, No Geomancer is going to be Viscanti with that much low charisma, they would rather Faeling (much higher int and con), or Illithoid (can have very high amount of ego, acceptable intelligence, but very high Con balances them out). Brood Viscanti, I have never really been a knight but I can image the 12 dex most likely turns them away, also the sip malus (which I will get to in the next point). Lastly Irontongue, one would say: With demigod, throne, karma beauty blessing and vileblood, you can be on par with others by youe 18/19 charisma. But the point is, why should a Caco bard attempt to settle for "acceptable" when they can be Faeling or trill and have "very good" Int and Charisma as normal faeling and trill, and then Amazing int and Charisma when they reach demigod? Viscanti in itself turns away newcommers that first start playing and later others realize they can simply do better as another race.

Also about the sip malus. Any sip malus alone makes people quickly look at another racial scroll. Dracnari also have a sip malus but they have rather high Con. A Normal Viscanti (which as I said is -never- played for the reasons stated) will not be able to survive with a sip malus and 14 con, and the extra resistances and regen in tainted area wont save them there. A Master viscanti or Irontongue is not any better off in general (this taking into consideration the abilities of their specs).

If Viscanti are still to be considered for that list, I would suggest reducing the sip malus to at least 1 (as well as Dracnari) and increasing Charisma by at least 1 point, perhaps this will make them more appealing and played in general.