Xiel:

I disagree that Viscanti are worse off than Taurians because I've actually seen folk use and stick with the race as a non-spec, let alone with a spec. I'm still sticking with my initial list with the inclusion of:

Who, pray tell, are these actual Viscanti outliers? Everyone can name a Tae'Dae outlier (Thul) but you cannot name a single Viscanti outlier. The fact of the matter is, as Arcanis said above, there are much better races for every single Spec for Viscanti. I am the only Viscanti combatant, and now that Dingbat hats are around, I will not be a viscanti much longer most likely. They are subpar, they have crappy stats, the one good thing they have (the resistances) are offset by the 10 dexterity, and the fact that there isn't too much that actually does Magic damage. The regeneration is offset by the fact that it is so easy as a Demigod to get to level 3 regeneration anywhere, that it is completely moot to bring up as an advantage to Viscanti.

Second, as Arcanis outlines above, unspecced Trill and Faeling (even Elfen, but they aren't allowed in Mag) make better Cacophony then specced Viscanti, Mugwump, Aslaran and Human are the choices for Nihilists. For Ur'Guard, since there is only three of them that fight, their races are Aslaran, Aslaran and Orclach. In the past 6 months, you will not be able to find a single Viscanti combatant outside of me. You can go through and Honours and look at the races of all the leadership positions in Magnagora, and you will find only five Viscanti (Lavinya, Alisa, Tesla, Ranadae and myself). I am the only one out of those five that cares about the race they are when they go to a fight.

foolofsound:

These two statements are contradictory. Besides, is there a point you were trying to make about how we should edit Tae'dae? Or were you just being contrary? My only point was that a small reduction in racial resists in a small price to pay for significantly faster balance times, and that I feel that the tradeoff makes for a sufficient buff.

No, I wasn't being contradictory. I said it is impossible for us to calculate it, but from seeing it in practice, we can make conclusions such as that.

Specific suggestions for Viscanti?

foolofsound:

Specific suggestions for Viscanti?

Increase Cha by one
Increase Dex by one (I'd also go so far to say increase Dex for Brood by 1 as well)
Lower Taint Regeneration to 1 or 0
Remove Sip Malus (or lower to 1, but I'd make up for it somewhere else if only lowered to 1)
Add a Level 1 Divinus Weakness (so for Undead Viscanti, its a level 3 weakness)

I don't think that would solve all the issues, but I think its a huge start and would make the race more playable.

Counter Suggestion:
Viscanti:
- Increase Charisma to 11
- Increase Dexterity to 11
- Reduce Regeneration in Taint to Lv.2
- Add Lv.1 Divinus Weakness
- Add Lv.1 Excoro Resistance
- Brood Spec: Increase Dex Modifier to +3
- Master Spec: Increase Int Modifier to +4

Regeneration in is pretty standard for org Spec races, and I wouldn't be comfortable removing it. Also not comfortable with removing Sip Malus completely, if at all, thanks to their high Con and nice resists.

I regularly roll around as an unspecced Viscanti

I think they're a great race for tankyness as a caster, Malarious and Lothringen have already stated that they think Viscanti guardians and bards are fine and don't really need much.

What I see in those suggestions are a lot of buffs with one little nerf

And I, Silvanus, and Arcanis all think that they are significantly subpar. What of it?

Sure a Viscanti is a fine caster as a Demigod with a Knowledge Endowment, Crowform, and Knowledge Blessing up (16 Int). They are not fine pre-demi, nor without other Int buffs (only 1 point of Int buff is universally available, and it requires upkeep).

foolofsound:

And I, Silvanus, and Arcanis all think that they are significantly subpar. What of it?

Sure a Viscanti is a fine caster as a Demigod with a Knowledge Blessing and Crowform up (16 Int). They are not fine pre-demi, nor without other Int buffs (only 1 point of Int buff is universally available, and it requires upkeep).

Well, in all honesty, Silvanus asked for outliers that use Viscanti, Lothringen said he did, I use it unspecced, I know Viynain and Vadi both use unspecced Viscanti to be tankier. I do well with it.

I'm a bit confused why you think races need to be balanced pre-demi, they don't. Lots of races aren't viable pre-demi. In fact, any warrior race is crap unless you're a demigod. You need to balance around the top, not the mid, otherwise the top gets too powerful and rapes the balanced mid.

I don't actually use knowledge blessing unless I'm faeling, no point unless I want to max my damage, which in groups, I don't. I'd rather tank it out.

Turns out most buffs require upkeep, you have to continually quest to maintain a throne blessing, karma for life, yet you didn't bring that up against faeling low-con? In fact you said it was easy to offset. You don't go Viscanti if you want to min/max, there's better races to be, but it doesn't make them hurting or unviable. I don't believe they even come close to falling in the bottom 5

Aslaran warrior isn't fine pre-demi either, but I don't think we should really balance around that, should we?

In any case, I only speak to Irontongue viscanti (as I had rather extensive experience with it) but it is by no means unplayable or even subpar. They don't need +cha.

Are you fine with the suggestions outside of the +Cha?

As Sidd said, both Vadi and I both roll around as unspecced Viscanti when we want to be tankier. I still don't think Viscanti as bad as people claim, and this is from experience.

Top 5 currently are: Tae'dae, Igasho, Mugwump, Merian, Orclach.

I've edited the initial post accordingly and have put up the suggestions for each race there. Let's talk about these 5 first, decide on what to do about them, then we can look at the rest.

foolofsound:

Tae'dae:
- Increase Dex to 9.
- Reduce Balance Penalty to Lv1.
- Reduce Cutting Resistance to Lv2
- Reduce Blunt Resistance to Lv2
- Reduce Psychic Resistance to Lv1.

Igasho:
- Reduce Balance Penalty to Lv1
- Reduce Magic Resistance to Lv1

Merian:
Solution 1:
- Increase Constitution to 11.
- Reduce Fire Weakness to Lv1
- Reduce Merian Lord spec Constitution modifier to +4.
Solution 2:
- Increase Constitution to 12
- Reduce Fire Weakness to Lv1
- Reduce Merian Lord spec Constitution modifier to +3

Mugwump:
- Increase Constitution to 12.
- Reduce Electric Weakness to Lv1.

Orclach:
- Increase Int to 11
- Reduce Fire Weakness to Lv2.

I gave my thoughts and I think fool posted them above? For the most part I think that covers things. Mugwump/Merian might have too high of a con but eh thats for yall to decide.

However the changes favour Igasho and Ignore Tae'dae. Changes essentially make Igasho superior to tae'dae. You lowered the resists on tae'daes cut/blunt to the same as igasho, etc etc.

So you think we should lose the reductions to Cutting/Blunt resists for Tae'dae?

I think it's more keep those resists and lose a level of cutting resist on igasho, I don't really mind Igasho being better than Tae'dae, I think they look pretty fair all around suggestions

Original idea was:

- Reduce balance penalty to 1 (I would say 2, but even that would leave it useless)
- Retain equilibrium penalties.
- Psionic mage is not effected. Psionics dont care about racial eq.
- Reduce sip bonus to 1.
- Reduce physical resists by 1
- Reduce psychic resist to 1 (not like anyone tends to cause psychic mind you)

I dont recall where that brings you.

Like Mal, I've given my views on Merians/Mugs several times, there isn't much more to say there other than an inevitably inconclusive argument over the extent of CON and Malus changes. So again like Mal, I'll leave those two at that.

Tae'dae- I'm mostly fine with dropping the balance penalty down, increasing the dex slightly, and leaving the rest. The int is a weakness, but there's a lot of strengths built in to the race too!

Igasho- The solution on its own I'm fine with, though this one I never felt was as bad off as the above three.

Orclach- I always puttered about mostly ok as an Orclach. If the INT thing is deemed a problem in general, then bump it up. Unlike with Merian, the general toughness and Con mostly let me get away without feeling crippled by the fire malus.

Can people make future suggestions in the form of numbers, for ease of recording. >_>

Ex:

Shuyin:
+1 dex
-1 cutting resist
+6 divinus weakness
-12 health regen

And so on?

Alternatively for Orclach:
- Increase Int to 10
- Increase Dex to 14
- Reduce Fire Weakness to Lv2

Alternatively for Igasho
- Reduce Balance Penalty to Lv1
- Reduce Magic Resistance to Lv1
- Reduce Cutting Resistance to Lv1