Unknown2011-10-31 17:49:31
Fair enough. I was actually unaware that Hod had been buffed; it used to be fairly worthless; evidently this is no longer that case.
Haghan2011-11-01 00:00:11
Well as a player of a Tae'dae I who intends to stay that way for RP purposes, I can suggest some ideas that are outside the box.
The big problem with Tae'dae is their lack of offense, because the balance penalty is so much more severe than the bonuses they get for it (Defenses (that don't always apply -Magic damage) and High Strength.. (which doesn't mean that much anymore).
Think about it, Tae'dae slowness is more prominent than their tankiness, which is a problem. Their defining feature is their negative.
Speed is so very very important as its effect multiply and outracing curing is essential. It makes venom combos and afflicting that much harder.
(That said, Tae'dae can survive bashing very well and can influence well.
So, out of the box solutions:
Without turning down the slowness:
Make the tae'dae attacks stronger, to offset the slowness involved. The high strength doesn't quite cut it.
Suggestions: (use one or all)
A wounding bonus
A bonus to critical hits (damage and/or frequency)
'Slow and Steady' : A partial resistance/immunity to aeon and stun effects.. (they are already slow, but stay that way)
Replace bearhug with 'Breakfree', attempting to use Strength to rip apart bonds rather than writhing, giving them a faster way to break out of bonds
Why these bonuses? The last two would give Tae'dae resistances against things that really matter (Aeon and Entangle) keeping them slow and powerful, rather than slow and stopped. The first two would be flavorful for warriors and mesh well with what they already do well, quest.
Just some out of the box craziness.
The big problem with Tae'dae is their lack of offense, because the balance penalty is so much more severe than the bonuses they get for it (Defenses (that don't always apply -Magic damage) and High Strength.. (which doesn't mean that much anymore).
Think about it, Tae'dae slowness is more prominent than their tankiness, which is a problem. Their defining feature is their negative.
Speed is so very very important as its effect multiply and outracing curing is essential. It makes venom combos and afflicting that much harder.
(That said, Tae'dae can survive bashing very well and can influence well.
So, out of the box solutions:
Without turning down the slowness:
Make the tae'dae attacks stronger, to offset the slowness involved. The high strength doesn't quite cut it.
Suggestions: (use one or all)
A wounding bonus
A bonus to critical hits (damage and/or frequency)
'Slow and Steady' : A partial resistance/immunity to aeon and stun effects.. (they are already slow, but stay that way)
Replace bearhug with 'Breakfree', attempting to use Strength to rip apart bonds rather than writhing, giving them a faster way to break out of bonds
Why these bonuses? The last two would give Tae'dae resistances against things that really matter (Aeon and Entangle) keeping them slow and powerful, rather than slow and stopped. The first two would be flavorful for warriors and mesh well with what they already do well, quest.
Just some out of the box craziness.
Unknown2011-11-01 00:04:40
I like some of these ideas, particularly resistance to entangle/aeon/stun, but am not really sure how easy they would be to balance...
Unknown2011-11-01 08:58:18
All right, this thread has been quiet for a few days now, plus the ice devil event is now over and we're all filthy rich, so back to business.
As a review, the top (bottom!) 5 races are: Tae'dae, Igasho, Mugwump, Merian, Orclach.
I think I'm going to go with these:
Tae'dae:
+2 dex, total = 10
-2 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
Igasho:
+1 dex, total = 11
-1 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
+1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resistance = lvl 1
Mugwump:
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 2
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
+1 con, total = 11
Merian:
+1 con, total = 11
-1 con merian lord spec, total = 15
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 1
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
Orclach:
+1 dex, total = 14
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resist = lvl 1
-1 cutting resistance, total cutting resist = lvl 1
Rationale:
TL;DR: Tae'dae, Merian, and Mugwump are buffed because they are lame and weak. Igasho and Orclach, while also bad, aren't exactly on the same level as the other 3, so some compensation must be had for these.
Tae'dae - Speed penalty cripples them as warriors, the only class they can viably be. Added dex to improve wounding output. They can be the tankier slow balance race compared to Igasho.
Igasho - Similar to tae'dae, however they are more viable given their BM bonus and nearly the same number of resistances. Compared to tae'dae, they are less resistant but are also more dexterous.
Mugwump - Their frailty makes them unviable, even with their bonuses. More con and reduced weaknesses should offset this a bit more.
Merian - Similar to mugwump, but they are meant to be preferable to many other races, given that they are a spec race. More con and reduced weakness help with the frailty.
Orclach - Low dex makes them fairly subpar as a spec PB race, so that was rectified. A level 3 weakness is also fairly crippling, so that was reduced, however some resistances were reduced as compensation.
Let me know what you guys think.
As a review, the top (bottom!) 5 races are: Tae'dae, Igasho, Mugwump, Merian, Orclach.
I think I'm going to go with these:
Tae'dae:
+2 dex, total = 10
-2 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
Igasho:
+1 dex, total = 11
-1 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
+1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resistance = lvl 1
Mugwump:
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 2
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
+1 con, total = 11
Merian:
+1 con, total = 11
-1 con merian lord spec, total = 15
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 1
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
Orclach:
+1 dex, total = 14
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resist = lvl 1
-1 cutting resistance, total cutting resist = lvl 1
Rationale:
TL;DR: Tae'dae, Merian, and Mugwump are buffed because they are lame and weak. Igasho and Orclach, while also bad, aren't exactly on the same level as the other 3, so some compensation must be had for these.
Tae'dae - Speed penalty cripples them as warriors, the only class they can viably be. Added dex to improve wounding output. They can be the tankier slow balance race compared to Igasho.
Igasho - Similar to tae'dae, however they are more viable given their BM bonus and nearly the same number of resistances. Compared to tae'dae, they are less resistant but are also more dexterous.
Mugwump - Their frailty makes them unviable, even with their bonuses. More con and reduced weaknesses should offset this a bit more.
Merian - Similar to mugwump, but they are meant to be preferable to many other races, given that they are a spec race. More con and reduced weakness help with the frailty.
Orclach - Low dex makes them fairly subpar as a spec PB race, so that was rectified. A level 3 weakness is also fairly crippling, so that was reduced, however some resistances were reduced as compensation.
Let me know what you guys think.
Unknown2011-11-01 14:25:11
Sojiro:
All right, this thread has been quiet for a few days now, plus the ice devil event is now over and we're all filthy rich, so back to business.
As a review, the top (bottom!) 5 races are: Tae'dae, Igasho, Mugwump, Merian, Orclach.
I think I'm going to go with these:
Tae'dae:
+2 dex, total = 10
-2 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
While I am absolutely ok with this, I think you'll find this a rather hard sell unless Tae'dae also give something up. I recommend a level of Sip Bonus, since Sip Bonus makes a race all around tougher.
Igasho:
+1 dex, total = 11
-1 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
+1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resistance = lvl 1
Don't really think the Igasho needs BOTH increased Fire Weakness and reduced Magic Resistance. One or the other is probably sufficient.
Mugwump:
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 2
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
+1 con, total = 11
Acceptable, though I feel that they should get +2 Con, since they have significantly worse stats than a Merian.
Merian:
+1 con, total = 11
-1 con merian lord spec, total = 15
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 1
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
Acceptable.
Orclach:
+1 dex, total = 14
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resist = lvl 1
-1 cutting resistance, total cutting resist = lvl 1
It would not go amiss to throw an extra point of Int in here. Orclach already suffer under one terrible vitals stat; the least we can do is lessen the burden of the other.
Arcanis2011-11-01 14:42:27
Sojiro:
Merian - Similar to mugwump, but they are meant to be preferable to many other races, given that they are a spec race. More con and reduced weakness help with the frailty.
I like everything in here but this. I personally dont think that Merians should get buffed up to such an extend by the reasoning that they are a Spec Race and so they should be cooler. If that was the case, then all the Specs should be looked at (Except Faeling). I dont see big major problems with merians. Merians have the highest Int in the game (even more than Faeling and Elfen) and that is WITHOUT specs. With Specs a Merian shoots up to 18 Int and 15 Cha! That is amazing stats for a Mage (yes TK, I consider all Mage as TK sorry :/ ).
I have always considered Merians as simply glass cannons and that their frailty fit in with the lore of their race in general (Merians were always highly intelligent, not tough). I also have honestly been seeing several Merians around. I dont think it is going all that underplayed.
I think IF Merians have to be changed, they should only get +1 con and perhaps -1 con to Merian Lord Spec. Heck the Merian Lord Spec is the highest intelligence and acceptable Strength and Con Knight spec out there :/
Edit: Scratch that, Faeling Spec would also deserve to be looked at.
Unknown2011-11-01 14:49:55
The problem is non-Warrior, non-Mage merians are REALLY squishy, particularly so to common damage types. Making them slightly more desirable to play is perfectly legitimate, considering that they are supposed to be common in Celeste.
Arcanis2011-11-01 14:54:46
foolofsound:
The problem is non-Warrior, non-Mage merians are REALLY squishy, particularly so to common damage types. Making them slightly more desirable to play is perfectly legitimate, considering that they are supposed to be common in Celeste.
If that is your reasoning then it can be pointed to several other Specs. Non-Guardian, Non-Bard Viscanti. Non-Wiccan, Non-Druid Faelings. etc. Like someone said above, no race is suppose to be amazing at everything. But like I had said, the highest intelligence in the game being for Merian are their seller
Unknown2011-11-01 15:04:02
Highest Int and an EQ bonus actually. They have the potential to be real outliers. That said, a race that is heavily vulnerable to two common damage types AND has low Con is going to be slaughtered instantly in group combat unless they have something like Regen or Sip Bonus, else something broken and stupid, like ForceField (I say this as a former TK mage; ForceField removes the main disadvantage from a number of races.).
Xenthos2011-11-01 15:12:37
I agree. Nerf forcefield.
Unknown2011-11-01 15:21:22
Yeah, if we're basing races on an ability, let's just change the ability (Forcefield).
Unknown2011-11-01 15:26:17
Well. That's not really in the confines of this report; I'm actually pretty shocked that Envoys haven't already taken care of this.
However, we should certainly not base the balancing of races around a single tertiary of a single archetype, so I still feel that Merians need to be a bit tankier.
However, we should certainly not base the balancing of races around a single tertiary of a single archetype, so I still feel that Merians need to be a bit tankier.
Kiradawea2011-11-01 17:50:42
Honestly, the suggestions as is seem fine to me. If anything, add a level 2 or 3 influencing bonus to intimidation for Orclach to toss them a bit of flavour.
Of course, I still want more influence boosts thrown around so we see more other races and less Faeling only when it comes to influencing.
Of course, I still want more influence boosts thrown around so we see more other races and less Faeling only when it comes to influencing.
Unknown2011-11-01 19:03:27
Tae'dae: Yeah, honestly the hard sell here would be convincing the admin to drop the balance penalty all the way to level one, not so much the other stuff.
So, here's a counter proposal, might even do +4 dex:
+3 dex, total = 11
-1 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 2
Mugwump: they also have an awesome eq boost, better than merian.
Merian: For this part, I'm honestly not too sold on reducing both weaknesses, so I'm still kind of wavering there. If anyone has a strong opinion one way or another, go speak up and we can talk about merians more thoroughly as well.
Orclach: Krokani and other low int races manage fine as warriors, I don't see why orclach can't as well. This doesn't take into account domoths, blessings, etc as well.
Let's keep talking about all races!
So, here's a counter proposal, might even do +4 dex:
+3 dex, total = 11
-1 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 2
Mugwump: they also have an awesome eq boost, better than merian.
Merian: For this part, I'm honestly not too sold on reducing both weaknesses, so I'm still kind of wavering there. If anyone has a strong opinion one way or another, go speak up and we can talk about merians more thoroughly as well.
Orclach: Krokani and other low int races manage fine as warriors, I don't see why orclach can't as well. This doesn't take into account domoths, blessings, etc as well.
Let's keep talking about all races!
Unknown2011-11-01 19:06:37
I don't think Tae'dae are going to be viable with Lv.2 Balance penalty; 14% slower is simply too much. You'll notice that virtually every proposal for Tae'dae make a Lv.1 Balance penalty a requirement. Besides, Estarra would comment if she had a strong opinion on how we want to fix a race.
Unknown2011-11-01 19:10:10
Sure, why not. Will go with the lvl1 penalty and then will revise once we get feedback.
Aison2011-11-01 20:04:06
Arcanis:
I like everything in here but this. I personally dont think that Merians should get buffed up to such an extend by the reasoning that they are a Spec Race and so they should be cooler. If that was the case, then all the Specs should be looked at (Except Faeling). I dont see big major problems with merians. Merians have the highest Int in the game (even more than Faeling and Elfen) and that is WITHOUT specs. With Specs a Merian shoots up to 18 Int and 15 Cha! That is amazing stats for a Mage (yes TK, I consider all Mage as TK sorry :/ ).
I have always considered Merians as simply glass cannons and that their frailty fit in with the lore of their race in general (Merians were always highly intelligent, not tough). I also have honestly been seeing several Merians around. I dont think it is going all that underplayed.
I think IF Merians have to be changed, they should only get +1 con and perhaps -1 con to Merian Lord Spec. Heck the Merian Lord Spec is the highest intelligence and acceptable Strength and Con Knight spec out there :/
Edit: Scratch that, Faeling Spec would also deserve to be looked at.
I realize that Mag/Celest has always been at odds with one another regarding races, but it has always been the consensus that merian is the absolute weakest of all the spec races, especially considering their weaknesses. If you have not noticed (sans Hallifax and Gaudiguch), merian is the only race with actual disadvantages. Faeling and elfen are quite powerful, as are viscanti. If I could play viscanti on my main, I certainly would do so, as that -2 sip malus has hardly any effect (and this coming from someone who has bashed as dracnari in catacombs). Not to mention you've a construct that gives a +1 sip bonus.
As to my direct opinion on merian, the lowering of the disadvantages looks very attractive. The addition of a point of con also looks great and would definitely be helpful to celestines. But I am biased and greatly yearn for merian to be a good race that I can play both combatively and for roleplaying reasons. As of now I can use it for idling in Celest and also bashing illithoid (though without a throne blessing or TF I still often times have to run from the room to catch my breath). But for supermob raids or solo bashing muud/astral, it's not very fun with the constant struggle of survival, so I usually just change race to something tankier, albeit with less int.
But my opinion is mostly uninformed, so feel free to ignore.
Unknown2011-11-01 22:26:17
Aison:
...it has always been the consensus that merian is the absolute weakest of all the spec races...
By whom? Surely not Mag, nor likely their allies. I think you may be victim of a limited opinion pool.
Aison:
If you have not noticed (sans Hallifax and Gaudiguch), merian is the only race with actual disadvantages.
I think you meant: Sans Trill, Lucidian, Merian, Viscanti, and Dracnari. Now look again; that is 5/7 spec races with disadvantages. not sure how you can ignore THAT for the sake of your argument.
Aison:
Faeling and elfen are quite powerful, as are viscanti.
Which is why 20% of the game is Faeling while there is exactly one Viscanti combatant that I know of?
Aison:
If I could play viscanti on my main, I certainly would do so
Why? What does an unspecced Viscanti do better than any other race? You would be better off going Dracnari, who are better in virtually every way. Don't tell me it's because of 10% less physical damage. It's already the least threatening damage type as is thanks to armor.
Aison:
...that -2 sip malus has hardly any effect (and this coming from someone who has bashed as dracnari in catacombs). Not to mention you've a construct that gives a +1 sip bonus.
"Sip Malus is hardly a penalty at all, so Viscanti don't need buffs!" "Your +1 Sip Bonus construct is OP! Nerf" Why do I hear both of these arguments from the same side?
Not to mention that Mag rarely gets control of a bubble to begin with, so it's a moot point.
Aison:
As to my direct opinion on merian, the lowering of the disadvantages looks very attractive. The addition of a point of con also looks great and would definitely be helpful to celestines. But I am biased and greatly yearn for merian to be a good race that I can play both combatively and for roleplaying reasons. As of now I can use it for idling in Celest and also bashing illithoid (though without a throne blessing or TF I still often times have to run from the room to catch my breath). But for supermob raids or solo bashing muud/astral, it's not very fun with the constant struggle of survival, so I usually just change race to something tankier, albeit with less int.
Oh please. I bash astral as an unspecced Faeling Bard who has even less base Con then you. I use a platter, domoth blessing, beast blocking, dodge, healing scroll, sparkleberry, and health blessings in order to stay alive, and it works just fine, even with my lame damage output since I don't have the uberbashing damage type (divinus). If you are having trouble surviving then you are doing something wrong. Besides, Imperial Merians have the best Mage/Guardian damage output in the game, with 18 base Int and Lv2 EQ bonus. Not to mention that between Proofing and Tattoos, you can cover for the entirety of Merian racial weaknesses, before even taking Galvanism and Frost potion into account, much less and guild DMP.
So no. I think that the current solution is perfectly sufficient, if not overdoing it, and am still personally of the mind that Merians don't even belong in the bottom 5, particularly if Viscanti don't.
Haghan2011-11-01 22:42:43
Ok, some more severe solutions:
Balance/Eq Penalty is very harsh. It seemed like all resists and weakness were given symmetrical increases, but balance/eq penalties are more severe than damage type weaknesses and bonus: Perhaps we should not shift the distribution of these penalties, but adjust their severity. Halving them would be a step towards bringing the races in line. (or at least restoring them to their old values)
Also, for warrior races, I think a bonuses to criticals could be splashed around the races. Institute racial bonuses to critical damage and racial bonus to critical frequency (could also be adjust for physical vs magical damage or by stat)
This would add some more flavor and variety: Imagine Taurians and Tae'dae with a level 1 bonus to critical damage, and orclachs with a level 2 bonus(or maybe just score better types of critical hits)... it would feel savage and brutal, And give Igasho and Tae'dae better frequency with critical hits, to make their fighting feel different, like you are really delivering a beating. Alternative, you make those play to str based criticals, and give some master mage races bonuses to Int based criticals (Merians might get damage, Elfen frequency, Mugwumps both) and maybe evil give trill a bonus to charisma based criticals.
Also I still like the idea of tae'dae being able to break out of bonds with their strength rather than hug people, would be a great way to make playing them feel different.
edit: Additional Idea for Orclach, since their history of undeath predates the taint, what about having an 'undeath' quest for Orclach that can be done regardless of what org you are in. This would give a nice racial feel (obvious some orgs may forbid it, but it would add some interesting RP)
Balance/Eq Penalty is very harsh. It seemed like all resists and weakness were given symmetrical increases, but balance/eq penalties are more severe than damage type weaknesses and bonus: Perhaps we should not shift the distribution of these penalties, but adjust their severity. Halving them would be a step towards bringing the races in line. (or at least restoring them to their old values)
Also, for warrior races, I think a bonuses to criticals could be splashed around the races. Institute racial bonuses to critical damage and racial bonus to critical frequency (could also be adjust for physical vs magical damage or by stat)
This would add some more flavor and variety: Imagine Taurians and Tae'dae with a level 1 bonus to critical damage, and orclachs with a level 2 bonus(or maybe just score better types of critical hits)... it would feel savage and brutal, And give Igasho and Tae'dae better frequency with critical hits, to make their fighting feel different, like you are really delivering a beating. Alternative, you make those play to str based criticals, and give some master mage races bonuses to Int based criticals (Merians might get damage, Elfen frequency, Mugwumps both) and maybe evil give trill a bonus to charisma based criticals.
Also I still like the idea of tae'dae being able to break out of bonds with their strength rather than hug people, would be a great way to make playing them feel different.
edit: Additional Idea for Orclach, since their history of undeath predates the taint, what about having an 'undeath' quest for Orclach that can be done regardless of what org you are in. This would give a nice racial feel (obvious some orgs may forbid it, but it would add some interesting RP)
Unknown2011-11-01 22:49:44
Haghan:
Balance/Eq Penalty is very harsh. It seemed like all resists and weakness were given symmetrical increases, but balance/eq penalties are more severe than damage type weaknesses and bonus: Perhaps we should not shift the distribution of these penalties, but adjust their severity. Halving them would be a step towards bringing the races in line. (or at least restoring them to their old values)
Doing this would require us to re-examine Aslaran and Faeling as well, which I'm not sure we want to do.
Haghan:
Also, for warrior races, I think a bonuses to criticals could be splashed around the races. Institute racial bonuses to critical damage and racial bonus to critical frequency (could also be adjust for physical vs magical damage or by stat)
This would add some more flavor and variety: Imagine Taurians and Tae'dae with a level 1 bonus to critical damage, and orclachs with a level 2 bonus(or maybe just score better types of critical hits)... it would feel savage and brutal, And give Igasho and Tae'dae better frequency with critical hits, to make their fighting feel different, like you are really delivering a beating. Alternative, you make those play to str based criticals, and give some master mage races bonuses to Int based criticals (Merians might get damage, Elfen frequency, Mugwumps both) and maybe evil give trill a bonus to charisma based criticals.
Don't think we need to add new mechanics, particularly ones that are difficult to balance. Further, this has the potential to cause problems with bashing disparities and we don't want to introduce more of those; have you not seen the Divinius debacle?
Haghan:
Also I still like the idea of tae'dae being able to break out of bonds with their strength rather than hug people, would be a great way to make playing them feel different.
It's a cool idea, though not one that is easy to balance, nor do I believe that it will make up for retaining a large balance penalty.
Haghan:
edit: Additional Idea for Orclach, since their history of undeath predates the taint, what about having an 'undeath' quest for Orclach that can be done regardless of what org you are in. This would give a nice racial feel (obvious some orgs may forbid it, but it would add some interesting RP)
Not what is being worked on in this thread. This would not affect racial balance, at least not in a practical or predicable way.
