Regarding the effect of sip bonuses/maluses: during the last racial re-balancing round, Mag's players called for a lowering of the Faeling sip bonus (originally at level 3), arguing that the sip bonus of Faeling was too much (note that the race has only 10 CON, and that sip amount is derived from max health).

Then, when the new constructs came out and Mag's had a +1 sip bonus, the players then argued that the sip bonus would not affect Viscanti much (note that the race has 14 CON, on top of poison, blunt, cutting, and magic resistances). With this knowledge, the "other side" had some contradictory arguments, as well.

Viscanti's sip malus and sip bonus construct is deemed sufficient because a] it has a high constitution, b] it has high resistances, and c) it does not have elemental weaknesses. On the other hand, merian has a] a low constitution, b] no resistances, and c] 2 high elemental weaknesses.

Probably not going to change balance/eq in general. Also not going to add new mechanics, whether it be divinus weaknesses, taint stuff, etc. This is a pretty minor report, not a major "races only" report.

Merian vs. Viscanti have nothing to do with the topic, so is a sip bonus construct, forcefield, etc. Arguing that because Mag does not get aetherbubbles, the sip construct does not count is fallacious.

I'm also not overly convinced that 'highest stat ever' is all that big of a deal nowadays, given diminishing returns. Because if that were the case, you'd have to examine faeling, viscanti, etc by including their super high stats as well.

If I didn't spend all my time influencing, I would gladly take base merian over faeling as a bard, let alone specced merian.

Sojiro:

I'm also not overly convinced that 'highest stat ever' is all that big of a deal nowadays, given diminishing returns. Because if that were the case, you'd have to examine faeling, viscanti, etc by including their super high stats as well.

Yup. That 14 Con (highest stat btw) on Viscanti is really gamebreaking.

It's pretty awesome how at this point, everyone has said, "If I weren't x race, I'd totally be enemyorg y race RIGHT NOW". Grass is always greener.

Edit: Hey, viscanti doesn't have terrible stats at all, and they do have one of the most (if not the most) resistances for a spec race in the game. Don't be sarcastic.

Sojiro:

It's pretty awesome how at this point, everyone has said, "If I weren't x race, I'd totally be enemyorg y race RIGHT NOW". Grass is always greener.

I've actually tried base merian though, and it definitely helps my affliction stacking. As faeling, I can stick 2 aurics before I need to wait for earwort, but I can reliably stick 3 as a merian. I have a lot more health as well, which more than offsets the extra damage from two sources that I can get heaps of resistance to anyway.

Damage per hit isn't that much lower and the extra speed covers that and some.

Just to throw in my two cents, no Viscanti are not as terribad as people want to paint them as, and I'm inclined to believe I've experienced playing as one enough to state they're fine even as a non-spec caster. Their high con and great resists greatly offset the common downfalls of being a caster, but people are just determined to keep trying to push for buffs for something that's not needed.


-toddles away-

The point is that for every one that says 'No one plays merian/viscanti', someone will always go 'well, I'd play merian/viscanti, they're awesome, here's why'. It's just a neverending circle. Both races have great things going for them, and both have their own set of problems.

I refer you too my above post: all of a Merian's weaknesses can be overcome, AND they have a Lv2 EQ bonus and wonderful stats, and we have already agreed that speed is very important to Lusternian combat. I feel that, honestly, if you feel that buffs to Viscanti are unnecessary (despite the fact that they go all but unused in their spec city) then you should also feel that buffs to merians are unnecessary.

I on the other hand, believe that buffs to BOTH races are necessary. I notice that the calls to buff/not buff viscanti fall fairly neatly upon alliance lines, which makes me suspect calls to buff one race but not the other to be biased.

Eh?

Of course people would disagree about buffing viscanti, but as you've noticed, people have also disagreed about buffing merians. Calling out bias in this does nothing because it's obvious that everyone who plays the game will have an opinion one way or another.

My own personal feelings have nothing to do here. I personally don't care about either viscanti or merian, given that I don't use either race. Heck, I don't even go dracnari, my org's own spec race.

The fact of the matter is, I asked people to vote and people voted merians in and not viscanti. That's why buffing merian is on the table and buffing viscanti is not. It has nothing to do with bias, but it probably does have something to do with people giving a damn about reading the forums. I was pretty clear about saying that this is not a special report dedicated solely to races and that I only really want to bump up the bottom 5 races to be viable until the admin decide that another race report is in order.

I dont think the decision on which races need fix-ups should come down to "how many people have whined here that this race is bad". ALOT of bias can go into this as several people from 1 org can simple post here " sucks so bad, it isnt fair, it needs fixing, please fix".

Honestly my main comment to Merian was that I see no need for a big fix for them. Honestly am I the only one that is seeing Merian combatants out there? I check peoples HONOURS and see "Seasinger Merian" "Imperial Merian". This race is -not- going underplayed. Amazing Int, Amazing cha and level 2 equilibrium? That would be amazing for me, and much better than Aslaran or Faeling.

To sum up this whole Merian vs Viscanti debacle, the way I see it is this:

Merians are the heavy hitters, they have high stats but are squishy in general, meaning Merians can deal out the damage but cant take it as much. Viscanti are the exact opposite (which I believe was Estarra's whole plan for this). Viscanti do not have high stats and cannot deal out such high damage, however they can take hits. In the end, Merian are Offensive and Viscanti are Defensive. These two races seem tied in this balance, which is not strange as Celest and Mag seem to balance one another out in almost everything.

If Merians had to have some change, then I believe Viscanti would also need a bit of a change to even it out. One cannot be modified without somehow affecting the other I believe.

Actually, I brought up merians because with with a great rune of divine spirit, RoA, regen runes, beast bodyguard, appropriate blessings, splendours, and tattoos, non-knight spec merian aren't worth the effort. I run around as furrikin which, while still 11 con with a level 1 fire malus, get a level 1 balance and level 1 eq (both useful for a bard), and are less squishy enough to actually make this worthwhile.

Heck.

Unspecc'd faelings are a better choice. That's not just saying "my spec race isn't optimal for me". That's saying, the unspecced form of another org's specializing race is proving a better choice for me. Mugs are included because they suffer from the same problem that dooms merians. 10 con paired with a pair of nasty maluses. The advantages given by speed do not balance this out. So they both need to be made a bit tougher. Neither needs to give up anything to balance the scales, because the scales are starting out imbalanced. Nor am I asking for some level of toughness that would make them insane. 12 con with the maluses they have now, or 11 con with reducing both maluses by a level (for both races, the above would work) would ensure that at the high end, they're still squishier than faelings, or damn close to it (accounting for the benefits of the sip bonus).

Shuyin's solutions for both are fine. They'll still be squisher than faelings. I also agree with mugs getting the little extra kick.

-deleted some off topic grumblings here after thinking better of them-

Its been gone over why faelings are more survivable than merians or mugs at demi. There is a difference of 1 con- and that's unspec'd! For shadowcaster, they have 10 con, the same as merians and mugs, with the level 3 sip, and without the maluses. And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But saying "gosh faelings are survivable and they have less con than merians and mugs, the latter must be fine" is either coming from someone with a gross lack of information harping on one variable, or someone just being willfully misleading.

Honestly, I'd have just done Merians, Mugs, and Tae. The first two for distinct lack of suriviability that simply isn't compensated for with speed, the latter for strict lack of viability due to the balance malus in the one archetype they are particularly well suited towards.

Are you sure you're not just feeling the effects from going orclach or whatever race you were as a warrior to a glass cannon caster?

Note, I'm not saying merians don't need buffs. I'm just saying a simple +1 con will be enough.

rika:

Are you sure you're not just feeling the effects from going orclach or whatever race you were as a warrior to a glass cannon caster?

Note, I'm not saying merians don't need buffs. I'm just saying a simple +1 con will be enough.

I waited several RL months before drawing my conclusion for that exact reason. I'm sure you, in particular, are very familiar with the initial "omg" feeling of going from knight to something squishable, so I gave it a good long time to subside, and tried a nice little selection of races to avoid that. The difference between furrikin or unspec'd faeling and merian/mug is really what I'm drawing it from.

The extent of repair that is required is going to ultimately boil down to personal experience and opinion. I stand by mine, and I'm sure we could go in all sorts of fun little circles on the topic.

Sojiro:

Sure, why not. Will go with the lvl1 penalty and then will revise once we get feedback.

A level 2 penalty at present is 1% faster than a level 3 penalty before the last round of racial changes, in which it was agreed that tae'dae were unviable. Suggesting that a 1% increase would somehow make them 'too fast' compared to old tae'dae speed is just silly, especially when you consider their resists were already nerfed.

EDIT: Regarding the faeling forcefield thing, was already tried via envoy report 499. It got Solution 4'd.

That's right, I forgot the old values. Good catch.

Arcanis:

Honestly my main comment to Merian was that I see no need for a big fix for them. Honestly am I the only one that is seeing Merian combatants out there? I check peoples HONOURS and see "Seasinger Merian" "Imperial Merian". This race is -not- going underplayed. Amazing Int, Amazing cha and level 2 equilibrium? That would be amazing for me, and much better than Aslaran or Faeling.

As an Aquamancer, I can say for sure that there are for sure no active combatants in my guild who go merian. If you're seeing Imperial Merian, they are not combatants, but people who started as merian and have not race changed, for various reasons.

Which strikes me as very strange. An Imperial Merian with TK should have a pretty good ForceField, in addition to excellent Int and an EQ bonus. What about Merians makes Aquamancers not want to play them, and what do Aquamancers play?

foolofsound:

Which strikes me as very strange. An Imperial Merian with TK should have a pretty good ForceField, in addition to excellent Int and an EQ bonus. What about Merians makes Aquamancers not want to play them, and what do Aquamancers play?

I would also like the answer of this please, so that I may understand why merians seem so broken. Merians were mostly designed for spellcaster classes and if they arent functioning in that category then yes I admit they would need fixing.

Any mention of the sip bonus construct is fallacious, period. It has nothing to do with racial balancing any more than domoth blessings, platters, and skills do. Drop it, or everyone else is entitled to argue about domoth blessings on faelings to lucidians. Hell, every single race should be balanced around the sip bonus construct as every race could potentially benefit from it.

Edit: Anyone that mentions it again in relation to alleviating viscanti's penalty OR in regard to racial balance at all should be ignored. It's a logical error, end of story. Continuing to refer to it is essentially proclaiming one's self to be a willfully ignorant idiot.