Then maybe it should just be done through the Envoy system.

I don't know where the Stealth Veil cooldown came from (if in this thread I missed it), and while it does seem a little out of place in the special report it is something that is worth considering / discussing on an Envoy level imo.

Though I too am concerned about going back to grapple-grapple-grapple all the way to 5mo and then kicking into high gear. One possible idea might be that if the attack utilizes a grapple it does not add momentum (but also does not lose any, it keeps you moving at the same speed so it does reset the momentum loss timer). Then you have to choose between attacking to build up momentum or grappling for the 'finishing moves' (which would be more of an ender once you've already built it up).

Something to ponder at least.

I just wanna say that introducing nerfs at the last minute has never been my intention with this thread. I'd taken a break from Lusternia at the end of Oct. start of Nov. and have just recently started up again the last week or so ago. That also included breaking from the forum as well. That said, I don't have an issue with mechanics fixes and the like for monks. That may not have been clear from the tone of some of my posts, and if that's the case I apologize. I did take the time to read through, and expanding the momentum system as suggested by yourself and Sahm both look like ideas that at least having a mockup of would be interesting to see.

All that my intent has been is to provide an outside, kinda gets how monks work but not really voice. The pointing out of zee missed goal is what I'd expect anyone to do on any of these special report threads.

Xenthos:

Then maybe it should just be done through the Envoy system.

I don't know where the Stealth Veil cooldown came from (if in this thread I missed it), and while it does seem a little out of place in the special report it is something that is worth considering / discussing on an Envoy level imo.

Though I too am concerned about going back to grapple-grapple-grapple all the way to 5mo and then kicking into high gear. One possible idea might be that if the attack utilizes a grapple it does not add momentum (but also does not lose any, it keeps you moving at the same speed so it does reset the momentum loss timer). Then you have to choose between attacking to build up momentum or grappling for the 'finishing moves' (which would be more of an ender once you've already built it up).

Something to ponder at least.

Agreed. I suggested this exact idea way back on page 6.

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?showtopic=20314&st=100&p=848882&#entry848882

I'd suggest we more narrowly focus the special report on grapple and envoy the rest (veil included). I have some other grapple ideas if it's not too late, but it seems rather late in this whole process to to start brainstorming new ideas.

PS I still think reviewing momentum levels and ka cost is a valid idea, and suitable for special report.

It took less than a day for me to be told I neeed to comment again -_- If I didnt add a comment I just let it go as fine. As a note, I would prefer the skill ideas here be given as bonus envoy slots so they follow the standard process really. There is otherwise a good chance they will have to be envoyed later to be fixed.

I do not agree with some others that grapples need to be momentum neutral.

Sojiro:

Monks
-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless).

-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)

-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p per limb that hits. Ex: If your weapons both miss but the kick hits, that should be 1p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses. I changed this according to janalons suggestion, 1p less per missed attack.

-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.

-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss. You dont lose momentum when a form fails.

-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo, with a caveat that it cost 1-2p if done with the skive modifier. Check with Wobou, might have been 2p when he wrote it, dunno.

-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 4s (+2 from original) and increase the power cost to 2p (currently 1p). Lets not neuter the skill. 3s and 2p should be the worst.

-Change Harmony Akhooshlumang to display a monk's stats to be + or - 15% of their current stats, instead of a randomized number right now.

-Add a 2s delay to Ninjakari Ninukhi before it attempts to pull the victim, with a warning line. Ex: Bob tries to yank Bill (who sees a warning that a chain is about to grab him), 2s later, the yank happens. Who did you ask about this one? If you can shield when you see it start and that makes it fail, god no.

-Add a 2 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil. 3 minute skill with a 2 minute cooldown? Allow a second syntax for 10p that lasts 6 minutes with a 4 minute cooldown as well please. 3 minutes is a tiny window and this still leaves a cooldown.

-Reduce Tattoos TattooMaster's armour effect from 84/84 to 74/74. See Below.

I decided to convert to bullet points:
* TattooMaster only has one effect, diminish that and lets see it coped somewhere.
* Armour is all about to be devalued in the warrior report so this would be a double whammy.
* if this is a "needed change", add the ability to use a 100 weight tattoo.
* TattooMaster requires keeping tattoos for its effect unlike splendours and fullplate.
* I even added flavour and syntax stuff cause I felt like it!

TATTOOMASTER

Example: TATTOOMASTER DAMAGEABSORPTION PSYCHIC

Msg idea:
With great care you meditate solemnly unto your own kata energies, harnessing them deep within your being. As your eyes open you feel clearer as the power of tattoos are yours to imbue.

Its a crappy message but it gets the idea

I think it is more the complexity of monk mechanics that has discouraged discussion in the thread, than an unwillingness to contribute. For myself at least, suggestions for increased momentum levels and a review of ka costs are difficult to get my head around. Especially when trying to judge if it will do anything for what I see as the main problem with monks, i.e the pace and (relative) ease of "big aff" afflicting.

Then there was a shift to fixing 'monks as a whole' which kind of discouraged comment towards those 'big affs.' I've only really sparred Shofangi and Tahtetso, but stand out offenders there (for me, at least) are Butojo for Shofangi (which I understand is already being lined up for a report), and Raktiah'sho & Bomolah'sho for Tahtetso. Shofangi for the near-constant greenlock, and Tahtetso for the number of regen affs that can be stacked, that either lead into insta or no endurance left and insta shortly after.

I've no real objections to the 'solutions' proposed, though the later additions do all seem to be envoyable as they are. My own, perhaps naive thinking to addressing monks has always been, and kinda still remains: 'they should add power costs on x, y & z.' Power is a natural limiting factor for warriors as it is, and could be extended to monks?

These here are the limiting factors to the current skills you've mentioned in Tahtetso:
Raktiah'sho: This move will cause you to lose some momentum, and more will be lost if your target's spine is severed.

Bomolah'sho: This move will cause you to lose some momentum.

I don't like the idea of applying warrior nerfs (power costs) to monks for every ability out there. Before resorting to that, how about we adjust (increase) the momentum loss to these skills if you feel that they're still a tad bit too spammable?

I'm going to have to disagree with your contentions based around tattoomaster, pretty much all of them.

Malarious:


I decided to convert to bullet points:
* TattooMaster only has one effect, diminish that and lets see it coped somewhere.
---If you count having higher and guaranteed​ armor stats as splendors, having more dmp then splendors and having a higher range to pick that dmp from as splendors as a single effect.

* Armour is all about to be devalued in the warrior report so this would be a double whammy.
---Yes, but the problem is that tattoomaster is better then other forms of armor. When all armor gets nerfed, it will still remain better, and will therefore still be a problem.

* if this is a "needed change", add the ability to use a 100 weight tattoo.
---While I don't thing this would be a major problem, see above. Even if the armor was nerfed you still get potentially more dmp then splendors to types splendors can't get. This isn't a needed change either, but could be made for thematic reasons.

* TattooMaster requires keeping tattoos for its effect unlike splendours and fullplate.
---Tattoos don't require upkeep, splendors do (unless you rune them)? Also, boohoo, everyone else keeps full tattoos anyways, it's a good thing to do.

Simply lowering the amount of armor that tattoomaster gives would make it a much more equitable armor method (and would probably erase some of the perhaps unfounded concerns that monks are the best offensive and defensive class).

Well, now I can't win.

I put up suggestions that only deal with monks as a whole (without diving into specific skills, which is hazy territory), which then gets complained about because it's all buffs (because I can't actually go about nerfing general monk mechanics due to its complexity and how far we would actually have to go).

So okay, I fix and revise, I asked envoys about what things about monks are currently issues, so what do you know, they involve skills. So fine, I add them and put them up, asking for thoughts.

And now you guys want to go through the envoy system for the nerfs?

Man.

:D, *pat Sojiro

Sojiro:

-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo, with a caveat that it cost 1-2p if done with the skive modifier.

-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 4s (+2 from original) and increase the power cost to 2p (currently 1p).

-Change Harmony Akhooshlumang to display a monk's stats to be + or - 15% of their current stats, instead of a randomized number right now.

-Add a 2s delay to Ninjakari Ninukhi before it attempts to pull the victim, with a warning line. Ex: Bob tries to yank Bill (who sees a warning that a chain is about to grab him), 2s later, the yank happens.

-Add a 2 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil.

These should be left to envoys. They are small, guild specific changes.

Sojiro:

All of these should probably be taken care of through envoys
.
-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless).

-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)

-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p per limb that hits. Ex: If your weapons both miss but the kick hits, that should be 1p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.

-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.

-Reduce Tattoos TattooMaster's armour effect from 84/84 to 74/74.

All of these should be included in the report, with the additional nerf that Grapples, especially now that they are to be made more reliable, not raise momentum (but still conserve momentum). That seems an appropriate nerf to cover the various buffs, and will discourage the "grapplegrapplegrapplekill" strategy.


Sorry that this is all last minute, but my eyes glaze over when I read paragraph upon paragraph about ka weights and momentum levels and such, and so I didn't really understand what the changes were going to be until Shuyin posted a concise list.

Revised:

Monks:

Mechanics:

-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless).

-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)

-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. Monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.

-Grapples no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3.

-Add new optional parameters for kata perform:
*Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
*Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts).

-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss.

Skills:

-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p less per limb that misses. Ex: If your weapons both hit but the kick misses, that should be 2p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.

-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo, with a caveat that it cost 1-2p if done with the skive modifier.

-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 4s (+2 from original).

-Change Harmony Akhooshlumang to display a monk's stats to be + or - 15% of their current stats, instead of a randomized number right now.

-Add a 2s delay to Ninjakari Ninukhi before it attempts to pull the victim, with a warning line. Ex: Bob tries to yank Bill (who sees a warning that a chain is about to grab him), 2s later, the yank happens. It will only check for shield at the start.

-Add a 1 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Overall duration is still 3 minutes, but you need to wait 1 minute before you can do it again.

-Reduce Tattoos TattooMaster's armour effect from 84/84 to 74/74.

Apparently time pressure encourages people to reply.

It's fine. My eyes glaze over from huge posts too.

Keep posting thoughts.

Might as well toss it in here, too:

Ssaliss:

I posted it earlier, but might as well again: Free-form forms. Instead of having to rely on a limited number of combos, you could create combos on the fly ("KATA FREEFORM "). I think this is technically already doable by redeveloping a form right before you use it, so it wouldn't impact balance at all.

Here's the list of changes that address the suggestion put forth a little earlier:

* Grapples no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum. If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3.
* Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.
* New optional parameters for Kata Perform.
- Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
- Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts).

This last one allows Monks to streamline their forms, requiring far fewer of them and gives an ability to use these forms to build up momentum now that grapples will no longer be able to without being as drastically affected by parry / stancing. You will be able to put in whatever parts are desired, where you believe the target is not stancing or parrying, so that you can continue to build up momentum with your attacks.

Sounds good. Added to the revised report.

I'll leave the skill specific things up until we can properly iron out what to do with them.

The change to grapples looks much better. I'm not sure if this was the point Xenthos was making but a grapple should reset the momentum loss timer if it hits.

I would say that 4 seconds on akhoosh is excessive. 3 seconds sounds reasonable.

Placeus:

The change to grapples looks much better. I'm not sure if this was the point Xenthos was making but a grapple should reset the momentum loss timer if it hits.

I would say that 4 seconds on akhoosh is excessive. 3 seconds sounds reasonable.

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make; also, going a step further. If you hold a grapple, it should not decay while the grapple is being held (stay at the current momentum and only start ticking down when the grapple ends).

My solution is the same as it's always been, in the sig. Since the first change.

Having not had much time to familiarize myself with this thread beyond my participation in the first two pages, I'd like to say I like the look of the changes that Shuyin has up on his latest list. I will take the time to read the thread in a bit, but the changes are all motivated by rational underlying reasons (from my point of view at least) and which target specific problematic areas about monks in general. There are still some specific problems with each guild which can be handled within the envoy system as follow up to this report, assuming most of the suggestions are accepted.

One quick comment on grappling:

The suggestions look great, but I don't see any mention about Acrobatics contort. I'm unsure if it has been discussed and just put aside, but here are my thoughts. Assuming that grapples will no longer build momentum, but just maintain it (as per suggestions), it becomes imperative that acrobats do not simply become "immune" to grapple-enders. The suggestions make grappling and writhing from grapples static numbers, unmodified by anything except racials. Assuming that contort is to maintain functionality as a faster writhe, this means that only +bal races have any chance at all of landing a grapple-ender on an acrobat. This is furrikin, aslaran and faeling.

Here are my suggestions for contort for changes with the grapple times. Allow contort to take a random writhe time of 2.5-3s for grapples. Maintain whatever is currently for all other forms of writhe. This allows them to avoid a grapple-ender of a neutral balance, speed modified monk if they hit the 2.5 writhe time, but not rendering them entirely immune to it. +bal races will not be affected, since they will remain able to end their grapple on their targets without problem.

Alternatively, allow contort to affect grapples by lowering writhe time by 1s, so that contortionists always writhe out at 2s. However, allow certain afflictions to lengthen this time by increments of 0.3s, capping out at 3s (like a normal writhe). Candidates for these should be things that most monks have access to, but which can mostly be given only by arm actions (so that a monk cannot kick and grapple at the same time to automatically lengthen a contortionist's writhe time, everytime. This is, of course, the more difficult suggestion. It allows a contortionist to be immune to grapple enders unless the (neutral bal) monk makes special effort to overcome the defence. Given the rate of monk affliction, it is also theoretically reasonable. This maintains the value of acrobatics as a skillchoice, while ensuring new grapples (without momentum building) doesn't become a pointless endeavour against acrobats.

Other suggestions?

Making grapples be uncontortable is the simplest idea.