Unknown2012-01-30 00:24:37
I think I'm going to have to make an executive decision here.
Monks:
Mechanics:
-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless).
-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)
-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. Monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.
-Grapples will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3.
-Add new optional parameters for kata perform:
*Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
*Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts).
-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss.
Skills:
-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p less per limb that misses. Ex: If your weapons both hit but the kick misses, that should be 2p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.
-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo, with a caveat that it cost 1p if done with the skive modifier.
-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 3s (+1 from original) and increase the power cost +1 (2 total).
-Add a 1s balance loss to Ninjakari Ninukhi regardless of whether or not a target is in the adjacent room.
-Add a 1 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Overall duration is still 3 minutes, but you need to wait 1 minute before you can do it again.
-Reduce Tattoos TattooMaster's armour effect from 84/84 to 74/74.
*Possibly increase a tattoomaster's maximum tattoo weight (50-100 weight "spirit" tattoo for example) if deemed too harsh.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The tattoo armour issue is important namely because all armour (with the exception of warriors) is balanced around 70-75 splendours. Monks are not in any way hurting in the defense department due to acrobatics and psychometabolism. Please note that the suggested warrior changes will not affect 74/74 armour, since I intend to ask that any armour above 75/75 starts to diminish as far as wound protection goes.
Regarding grapples, I've ultimately decided to keep the suggestions regarding them as is. While it is true that grapples should be reliable, given their importance to monk offense, it is equally true that if these changes went in as is, we would return to the days where all monks did was repeatedly grapple until their momentum builds, then unleash for high level afflictions. Having reliable grapples ensures that future envoy reports will be much more reliable due to the absence of randomization.
Frankly, forcing monks to actually 'start slow' (due to a reliance in weapon/weapon/kick) and then ramp up as they gain momentum seems fitting and within the intention of the momentum system. It is also my personal opinion that reports to buff lackluster skills tend to go smoother than reports that nerf skills, so while some may feel that the changes are a bit heavy handed, the intent of this report isn't so much as to improve monks (even though parts of it already does), but to bring them in line with the rest of Lusternia's archetypes.
Monks:
Mechanics:
-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless).
-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)
-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. Monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.
-Grapples will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3.
-Add new optional parameters for kata perform:
*Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
*Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts).
-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss.
Skills:
-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p less per limb that misses. Ex: If your weapons both hit but the kick misses, that should be 2p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.
-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo, with a caveat that it cost 1p if done with the skive modifier.
-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 3s (+1 from original) and increase the power cost +1 (2 total).
-Add a 1s balance loss to Ninjakari Ninukhi regardless of whether or not a target is in the adjacent room.
-Add a 1 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Overall duration is still 3 minutes, but you need to wait 1 minute before you can do it again.
-Reduce Tattoos TattooMaster's armour effect from 84/84 to 74/74.
*Possibly increase a tattoomaster's maximum tattoo weight (50-100 weight "spirit" tattoo for example) if deemed too harsh.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The tattoo armour issue is important namely because all armour (with the exception of warriors) is balanced around 70-75 splendours. Monks are not in any way hurting in the defense department due to acrobatics and psychometabolism. Please note that the suggested warrior changes will not affect 74/74 armour, since I intend to ask that any armour above 75/75 starts to diminish as far as wound protection goes.
Regarding grapples, I've ultimately decided to keep the suggestions regarding them as is. While it is true that grapples should be reliable, given their importance to monk offense, it is equally true that if these changes went in as is, we would return to the days where all monks did was repeatedly grapple until their momentum builds, then unleash for high level afflictions. Having reliable grapples ensures that future envoy reports will be much more reliable due to the absence of randomization.
Frankly, forcing monks to actually 'start slow' (due to a reliance in weapon/weapon/kick) and then ramp up as they gain momentum seems fitting and within the intention of the momentum system. It is also my personal opinion that reports to buff lackluster skills tend to go smoother than reports that nerf skills, so while some may feel that the changes are a bit heavy handed, the intent of this report isn't so much as to improve monks (even though parts of it already does), but to bring them in line with the rest of Lusternia's archetypes.
Lerad2012-01-30 01:40:39
I feel this latest set of changes is pretty much.. well, set. As I've already commented, the underlying motivation and rationale behind each change is pretty solid and well thought out, and the changes are neither cosmetic nor superfluous, and will create noticeable changes in the strategies of monk offence, min-maxers or otherwise, that will see an overall improvement from obnoxious tactics. Most importantly, it brings many aspects of the monk guilds in general back in line with the majority of other archetypes in the game.
As Shuyin has already noted, there are aspects still that need work on, which can be more easily tackled via individual envoy reports. This special report should solve or patch up some of the most egregrious nuisances of the current momentum system while paving the way for supporting envoy reports which can be freed to tackle specific and localized guild-based problems, which is pretty much the exact goal of the special reports in the first place. An example would be acrobatics contort, which can be left to bide as it is for now. If any further changes to increase or decrease its effectiveness on grapples is needed, it can be evaluated and proposed later.
Discussion by all means should continue, as I believe this thread will become a valuable resource for envoys and monk combatants in the future to follow up on. Alternatively, in order not to distract Shuyin from smoothing out the final rough edges of this report, those who have a particularly vehement or wide-scale objection against this report could open a seperate thread for more vocal debate. Meanwhile, if the forum community as a whole can agree to this set of changes in principle, and raise minor tweaks in this thread aimed at one or two of these suggestions which Shuyin has brought up, we can move forward and let the admin mull over it or enter the next phase or whatever.
As Shuyin has already noted, there are aspects still that need work on, which can be more easily tackled via individual envoy reports. This special report should solve or patch up some of the most egregrious nuisances of the current momentum system while paving the way for supporting envoy reports which can be freed to tackle specific and localized guild-based problems, which is pretty much the exact goal of the special reports in the first place. An example would be acrobatics contort, which can be left to bide as it is for now. If any further changes to increase or decrease its effectiveness on grapples is needed, it can be evaluated and proposed later.
Discussion by all means should continue, as I believe this thread will become a valuable resource for envoys and monk combatants in the future to follow up on. Alternatively, in order not to distract Shuyin from smoothing out the final rough edges of this report, those who have a particularly vehement or wide-scale objection against this report could open a seperate thread for more vocal debate. Meanwhile, if the forum community as a whole can agree to this set of changes in principle, and raise minor tweaks in this thread aimed at one or two of these suggestions which Shuyin has brought up, we can move forward and let the admin mull over it or enter the next phase or whatever.
Malarious2012-01-30 02:32:45
Hey I called it, we even provided more specific and better suggestions than original. Stated reasons we opposed changes but once again the lack of understanding in monks for a subjective "greater vision" wins. Funny, there is a whole second problem listed at the start of this thread, which has not only been overlooked but you went in the other direction entirely.
I replied to Fool of Sound but removed it when I realized I had literaly called him a couple names. You are out of your element and several points you made are incorrect or unthought out. If you would like me to clarify you can send me a PM.
The report is near it's end, and like every report monks are given it was administrated by a non monk who enforced their vision. I may change this post if I am proven wrong (people make mistakes). As a result I ask you not quote it at this time.
I replied to Fool of Sound but removed it when I realized I had literaly called him a couple names. You are out of your element and several points you made are incorrect or unthought out. If you would like me to clarify you can send me a PM.
The report is near it's end, and like every report monks are given it was administrated by a non monk who enforced their vision. I may change this post if I am proven wrong (people make mistakes). As a result I ask you not quote it at this time.
Enyalida2012-01-30 02:42:10
The only changes that you didn't 'approve' in your post were armor changes (for which you didn't justify adequate reason to leave out) and grapple changes, and the current incarnation of the grapple change addresses your stated problem with them, that they aren't standard. Really, you are getting several buffs if all of this goes through (no indication that it will) and more solid ground to ask for strategic guild-specific buffs in the future. Some monk stuff is too good. Some stuff isn't good enough. These seem like good ways to level that to a more average level, which can then be adjusted.
EDIT: Also, read the post above yours and the people liking it? Historic monk player who doesn't seem to think this is a huge and major nerf that is unreasonable and everyone trying to dump on your archetype. Where is the difference in viewpoint coming from?
EDIT: Also, read the post above yours and the people liking it? Historic monk player who doesn't seem to think this is a huge and major nerf that is unreasonable and everyone trying to dump on your archetype. Where is the difference in viewpoint coming from?
Malarious2012-01-30 02:52:07
As a more active fighter than lerad who also uses basic grapples (read as not oothai, that ones crap) for several moves and needing it for enfers, I can say that the change to grapples is both going to damage nekotai and devastate Ninjakari. We were not done discussing grapples, we think there has to be a solution, but we prefer surgical over sledge hammer. And the people liking it is largely to the over the top changes.
Again report is for:
"Monks as a whole are considered to be slightly overpowered given the reliability of their offense in giving high level warrior afflictions at a fast rate. However, they also suffer from disproportional ka costs and the limitations of the momentum system."
And for that you want the only real low momentum form of combat removed almost entirely, bravo.
As for Shuyin.....
I expected better but I will renote a couple of things:
-Grapples will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3.
That will destroy Ninjakari as they are, as it also devalues a major goal of theirs. At the same time I know Shofangi have alot of grapples. Tahtetso need to grapple for their lock. and Nekotai use this with amihai (which can end most grapples).
-Add a 1 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Overall duration is still 3 minutes, but you need to wait 1 minute before you can do it again.
Made it 5 and 2. The cooldown makes sense, but 3 minutes is NO time, we wanted to increase it for any cooldown at all really.
Chaindrag was specifically worded, 2s was too harsh, sometimes the target moves and you are penalizing rather heavy given no other skill in the game of this nature (rad, beckon, etc) has this cost as far as I am aware. Beckon will cost eq on failed target, but not if no target.
Tattoo Armour wuld have to be 100 weight to ensure usability, many tats wouldnt work at 50 weight.
Again report is for:
"Monks as a whole are considered to be slightly overpowered given the reliability of their offense in giving high level warrior afflictions at a fast rate. However, they also suffer from disproportional ka costs and the limitations of the momentum system."
And for that you want the only real low momentum form of combat removed almost entirely, bravo.
As for Shuyin.....
I expected better but I will renote a couple of things:
-Grapples will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3.
That will destroy Ninjakari as they are, as it also devalues a major goal of theirs. At the same time I know Shofangi have alot of grapples. Tahtetso need to grapple for their lock. and Nekotai use this with amihai (which can end most grapples).
-Add a 1 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Overall duration is still 3 minutes, but you need to wait 1 minute before you can do it again.
Made it 5 and 2. The cooldown makes sense, but 3 minutes is NO time, we wanted to increase it for any cooldown at all really.
Chaindrag was specifically worded, 2s was too harsh, sometimes the target moves and you are penalizing rather heavy given no other skill in the game of this nature (rad, beckon, etc) has this cost as far as I am aware. Beckon will cost eq on failed target, but not if no target.
Tattoo Armour wuld have to be 100 weight to ensure usability, many tats wouldnt work at 50 weight.
Unknown2012-01-30 02:55:46
I'm not particularly interested in hearing your clarification; I feel that if you had a stong argument, you would have made it. I alo feel that you have little room to complain; in exchange for making speed outliers no longer so overpowered (grapple changes), as well as a few nerfs to key overpowered skills, you are getting no less than four significant buffs. I have more experience with monks than you realise, and "refuting" my arguments by claiming that I am "out of my element" instead of giving adequate and coherent reason is more than a little rude and disingenous, as it makes you sound bitter, and therefore lacking in objectivity.
In any case, if nothing else, this report will allow further changes to monks to go through more easily, base on the fact that building momentum as an outlier should no long be so easy. This will hopefully allow deficiencies in the individual skills sets to be more addressed more effectively.
I will apologize for my accusations against the monk envoys however; I was misinformed as to how much effort they have put in to balancing their skills.
In any case, if nothing else, this report will allow further changes to monks to go through more easily, base on the fact that building momentum as an outlier should no long be so easy. This will hopefully allow deficiencies in the individual skills sets to be more addressed more effectively.
I will apologize for my accusations against the monk envoys however; I was misinformed as to how much effort they have put in to balancing their skills.
Enyalida2012-01-30 02:56:37
Just reposting things that have been said before sucks, but:
Sojiro:
Frankly, forcing monks to actually 'start slow' (due to a reliance in weapon/weapon/kick) and then ramp up as they gain momentum seems fitting and within the intention of the momentum system. It is also my personal opinion that reports to buff lackluster skills tend to go smoother than reports that nerf skills, so while some may feel that the changes are a bit heavy handed, the intent of this report isn't so much as to improve monks (even though parts of it already does), but to bring them in line with the rest of Lusternia's archetypes.
Xenthos2012-01-30 02:57:36
In exchange for giving another low-momentum form of combat (easier to target forms to bypass parry / stance).
As well as the ability to streamline forms greatly!
As well as the ability to streamline forms greatly!
Janalon2012-01-30 02:58:02
Keep one thing in mind-- this is only a "finalized" report for all intents and purposes. If I understand the process correctly, now Shu will have that sit-down conversation with admin. It's not like the forum or even Shuyin has a final say as to what the admins & coders implement.
Xenthos2012-01-30 02:59:18
Janalon:
Keep one thing in mind-- this is only a "finalized" report for all intents and purposes. If I understand the process correctly, now Shu will have that sit-down conversation with admin. It's not like the forum or even Shuyin has a final say as to what the admins & coders implement.
Correct.
Xiel2012-01-30 03:47:46
Not meaning to interrupt your lively little discussion here, but I feel a need to interject: if folk notice a discrepancy in content of AB's (mind, not format, content since I have a habit of making things look neater) on my little pet project, feel free to just let me know. I, as well as everyone else, appreciate being kept up to date and don't intend on misinforming folk.
-scuttle away-
-scuttle away-
Malarious2012-01-30 03:51:13
Fool of Sound: We have a clan whose sole job has been handling envoy reports, fixes, etc. If you look back you can probably tell when we formed monkish. I did not explain them all to avoid making them sound bad, call it a cooler, but basically you say things like "You get twice the DMP of proofings", actually a tailor with a proofing can get that same tat, total of 20 dmp, they did not lose out.
This was what I meant earlier about confusing tattoos and kata - tattoos with the trans skill. Anyone can have tats, and tattoomaster only does 1 thing, rest of it is automatic.
Enyailda: You quoted shuyin.. I brought this up indirectly earlier, I will be more direct. "seems fitting" thats his subjective opinion, he even says it seems fitting, not that it is. He is placing his view on what a monk should be there. It also states the goal is to "bring them in line with other archetypes", and yet the illuminati ents still exist. passive transfix every 12s? (If you say nuh uh it strips sixth sense, I have a trick to show you). I took the report to monks beacuse he felt he was in a lose lose situation, we came back with some modifications and some unresolved issues.
Xenthos: Was that a complete thought?
We were still discussing:
- Solving the grapple issue. Increasing the grapple writhe came up as that means slower grapple offenses too.
- Were still discussing grapples as being OP, which is where the lock change came from. That was the only one that seemed over the top really so we put in a change for it. Otherwise we were discussing other options still.
- Ninukhi was specifically worded, as it is, you are punishing one skill and ignoring all other skills that can be used the exact same way. This feels like a Bias change.
Ninjakari have requested some space to redesign some areas of their guild, right now they use ALOT of grappling and it is in several of their skills. This requires a minor overhaul, will get back to you on that.
NOTE: I am not taking a stab at Shuyin. But the reason monkish was formed was to get opinions which did not start with "delete monks" or "nerf monks". We acknowledged issues. When he is subjective it is likely to go poorly and I tried to talk to sahmiam. Which resulted in the above.
Sorry if these have been long, I prefer small but I have not been feeling well and in ways I cannot explain that has thrown me into writing more.
This was what I meant earlier about confusing tattoos and kata - tattoos with the trans skill. Anyone can have tats, and tattoomaster only does 1 thing, rest of it is automatic.
Enyailda: You quoted shuyin.. I brought this up indirectly earlier, I will be more direct. "seems fitting" thats his subjective opinion, he even says it seems fitting, not that it is. He is placing his view on what a monk should be there. It also states the goal is to "bring them in line with other archetypes", and yet the illuminati ents still exist. passive transfix every 12s? (If you say nuh uh it strips sixth sense, I have a trick to show you). I took the report to monks beacuse he felt he was in a lose lose situation, we came back with some modifications and some unresolved issues.
Xenthos: Was that a complete thought?
We were still discussing:
- Solving the grapple issue. Increasing the grapple writhe came up as that means slower grapple offenses too.
- Were still discussing grapples as being OP, which is where the lock change came from. That was the only one that seemed over the top really so we put in a change for it. Otherwise we were discussing other options still.
- Ninukhi was specifically worded, as it is, you are punishing one skill and ignoring all other skills that can be used the exact same way. This feels like a Bias change.
Ninjakari have requested some space to redesign some areas of their guild, right now they use ALOT of grappling and it is in several of their skills. This requires a minor overhaul, will get back to you on that.
NOTE: I am not taking a stab at Shuyin. But the reason monkish was formed was to get opinions which did not start with "delete monks" or "nerf monks". We acknowledged issues. When he is subjective it is likely to go poorly and I tried to talk to sahmiam. Which resulted in the above.
Sorry if these have been long, I prefer small but I have not been feeling well and in ways I cannot explain that has thrown me into writing more.
Janalon2012-01-30 03:53:13
Xiel:
Not meaning to interrupt your lively little discussion here, but I feel a need to interject: if folk notice a discrepancy in content of AB's (mind, not format, content since I have a habit of making things look neater) on my little pet project, feel free to just let me know. I, as well as everyone else, appreciate being kept up to date and don't intend on misinforming folk.
-scuttle away-
I only noticed Veil last night when there was monk clan discussion about the special report. But I'll absolutely let you know if I see any other discrepancies.
Xenthos2012-01-30 03:55:16
Yes it was, I just didn't quote the bit of your post that it was aimed at. It should be relatively obvious though.
Edit: Especially because it contains the same wording. :P
Edit: Especially because it contains the same wording. :P
Unknown2012-01-30 04:21:13
I've reviewed the suggestions and adjusted the balance time for ninukhi.
Malarious2012-01-30 06:15:15
Post removed.
Unknown2012-01-30 06:34:08
Lerad2012-01-31 07:33:19
Just to give some perspective. I'm in support of the grapple changes personally, but as a monk, I can see where Mal is coming from. Despite that, I still personally feel it is more beneficial in the long run to push on with the changes as it is. foolofsound, just because Mal is raising objections against the change doesn't make him "lack objectivity" or "being intentionally mercenary about buffing his archetype".
Just because there is no consensus about a change doesn't diminish its validity, nor does consensus FOR a change make objections invalid or biased. Please bear in mind that a forum is meant to air differences in the hope of finding a workable solution. If a special report has nothing but "YES, THIS IS GREAT" posts in it, I'd personally be more inclined to take a harder look at it and less inclined to just implement it out of hand.
For the sake of those who do not understand, here's an explanation as to why making grapples not build momentum is an overall nerf to monks everywhere. As a Nekotai, the non-grapple afflictions I have access to at low momentum are as follows:
250ka
2 angknek (any one of sliced limbs, open gut, gashed chest and punctured lung for each angknek)
1 kick + kaiga (0-3 vessels)
1 kick + pinchnerve (paralysis)
1 spronghai (haemophilia)
350ka
Nothing extra, +100 ka for any of the above setups is not enough to add any other affliction.
450ka
1 angknek + 1 kick + kaiga
1 angknek + 1 spronghai
2 angkai (any one of pierced limbs, relapsing, severed phrenic, removed eyeball for each angkai)
1 angkai + 1 spronghai
1 angkai + 1 kick + kaiga
1 angkai + 1 kick + pinchnerve
From 4mo onwards, I have 750ka to use, which unlocks all of the afflictions nekotai are feared for (slit-throat, severed spine, tendons, mangles), as well as the heavy weighted nekotai mods which otherwise can't be used (200ka for lowering poison resist, 200ka for hiding poisons, 100ka for extra damage when poisons transfer, 125ka for poison on kicks.) as well as the heavy bleeding that comes with haemophilia (spronghai deals bleeding based on current momentum).
Until 4mo, however, everything a nekotai has in terms of afflictions is listed above. Of those listed above, the only things that prone or hinder are sliced thighs (only upon enemy movement), open gut (on a 10s tick) and pinchnerve (paralysis will be given if wounds are high. Lower wounds = less chance). And, of course, the poisons that the nekotai wishes to use. Usually paralysis or broken arms/legs or stupidity.
Note that of the afflictions listed above, severed phrenic and removed eyeballs cause momentum loss, and is usually unused at that momentum level. Not to mention only removed eyeballs have any practical application in hindering an opponent's offense (but not his escape). As an addendum to this note, angkai only gives afflictions at mo3 or above, which explains its absence from all previous momentum levels.
Assuming 3.5s balance (the actual non-speeded, neutral balance from a combo is around 4s), to get to 4mo, a Nekotai has to take 14s at the absolute minimum. The Nekotai also has a window of 4.5s to act again after he regains balance, after which he drops 1 momentum. (8s for a momentum drop, starting from the last hit by the monk). Hitting rebound, parry, stance or simply being hindered during this time will lengthen the time needed to get to 4mo.
The Nekotai has many tools to get around this, most reliably power skills (raze modifier, +2mo slash) but which do no affliction.
Grapples on the other hand prevent movement, and disables a limb. It ignores parry and rebound. It builds momentum. This is the reason why it is the go-to skill for all monks at low momentum. Because it is simply superior in almost all ways to normal slashes. And because it's the only way to get to high momentum without spending lots of power. Anything that puts stumbles on a warrior's offence works just as well against a monk without grapples.
A warrior, depending on his spec, can build the wounds needed even when hitting parry, and once they get wounds going, the attrition swings in their favour. Whereas a monk that loses his high momentum (drops from 4/5 to 0-3) can be forced to restart his entire momentum building. This is exacerbated by the fact that for some monk guilds (nekotai specifically) dropping to low momentum is the only way to pull off the much feared combos in the first place.
Making grapples not build momentum removes one of the reliable ways a monk has to get to the condition that he can actually compete against other archetypes with. Also, believe it or not, the envoys have been working over the past few months to bring high momentum monks in-line, nerfing the most egregrious combos and implementing heavy, debilitating costs that balances the damage and affliction output. The current monks aren't overpowered - but they still receive flak (and rightfully so) because grapples allow them to simply fly over the obstacles that warriors spend power and tear out hair to overcome.
This is the rationale behind my support. By removing pure grappling as the highway shortcut to high momentum, the way is paved to reduce debilitating penalties to high momentum combos and give monks some of the perks to overcome stancing/parrying that warriors have. The proposed grappling changes won't make grappling for momentum impossible, either. If speed-modified, a grapple can still resolve in time for the grapple ender to build momentum (assuming that a non momentum loss grapple-ender is used) thanks to the static balances that the changes would implement. Using grapples to build momentum is still possible, but it requires the speed mod, and it takes 2 balances to build 1 momentum instead of 1 balance.
I feel this is a decent enough tradeoff. For nekotai at least, it won't break their combat, but it'll force a period of struggle where we have to deal with parry and stancing without the warriors' advantages, until followup changes in the envoy system are made to balance the new system.
Just because there is no consensus about a change doesn't diminish its validity, nor does consensus FOR a change make objections invalid or biased. Please bear in mind that a forum is meant to air differences in the hope of finding a workable solution. If a special report has nothing but "YES, THIS IS GREAT" posts in it, I'd personally be more inclined to take a harder look at it and less inclined to just implement it out of hand.
For the sake of those who do not understand, here's an explanation as to why making grapples not build momentum is an overall nerf to monks everywhere. As a Nekotai, the non-grapple afflictions I have access to at low momentum are as follows:
250ka
2 angknek (any one of sliced limbs, open gut, gashed chest and punctured lung for each angknek)
1 kick + kaiga (0-3 vessels)
1 kick + pinchnerve (paralysis)
1 spronghai (haemophilia)
350ka
Nothing extra, +100 ka for any of the above setups is not enough to add any other affliction.
450ka
1 angknek + 1 kick + kaiga
1 angknek + 1 spronghai
2 angkai (any one of pierced limbs, relapsing, severed phrenic, removed eyeball for each angkai)
1 angkai + 1 spronghai
1 angkai + 1 kick + kaiga
1 angkai + 1 kick + pinchnerve
From 4mo onwards, I have 750ka to use, which unlocks all of the afflictions nekotai are feared for (slit-throat, severed spine, tendons, mangles), as well as the heavy weighted nekotai mods which otherwise can't be used (200ka for lowering poison resist, 200ka for hiding poisons, 100ka for extra damage when poisons transfer, 125ka for poison on kicks.) as well as the heavy bleeding that comes with haemophilia (spronghai deals bleeding based on current momentum).
Until 4mo, however, everything a nekotai has in terms of afflictions is listed above. Of those listed above, the only things that prone or hinder are sliced thighs (only upon enemy movement), open gut (on a 10s tick) and pinchnerve (paralysis will be given if wounds are high. Lower wounds = less chance). And, of course, the poisons that the nekotai wishes to use. Usually paralysis or broken arms/legs or stupidity.
Note that of the afflictions listed above, severed phrenic and removed eyeballs cause momentum loss, and is usually unused at that momentum level. Not to mention only removed eyeballs have any practical application in hindering an opponent's offense (but not his escape). As an addendum to this note, angkai only gives afflictions at mo3 or above, which explains its absence from all previous momentum levels.
Assuming 3.5s balance (the actual non-speeded, neutral balance from a combo is around 4s), to get to 4mo, a Nekotai has to take 14s at the absolute minimum. The Nekotai also has a window of 4.5s to act again after he regains balance, after which he drops 1 momentum. (8s for a momentum drop, starting from the last hit by the monk). Hitting rebound, parry, stance or simply being hindered during this time will lengthen the time needed to get to 4mo.
The Nekotai has many tools to get around this, most reliably power skills (raze modifier, +2mo slash) but which do no affliction.
Grapples on the other hand prevent movement, and disables a limb. It ignores parry and rebound. It builds momentum. This is the reason why it is the go-to skill for all monks at low momentum. Because it is simply superior in almost all ways to normal slashes. And because it's the only way to get to high momentum without spending lots of power. Anything that puts stumbles on a warrior's offence works just as well against a monk without grapples.
A warrior, depending on his spec, can build the wounds needed even when hitting parry, and once they get wounds going, the attrition swings in their favour. Whereas a monk that loses his high momentum (drops from 4/5 to 0-3) can be forced to restart his entire momentum building. This is exacerbated by the fact that for some monk guilds (nekotai specifically) dropping to low momentum is the only way to pull off the much feared combos in the first place.
Making grapples not build momentum removes one of the reliable ways a monk has to get to the condition that he can actually compete against other archetypes with. Also, believe it or not, the envoys have been working over the past few months to bring high momentum monks in-line, nerfing the most egregrious combos and implementing heavy, debilitating costs that balances the damage and affliction output. The current monks aren't overpowered - but they still receive flak (and rightfully so) because grapples allow them to simply fly over the obstacles that warriors spend power and tear out hair to overcome.
This is the rationale behind my support. By removing pure grappling as the highway shortcut to high momentum, the way is paved to reduce debilitating penalties to high momentum combos and give monks some of the perks to overcome stancing/parrying that warriors have. The proposed grappling changes won't make grappling for momentum impossible, either. If speed-modified, a grapple can still resolve in time for the grapple ender to build momentum (assuming that a non momentum loss grapple-ender is used) thanks to the static balances that the changes would implement. Using grapples to build momentum is still possible, but it requires the speed mod, and it takes 2 balances to build 1 momentum instead of 1 balance.
I feel this is a decent enough tradeoff. For nekotai at least, it won't break their combat, but it'll force a period of struggle where we have to deal with parry and stancing without the warriors' advantages, until followup changes in the envoy system are made to balance the new system.
Janalon2012-01-31 12:19:26
@Lerad,
You could also list nekai+nekai+speed or nekai+nekai+kick to the 0-2mo forms. Yeah, a single nekai is lackluster, but the N+N+K combo gives better chances that one of the three actions will land and grant momentum gain. No doubt every Nekotai combatant would laugh at this combo, and rightfully so. But at least this is another option.
Our Angknek affs are also sub-par (for solo combat) in terms of hindering BECAUSE they require sticking for a certain amount of time before they fully proc. Given a 3.5s baseline balance (with what, something like 2.8 with speed) our targets can nearly heal at the same pace as we can deal herb based afflictions.
I talk about this problem here:
http://forums.luster...81
And offer a possible "envoy-able" solution here:
http://forums.luster...87
Not sure how the other monk guilds fare in the 0-2mo momentum building. I am concerned about how the grapple/momentum change will impact Ninjakari, and would love to hear directly from a member of that guild. It does come to mind that we might eventually need to exempt specific grapples from the momentum change on the condition they have +450 ka weighting (placing it out of range of early momentum building forms).
Now, keep in mind the other proposed change that a monk would never drop below 2mo, which mitigates some of the momentum building concerns (especially in group combat). However, it also re-opens the possibility of building momentum on a pet/friend, especially given possible frustrations with that 0-2mo window. Yup. I don't think we can isolate talks about the grapple issue without considering the other conditions of the monk report as a whole.
On the overwhelmingly good side, this proposal does inhibit the Nekotai Oriama regen lock loops which is fine by me. This possible change means I can review that action/affliction from a new perspective.
You could also list nekai+nekai+speed or nekai+nekai+kick to the 0-2mo forms. Yeah, a single nekai is lackluster, but the N+N+K combo gives better chances that one of the three actions will land and grant momentum gain. No doubt every Nekotai combatant would laugh at this combo, and rightfully so. But at least this is another option.
Our Angknek affs are also sub-par (for solo combat) in terms of hindering BECAUSE they require sticking for a certain amount of time before they fully proc. Given a 3.5s baseline balance (with what, something like 2.8 with speed) our targets can nearly heal at the same pace as we can deal herb based afflictions.
I talk about this problem here:
http://forums.luster...81
And offer a possible "envoy-able" solution here:
http://forums.luster...87
Not sure how the other monk guilds fare in the 0-2mo momentum building. I am concerned about how the grapple/momentum change will impact Ninjakari, and would love to hear directly from a member of that guild. It does come to mind that we might eventually need to exempt specific grapples from the momentum change on the condition they have +450 ka weighting (placing it out of range of early momentum building forms).
Now, keep in mind the other proposed change that a monk would never drop below 2mo, which mitigates some of the momentum building concerns (especially in group combat). However, it also re-opens the possibility of building momentum on a pet/friend, especially given possible frustrations with that 0-2mo window. Yup. I don't think we can isolate talks about the grapple issue without considering the other conditions of the monk report as a whole.
On the overwhelmingly good side, this proposal does inhibit the Nekotai Oriama regen lock loops which is fine by me. This possible change means I can review that action/affliction from a new perspective.
Unknown2012-01-31 18:25:26
Janalon:
Now, keep in mind the other proposed change that a monk would never drop below 2mo, which mitigates some of the momentum building concerns (especially in group combat). However, it also re-opens the possibility of building momentum on a pet/friend, especially given possible frustrations with that 0-2mo window.
Perhaps we could allows the various target air/ground skills to raise momentum up to 2, if they can't already. That way, monks can at least partially prepare their setup before battle,
