I use kaife air but momentum does not last very long

Then you might as well just delete 0 and 1 momentum.

Then you might as well just rework the momentum levels and the ka capacity they give.

Then you might as well just delete momentum.

Frankly speaking, I'll be first on the picket line to scrap the entire momentum system, but this report is aimed at rocking the boat to reorganize the things in it rather than blowing a hole through the hull, unfortunately. Not having targetting momentum loss be incurred past 2mo is a large step forward to correcting the painful aspect of fighting as a monk in large groups (and in bashing, to a certain extent) and I suggest we might want to see what the admin say before making more drastic measures.

Since no one asked the obvious question from a Ninjakari's aspect, I’ll decide to care again enough to respond. Shuyin’s latest post is the unbolded, my replies will be bolded.

Monks:

Mechanics:

-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless). Excellent. This will undo some of the problems introduced to bashing due to the changes over the past year and some time.

-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.) Good addition.

-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. Monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial. Here’s where I begin to worry. I’m not…super against it, but this does adversely affect Ninjakari specifically. Ninshi is a grapple, but it’s also our staple skill. It leads to ninughi, illgatharu, constrict, and 1 to 2 more enders. The simple fact is that no other monk guild relies on grapples like we do, and this is very close to removing the effectiveness of runes on jakaris entirely. Not quite, but close.

-Grapples will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3. This simply cannot affect ninshi. As above, much of the guild relies on it, and there are balance measures in place. If it must affect ninshi, then I think Ninjakari need a full rewrite, hands down, and no, not through envoys. No other guild relies on grapples to the extent we do. This one simple change will make the guild’s narrow offense collapse, and I dare say into nothingness.

-Add new optional parameters for kata perform:
*Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
*Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts). I think it should be at least optional (or a requirement) to put 'none' if you use the extra syntax to override one but not all bodyparts. In some cases, skill order matters and moving the 'none' skill to first or last could throw that off. For instance, KATA PERFORM TESTFORM SAHMIAM NONE LARM RLEG or KATA PERFORM TESTFORM SHUYIN HEAD NONE LLEG, etc.

-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss.

Skills:

-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p less per limb that misses. Ex: If your weapons both hit but the kick misses, that should be 2p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses. Good idea.

-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo, with a caveat that it cost 1p if done with the skive modifier.

-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 3s (+1 from original) and increase the power cost +1 (2 total).

-Add a 1s balance loss to Ninjakari Ninukhi regardless of whether or not a target is in the adjacent room. Eh, no. Not unless we’re doing this across the board to all adjacent-room forced movement skills. If I remember correctly, there are other forced-movement skills that don’t have this restriction

-Add a 1 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Overall duration is still 3 minutes, but you need to wait 1 minute before you can do it again.

-Reduce Tattoos TattooMaster's armour effect from 84/84 to 74/74.
*Possibly increase a tattoomaster's maximum tattoo weight (50-100 weight "spirit" tattoo for example) if deemed too harsh.

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Otherwise, I approve of the changes, and I really do agree with the grapple changes (if ninshi is ignored or if Ninjakari get a rewrite). The Ninukhi change...it seems a bit jaded, was brought to envoys once (and nerfed) and I fully support it provided that all the other forced-movement skills have the same restriction.

Would making these changes not affect Ninshi allow ninjas to maintain an effective offense? Alternatively, is it possible to go into wrapped chain mode until higher momentum is reached?

If these grapple changes go through with regards to momentum, all grapple enders should be examined and momentum drops potentially messed with.

EDIT: Or, can you come up with a way to make grapple-to-win not a hax method with standardized grapples?

foolofsound:

Would making these changes not affect Ninshi allow ninjas to maintain an effective offense? Alternatively, is it possible to go into wrapped chain mode until higher momentum is reached?

Enyalida:

If these grapple changes go through with regards to momentum, all grapple enders should be examined and momentum drops potentially messed with.

EDIT: Or, can you come up with a way to make grapple-to-win not a hax method with standardized grapples?

Fool: If ninshi is unaffected to both changes, I fully approve.

Enya: I'm happy to say that Ninja already has this in place. Not going to say that it's perfect, but I did push some nerfs into our enders.

Part of the problem is that for 3 monk guilds, grapple as the momentum builder is the shortcut to high momentum. For the ninja, it is their bread-and-butter. Whether or not this is the way the guild is designed or if the ability just kept gaining more use throughout time until it has replaced the originally designed low-momentum moves is hard to say.

Just for perspective: the vanilla grapples are low in ka cost (allowing them to be used at low mo) because their effect doesn't warrant a high ka cost. Their advantages over normal weapon slashes (rebound/parry immunity) make them a better choice for the guilds that are designed to use slashes at low mo. This is the problem. Ninjakari ninshi may or may not have been designed to be the low mo ability, but as things stand, it is used as such (according to Sahm, anyway).

Or, can you come up with a way to make grapple-to-win not a hax method with standardized grapples?

Not sure what you mean by this. There is no "grapple-to-win" if the changes go through. Grapples and grapple enders alone are perfectly balanced (except the vanilla grapples which are used at low mo to bypass rebound/parry) because they drastically lower the monk's damage, wounds and affliction output in return for one or two strong afflictions.

High momentum grapples aren't the problem, low are, since they allow the monk to avoid both rebound and parry, and inflict a dangerous amount of hindering at low levels.

Maybe we could make grapples not raise momentum until at least momentum 3 or 4, then work as normal...

Lerad:

Part of the problem is that for 3 monk guilds, grapple as the momentum builder is the shortcut to high momentum. For the ninja, it is their bread-and-butter. Whether or not this is the way the guild is designed or if the ability just kept gaining more use throughout time until it has replaced the originally designed low-momentum moves is hard to say.

Just for perspective: the vanilla grapples are low in ka cost (allowing them to be used at low mo) because their effect doesn't warrant a high ka cost. Their advantages over normal weapon slashes (rebound/parry immunity) make them a better choice for the guilds that are designed to use slashes at low mo. This is the problem. Ninjakari ninshi may or may not have been designed to be the low mo ability, but as things stand, it is used as such (according to Sahm, anyway).



Not sure what you mean by this. There is no "grapple-to-win" if the changes go through. Grapples and grapple enders alone are perfectly balanced (except the vanilla grapples which are used at low mo to bypass rebound/parry) because they drastically lower the monk's damage, wounds and affliction output in return for one or two strong afflictions.

Ninshi is used from mo0 to mo5, not just at low levels. We have enders that will work at all levels, and much of the Ninja offense relies on knowing when you can use the enders. Basically, assume that this change shifts a significant amount of the ninjakari's offence up 1 momentum.

And I definitely think that weapon stats should affect Ninshi, as Lerad said, it is our bread and butter skill.

EDIT: If memory serves me correctly, ninsh doesn't bypass parry/rebound.

SECOND EDIT: Ninshi, in fact, does NOT bypass parry/rebound/stance, so those are all active defenses against it. I'm wondering if the grapple limitation should extend to only kata grapples? I don't know if the grapples being spammed from other guilds are KATA HOLD or something else from within their skillsets.

SECOND EDIT: Ninshi, in fact, does NOT bypass parry/rebound/stance, so those are all active defenses against it. I'm wondering if the grapple limitation should extend to only kata grapples? I don't know if the grapples being spammed from other guilds are KATA HOLD or something else from within their skillsets.



Name: Hold0
Action 1: hold
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers: speed
Used ka: 250



Name: Choke2
Action 1: choke head
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers: speed
Used ka: 300



Name: Oothai3
Action 1: oothai head
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers: speed
Used ka: 450

Here are my 0mo - 3mo grapple momentum gain forms. 4mo - 5mo utilize oothai and start to incorporate bleeding kicks. Oothai/kaiga spam is a "last resort" limitation that came as a result of the speed monk nerf.

foolofsound:

High momentum grapples aren't the problem, low are, since they allow the monk to avoid both rebound and parry, and inflict a dangerous amount of hindering at low levels.

Maybe we could make grapples not raise momentum until at least momentum 3 or 4, then work as normal...

IF after a fair review of the implications of the neutral momentum grapple proposal is considered unfavorable, THEN perhaps someone could explore the option of raising ka costs on the basic kata hold/choke/lock to place it out of early momentum gain stages. Though, to be honest, I don't think this would create the monk balance (or provide the illusion thereof) that people are seeking through this special report.

Janalon:


IF after a fair review of the implications of the neutral momentum grapple proposal is considered unfavorable, THEN perhaps someone could explore the option of raising ka costs on the basic kata hold/choke/lock to place it out of early momentum gain stages. Though, to be honest, I don't think this would create the monk balance (or provide the illusion thereof) that people are seeking through this special report.

Raising ka costs would literally kill the skills. In all honesty, perhaps the best solution would be to cap the grapples so that they can't give you momentum above 2. I'd say that anyone using grapples after that, excluding trying to keep a person in the room, is wasting their forms. I rarely used ninshi to bui momentum (I'm not contradicting myself when I say ninshi needs to build momentum), going for more afflictions and some bleeding.

I know the topics purpose is over but I wanted to use this as the "open" communication channel to get some new thoughts and discussion. This report FAILED to fully address the stated problems, in fact it exacerbated the second half with the grapple change.

Problem:
Monks as a whole are considered to be slightly overpowered given the reliability of their offense in giving high level warrior afflictions at a fast rate. However, they also suffer from disproportional ka costs and the limitations of the momentum system.

The main ways to address this include:
1) Removal of the momentum system (haha I made a funny)
2) Lower ka costs on skills.
3) Create/Implement new skills to be used at low levels.
4) Review costs outright.

We tried to fix some of this in the Nekotai through things like lowering angkai to 200 ka (previously 350). Reducing costs adds variety and options overall, but having something usable at low momentum means you either have no effecft at all or you used grapples to build up more fluidly.


Yes I have some inside jokes some of you will get in this, but the topic itself is serious. Especially if you are not in monkish, good time to share your thoughts.

Simply lowering costs across the board addresses one of the problems (ka cost, though the real problem there is variety/linear-ness), but does not address the other problem (monks at high momentum are lawlwut). Instead, what lowering costs will do is make the latter problem bigger, as things usually restricted to high momentum will be useable at lower momentums. As such your 2 and 3 suggestions fail to address the entirety of the monk situation and would result in only buffs for monks. Adjusting the costs of things, both down and up, as well as making it harder (yes, harder) to get to higher momentums looks to be the best solution to me. You shouldn't be completely useless at low momentum (which you aren't atm, imo), but you shouldn't be able to easily get to the point where you are dealing out multiple regen affs at once and dealing massive damage.

Malarious:

Problem:
Monks as a whole are considered to be slightly overpowered given the reliability of their offense in giving high level warrior afflictions at a fast rate. However, they also suffer from disproportional ka costs and the limitations of the momentum system.

Striking out the section that you don't like hardly makes us non-monks confident that you are willing to discuss anything equitable (and you wonder why we pushed for an executive decision).

As for my solution to part 1:
-Remove monk wounding and increased damage building based on wounding.

I would be willing to throw out all of the grapple nerfs, as well as address the lower momentum limitations, in exchange for this one nerf.

Remember we can make other changes too Enya. Like skills can be given mo level checks. Shofangi slitthroat only slits at mo4+ for instance. Some skills could just be given a minimum momentum requirement to deliver the affliction, in fact we could use that to deliver other affs (again if we use shofangi, it gives mangled tongue if unable to slit throat).

foolofsound:

Striking out the section that you don't like hardly makes us non-monks confident that you are willing to discuss anything equitable (and you wonder why we pushed for an executive decision).

The first half of the "problem" was Shuyin's report, he did not touch the part of the problem I left, which is why I brought it back up. I am not here to discuss something he already has a report up for. Stop grabbing for wolf cries :P

Your change request is to remove or lower wounding? A kick is 210 wounding, and a nekai is 60, give or take random factors. You can apply once every 2 forms and not have wounds built up. Damage is actually a kill condition, if you focus on it you can get some wounds and damage to build up (which is the reason we have things like twisted limb).

I cannot help but feel you are looking more for a target than anything else. This will sound stupid but relax a minute or two, forget anything someone told you or that you heard. Using only information you know make statements on that. You said "Consistant with the power levels of other archetypes"... Nihilist, TK anything, Illuminati, Institute, and several warriors are all on par off the top of my head. We can duke it out and either could win, you seem to believe we are the be all end all and this is presuming alot.


Thanks for the comments though you two, I would like to try to see if we can get a good low level thing in the works given they are like entirely grapples right now (and for several very good reasons).

We really shouldn't be attempting to balance anything around Illuminati...

Uh...back when I fought, damage was what I went for. That was through setting up specific combos through a combinations of afflictions, timing, and luck to allow the wounds/damage to accumulate. By damage, I mean stacking wounds, bleeding, and flat damage and forcing the person to pick between curing real affs or healing the aforementioned ones.

Monks are more problematic than they need to be because most people don't understand the nuances or how to counter them. It's very possible for any person to shut down a Ninjakari's offense completely, but it does require knowledge of what to expect, when it's coming, and timing.

An additional point:

Some skills have wound requirement, and wounds are directly related to a monk's ability to successfully apply poisons (which are required for locks). As a Ninjakari, one would be -stupid- not to build wounds in addition to other afflictions as you'll never (basically) get a successful lock without them.


I did propose a means to balance monks, but it was ignored. It's earlier in the thread.

I feel that I've developed a passble strategy when fighting monks, though I still constantly feel as though I am somewhat outclasses and on the edge of being overwhelmed.

The problem I have with monks is that even with the significant amount of hindering I can inflict on them (Queen's Lament, song effects, tarot, dodging, parrying, rebound), the monk need only get a single lucky hit in on order to immediatly become much more dangerous. I must constantly be giving up part of my offense (blanknoting, setting up aurics, and trying to stick plague affs for my more dangerous song effects) in order to try to keep the monk from building momentum. Further, more than once I've seen a low momentum monk run away, punch their teammate/pet a few times, and come back with 2-3 momentum (enough to force me to forgoe my offense altogether, often times giving the monk sufficient time to reset my entire offense). Further, a monk who have even 3-4 momentum can usually prone me, beastspit sensitivity at me, and then proceed to attack me for half my health, all with very little setup. I can usually survive this, but it forces me to run away or otherwise abandon my offense. To compare, in order to attack others for halfish of their health, I need to have five plague affs and two aurics up, as well as be sure that hearing is stripped. Even then, I can only hit for this much damage every song tick, and with pretty precise timing at that. I can generally kill lower Con players with a CarillionKnell at full plague+Manabarbs+Egovice along with beastspitting Sensitivity and a MinorSixth or two, but this takes quite a bit of setup that is also very easy to disrupt, especially in the early stages. Monks simple get to this level of threat too quickly if not constantly hindered.

As a disclaimer, I am not a demigod (though I am pretty close), nor do I have an extensive collection of artifacts. I have most of my skills transed though, and have a pretty good curing system, which I have further modified to taste. I am fully aware that I can't compete against high-end monks, but I shouldn't have this much trouble with monks of comparable (or lesser!) level and might.



I acknowledge that monks have problems that should be addressed though the report, and testimony from other monks, plus a crash course in monk strategy/mechanics has changed by mind on how good an idea the grapple nerf is. That said, I feel that the general argument being made against any sort of monk nerf is "Us monks know that monks aren't overpowered. You obviously don't understand our class if you have problems with it. Instead, we should implement a number of fixes (as Malarious has informed me) that happen to also buff our class. We can't imagine why you might have a problem with this. You must be ignorant; can't you see that we will nerf ourselves in our own time?"

If the vocal monks would be more open with compromise with the non-monks, and stop snoobing every argument made by a non-monk, then perhaps you would see a less hostile reation to your suggestions.

So monks, if you had to suggest a nerf or nerfs to monk mechanics, not individual skills, (and you should, one will be on the final report; the other players voted on monks for that very reason) what would it be? Will this nerf be of approximately equal impact to the positive effects of any buffs and fixes that you suggest? Feel free to discuss changes that you would want to implement over envoys as well.

We very rarely suggest wholesale nerfs to mechanics, as that requires considering each guild independently for effect. Making grapples a set 3.2s for instance would make Ninjakari grapples slower but Tahtetso's faster. Making grapples not gain momentum hits Ninjakari harder than most and removes the tahtetso greenlock, but might do very little to a nekotai after low momentum.

Summarized version of what used to be here: What is your health? Your rank in Resilience? Who did you fight? Where is a log? You make alot of generalized claims without presenting any useful information to work with.

Much of your information is apples and oranges or is otherwise too subjective to make use of, for instance:
- Might is not important, skills are, trans dramatics and influence will not help you survive in the least.
- Level is of even less value, I killed demigods (as many others did) in my 80's.
- Your design (bard) is not made to be comparable to monks, where you are aimed for group and I for solo.
- Half your health needs more info, I know mages who can attack for half your health.
- Sensitivity should not work if you take precautions for expecting it.
- Our last "open to non monks" resulted in a catastrophe for grapples, which you yourself backed but now admit was a bad idea. Why should we need to earn your trust, we have a proven track record of change and improvement, so far non monks have given a record of pure nerfs that often ignore feedback from the people who have the skills.
- Just for a note, it is not even monks and non monks, it is, those who know and those who do not know. Your crash course as you call it likely went into very little overall detail. There is alot to understand.
- Me personally I am having trouble seeing these buffs you want to point out. As an aslaran I had no issues using grapple enders, the change only effects base race. Rest of it is mainly bugs (losing momentum without a target) or making changes to poorly envoyed ideas (losing momentum every target change to the point it becomes a grapple war).

As a closing, most minor changes tend to have big impacts even when the change is unrelated (see: hold breath and oothai).