Unknown2012-02-07 21:34:43
Ok. I concede that nerfing an entire mechanic will likely have unforeseen consquences. In that case, what targetted nerfs would you suggest in order to address the general perception of monks?
I don't keep logs and don't particularly feel like revealing my in-game persona in any case. My max health is a little under 6k with Platter and Blessing up, which is low, and leaves me rather vulnerable to monks, who can attack more often, and inhibit more alongside those attacks, than, say, geomancers, who inflict somewhat more damage but must sacrifice much of their afflicting and hindering in order to do so (I was a geomancer previous, so I know that geo balances are better spent doing things other than pointing staff). I have Transed Resilience, and decent (70/72) splendors, so that isn't the issue.
My big problem is that I must constantly be expending effort to hinder them (and giving up a chunk of my offense in the process) or simply be killed, since they are so powerful at high momentum. Further, if the monk manages to get started, be it through a lucky hit, a mistake on my part, or them punching their beast, I must then spend time hindering the monk back down to a less dangerous level, generally giving the monk time to cure all of my setup on them.
Ok. Another idea. How about you make it so that the monk can't beat on his beast/teammate up to avoid hindering up to momentum 5, then switch over to the enemy at momentum 3 (where they alreay are dangerous). I'm not sure how best to do this, but I feel that it certainly could help.
I don't keep logs and don't particularly feel like revealing my in-game persona in any case. My max health is a little under 6k with Platter and Blessing up, which is low, and leaves me rather vulnerable to monks, who can attack more often, and inhibit more alongside those attacks, than, say, geomancers, who inflict somewhat more damage but must sacrifice much of their afflicting and hindering in order to do so (I was a geomancer previous, so I know that geo balances are better spent doing things other than pointing staff). I have Transed Resilience, and decent (70/72) splendors, so that isn't the issue.
My big problem is that I must constantly be expending effort to hinder them (and giving up a chunk of my offense in the process) or simply be killed, since they are so powerful at high momentum. Further, if the monk manages to get started, be it through a lucky hit, a mistake on my part, or them punching their beast, I must then spend time hindering the monk back down to a less dangerous level, generally giving the monk time to cure all of my setup on them.
Ok. Another idea. How about you make it so that the monk can't beat on his beast/teammate up to avoid hindering up to momentum 5, then switch over to the enemy at momentum 3 (where they alreay are dangerous). I'm not sure how best to do this, but I feel that it certainly could help.
Unknown2012-02-07 21:35:57
Monk balance is like a planet-size ball of yarn infinitely tangled, and people are asking us to untangle it.
At this point, I'm convinced that there is no good solution that can be applied to monks generally due to the differences they have.
Monks should have been completely rewritten in the beginning. Look how much man-power has been wasted on trying to fix a problem without throwing away the old code. And no, the addition of momentum was a meta-level change that didn't filter down to the skill level except in the application of ka weights. More importantly, how much time can still be saved by doing a rewrite now?
My ideas work well for Ninjakari but as was ultimately pointed out, didn't work nearly as well for the other 3 guilds.
My suggestion for a nerf: entire rewrite of monks.
At this point, I'm convinced that there is no good solution that can be applied to monks generally due to the differences they have.
Monks should have been completely rewritten in the beginning. Look how much man-power has been wasted on trying to fix a problem without throwing away the old code. And no, the addition of momentum was a meta-level change that didn't filter down to the skill level except in the application of ka weights. More importantly, how much time can still be saved by doing a rewrite now?
My ideas work well for Ninjakari but as was ultimately pointed out, didn't work nearly as well for the other 3 guilds.
My suggestion for a nerf: entire rewrite of monks.
Enyalida2012-02-07 21:37:40
Ahem, that's kind of where I'm leaning on Druids also, at that last comment. I also don't think there will be any rewrites until after the new guilds come out. So: patches!
Unknown2012-02-07 21:40:04
Enyalida:
Ahem, that's kind of where I'm leaning on Druids also, at that last comment. I also don't think there will be any rewrites until after the new guilds come out. So: patches!
Let's spend $120 million dollars to not lose $6 million! (<--- Real life example. Government did it, yay. I don't remember the specifics though.)
Unknown2012-02-07 21:44:13
As an additional note:
I have offered multiple times to help rewrite monks, including coding it all. I've been turned down each time.
I have offered multiple times to help rewrite monks, including coding it all. I've been turned down each time.
Unknown2012-02-07 21:57:48
foolofsound:
Ok. I concede that nerfing an entire mechanic will likely have unforeseen consquences. In that case, what targetted nerfs would you suggest in order to address the general perception of monks?
I don't keep logs and don't particularly feel like revealing my in-game persona in any case. My max health is a little under 6k with Platter and Blessing up, which is low, and leaves me rather vulnerable to monks, who can attack more often, and inhibit more alongside those attacks, than, say, geomancers, who inflict somewhat more damage but must sacrifice much of their afflicting and hindering in order to do so (I was a geomancer previous, so I know that geo balances are better spent doing things other than pointing staff). I have Transed Resilience, and decent (70/72) splendors, so that isn't the issue.
My big problem is that I must constantly be expending effort to hinder them (and giving up a chunk of my offense in the process) or simply be killed, since they are so powerful at high momentum. Further, if the monk manages to get started, be it through a lucky hit, a mistake on my part, or them punching their beast, I must then spend time hindering the monk back down to a less dangerous level, generally giving the monk time to cure all of my setup on them.
Ok. Another idea. How about you make it so that the monk can't beat on his beast/teammate up to avoid hindering up to momentum 5, then switch over to the enemy at momentum 3 (where they alreay are dangerous). I'm not sure how best to do this, but I feel that it certainly could help.
Isn't sacrificing offense to hinder your opponent's offence the entire point of a 1v1? If not, it becomes a race to the finish, and in that case, certain matchups will always have a clear winner.
Having to hinder your opponent to slow them down is in all combat. You do the exact same thing when facing tk (vessels) or a warrior (wounds). If it goes unignored, you'll lose unless they ignore your offense and you're class is faster in the matchup.
The sensitivity is 30% more damage. If you weren't curing it right, then you ought to go do more fighting to see how much of a difference it makes. It would be a big one if you're not having sensitivity on you all the time. You'll actually see more than a 30% improvement too; the 30% from sensitivity feeds into how many wounds you get, which feeds into the total damage. No sensitivity means 30% less damage immediately in addition to however much less damage from not having those wounds on you.
Mages can shut down a monk with one skill. The point-staff doesn't work except in groups, and mages aren't a damage class.
In an ideally balanced world, no two classes should ever win against each other (or, there should be a rock-paper-scissors relationship among the archetypes). The winners in these matchups are the ones that didn't make the worst mistakes.
There isn't an elegant solution to the prebuilding momentum problem that's codeable. You can make it so that a monk loses all momentum when switching from a mob to a player, but that doesn't prevent the punches to an ally.
Neos2012-02-07 21:58:25
foolofsound:
I don't keep logs
must sacrifice much of their afflicting and hindering in order to do so (I was a geomancer previous, so I know that geo balances are better spent doing things other than pointing staff).
Why does barely anyone keep logs?! I logged every fight I took part in practically since I started fighting, with only a few not logged due to either crashes, forgetting before closing mudlet, or other comp problems.
Geo TKs really don't have to sacrifice any hindering/afflicting to do some serious damage, though probably not half a persons health, though I might be mistaken on the numbers.
Unknown2012-02-07 22:13:46
Isn't sacrificing offense to hinder your opponent's offence the entire point of a 1v1? If not, it becomes a race to the finish, and in that case, certain matchups will always have a clear winner.
Having to hinder your opponent to slow them down is in all combat. You do the exact same thing when facing tk (vessels) or a warrior (wounds). If it goes unignored, you'll lose unless they ignore your offense and you're class is faster in the matchup.
Of course it is, but generally my song effects (Slowed writhing+multi-entangle, plauge affs, hunger, mental affs, and forced absinthe or palemalt sipping) with the occasional tarot (another entangle or aeon) are enough to make sure that my opponent is sufficiently hindered to keep them from killing me while I set up my offense. Against monks I have to expend nearly every balance hindering, instead of half or less like with other classes; though now that I think about it that may be because of acrobatics contort....
My performance against monks certainly went up when I started DarkMastering them into getting drunk, instead of trying to land TaintedLove, but it still just isn't enough hindering to allow me to maintain a decent offense.
Unknown2012-02-07 22:25:01
foolofsound:
Of course it is, but generally my song effects (Slowed writhing+multi-entangle, plauge affs, hunger, mental affs, and forced absinthe or palemalt sipping) with the occasional tarot (another entangle or aeon) are enough to make sure that my opponent is sufficiently hindered to keep them from killing me while I set up my offense. Against monks I have to expend nearly every balance hindering, instead of half or less like with other classes; though now that I think about it that may be because of acrobatics contort....
My performance against monks certainly went up when I started DarkMastering them into getting drunk, instead of trying to land TaintedLove, but it still just isn't enough hindering to allow me to maintain a decent offense.
As a monk, I have to sacrifice half of my offense against anyone that has faster writhe times (contort, spider tattoo or w/e, and probably shamans). Monks just don't do well at all against certain archetypes, especially bards and mages. Could it be the case that the same is true for bards in relation to monks? That bards just aren't meant to win against monks?
EDIT: As a bard, you also have contort. That's half of a Ninja's offense right there.
Malarious2012-02-07 23:11:47
foolofsound:
Of course it is, but generally my song effects (Slowed writhing+multi-entangle, plauge affs, hunger, mental affs, and forced absinthe or palemalt sipping) with the occasional tarot (another entangle or aeon) are enough to make sure that my opponent is sufficiently hindered to keep them from killing me while I set up my offense. Against monks I have to expend nearly every balance hindering, instead of half or less like with other classes; though now that I think about it that may be because of acrobatics contort....
You have a survival problem, it has nothing to do with monks it sounds. People survive monks pounding on them for long periods of time, if a lower standing monk is wiping you out then thats a problem independant of monks.
foolofsound:
My performance against monks certainly went up when I started DarkMastering them into getting drunk, instead of trying to land TaintedLove, but it still just isn't enough hindering to allow me to maintain a decent offense.
This shows you probably do not know how to actually fight a monk, you should spend more time in the arena practicing. Haha force drunk.
foolofsound:
TK is statistically 100% to kill you, mathematically, without hindering your vessel curing at all. I still am unsure why people cry monk with so many more powerful guilds. When is the last time TK put in a nerf to themselves? I know of at least 3 monk nerfs. Heh.
Enyalida2012-02-07 23:25:13
I on the other hand do know how to fight monks (challenge?), and will have to say that I agree. I don't have to spend nearly as much time with any other class throwing away all of my own priorities to spam hindering. I've also played monk (though not extensively), and reveled in the fact that fighting anyone of my tier (lower-middle), even if they had an upper tier system, I could sit on a single alias that I had coded to check momentum level and make the appropriate attack. It was pretty easy to just have a planned action at each stage, and going with it, autokill essentially any target put in front of you. I haven't really experienced that playing any other class. It may be somewhat like that for Illuminati with lawlents, but everyone seems to agree that Illums are still hilarious. I understand​ it doesn't work quite like that at upper tier, but the principle stands.
The current grapple suggestion is borne out of an attempt to mitigate the buff you planned to give yourself with grapple changes. That's really the only wide-spectrum monk change that seems to have everyone up in arms, so just scrap the entire thing, including the buff. It sucks that you can't grapple effectively as certain races, but you aren't intended to be certain races. That sucks, and probably isn't really a fair attitude, but if you can't handle some sort of compromise on an issue that both you and other people have brought up, that may be what has to happen (or what happened already will continue, where you start getting ignored).
((Yes, TK is silly. I've got one of the only real ways in the game of hindering psionics (Gogo sleep attrition and vines), and it makes people like Munsia cry hax and moan because they can't smash their alias and expect to win. It always always makes me snigger to read back and see all the "but druids are autocombat!!1!" posts made back in the day, when TK's can run around with a single alias to hold down.))
The current grapple suggestion is borne out of an attempt to mitigate the buff you planned to give yourself with grapple changes. That's really the only wide-spectrum monk change that seems to have everyone up in arms, so just scrap the entire thing, including the buff. It sucks that you can't grapple effectively as certain races, but you aren't intended to be certain races. That sucks, and probably isn't really a fair attitude, but if you can't handle some sort of compromise on an issue that both you and other people have brought up, that may be what has to happen (or what happened already will continue, where you start getting ignored).
((Yes, TK is silly. I've got one of the only real ways in the game of hindering psionics (Gogo sleep attrition and vines), and it makes people like Munsia cry hax and moan because they can't smash their alias and expect to win. It always always makes me snigger to read back and see all the "but druids are autocombat!!1!" posts made back in the day, when TK's can run around with a single alias to hold down.))
Unknown2012-02-07 23:42:51
Malarious:
You have a survival problem, it has nothing to do with monks it sounds. People survive monks pounding on them for long periods of time, if a lower standing monk is wiping you out then thats a problem independant of monks.
I'm not sure how you pulled that from what I said, at all. I have a significantly harder time fighting monks, particularly acrobatics monks, than anything except Illuminati, though I accept that may be because my hindering relies so heavily on entangle.
This shows you probably do not know how to actually fight a monk, you should spend more time in the arena practicing. Haha force drunk.
How so? It has worked wonders against a number of people that I would otherwise have a hard time killing; anybody who doesn't have a trigger to inrift both absinth and palemalt.
TK is statistically 100% to kill you, mathematically, without hindering your vessel curing at all. I still am unsure why people cry monk with so many more powerful guilds. When is the last time TK put in a nerf to themselves? I know of at least 3 monk nerfs. Heh.
I absoulely agree that monks aren't the most overpowered thing in Lusternia. That doesn't mean that we should allow them to continue to be overpowered. We should attempt to fix everything, and shame on the TK-using Mage envoys for not doing something about it.
Malarious2012-02-08 00:03:12
Everytime there is speaking I see someone making an outright false statement, very confusing.
======= ENYA =======
That change actually makes me grapple slower, as it stands I can already grapple just fine, and ender just fine too. Your information is as wrong as everyone else trying to make this claim. I am taking a slower offense in an attempt to assist those who are not aslaran, because as I have also said, the problem with grapples is a BUG from SIOR that he corrected wrongly. Sahmiam was in fact the person he tested with to create the base line, Sahmiam was in fact aslaran so as a result grapples balanced to aslaran. The proposal slowed down some monks and sped up others to regulate grapples and make them more controlled. It was pure stupid bias that a sudden need for grapples to not gain momentum was born, which as of yet has not seen readily apparant facts to back it, but has on several occassions been shown to be a bad idea.
I wonder how long ago you tried monk, because short of very very bad opponents there is no "win strategy", but I suppose I could always just say most guilds would have an even easier time of it at that level anyway.
tl;dr
+ The standardization of grapples both slows ME down, and also fixes a BUG from Sior.
=ss====== Fool =======
Ah Fool, as a note, I like to shorten names, while fool is usually an insult, I really am just shortening your name (it is not meant to be flaming). When I said you have a survival issue I was looking at your scenario which basically says you have to put in huge amounts of time as a guild with passive balance loss afflictions to hinder a monk. As cacophony my songs passively kept people under control with few exceptions, who I simply adjusted here and there to work around. Queenslament is a BAD idea against acrobatics though yes.
A wise combatant once said: "At the peak of attrition we find the valley of skill. When your high point lacks skill, your low point is inability." If you are having to reduce yourself to forced attrition, and attrition some of us actually can shrug, then you do not really know how to fight them. To a similar extent I tell people to learn warrior as a human first, sure you can be a polarity buffed faeling but the basics is where you need to start. Begin from the low point and make that work, then when you stack the deck in your favor you have a great lead to work with. You would be better off with a scroll of disruption than queenslament, although based on your strength shieldstun may be better still.
Overpowered means above what is warranted. Can you tell me what is warranted from a monks offense given the rules it must be an affliction class and has to base itself on warriors without much wounds? The issue that will likely arise is regeneration affs which vary by guild, including balanced changes to them. No one thing can be changed outright without a measure of impact so we have to go guild by guild. Unlike many of the "higher power" options out there we have actively regulated and balanced ourselves over time. We make sure not to rush anything until it is covered so we do not have to re-envoy it later.
tl;dr
+ When you have hit the point of using alcohol/attrition you probably have not exhausted your proper options.
+ Monks are actually pretty much on the ball for the design, we have removed most of the major problems. We would make minor changes for the most part from this point except when the design is compromised. (Nekotai are doing this)
+ There has been steady change from the monks for the better for some time, what "OP" guilds can cite that?
Unfortunately I forgot the point of thought for others, I will ask Janalon
======= ENYA =======
The current grapple suggestion is borne out of an attempt to mitigate the buff you planned to give yourself with grapple changes.
That change actually makes me grapple slower, as it stands I can already grapple just fine, and ender just fine too. Your information is as wrong as everyone else trying to make this claim. I am taking a slower offense in an attempt to assist those who are not aslaran, because as I have also said, the problem with grapples is a BUG from SIOR that he corrected wrongly. Sahmiam was in fact the person he tested with to create the base line, Sahmiam was in fact aslaran so as a result grapples balanced to aslaran. The proposal slowed down some monks and sped up others to regulate grapples and make them more controlled. It was pure stupid bias that a sudden need for grapples to not gain momentum was born, which as of yet has not seen readily apparant facts to back it, but has on several occassions been shown to be a bad idea.
I wonder how long ago you tried monk, because short of very very bad opponents there is no "win strategy", but I suppose I could always just say most guilds would have an even easier time of it at that level anyway.
tl;dr
+ The standardization of grapples both slows ME down, and also fixes a BUG from Sior.
=ss====== Fool =======
Ah Fool, as a note, I like to shorten names, while fool is usually an insult, I really am just shortening your name (it is not meant to be flaming). When I said you have a survival issue I was looking at your scenario which basically says you have to put in huge amounts of time as a guild with passive balance loss afflictions to hinder a monk. As cacophony my songs passively kept people under control with few exceptions, who I simply adjusted here and there to work around. Queenslament is a BAD idea against acrobatics though yes.
A wise combatant once said: "At the peak of attrition we find the valley of skill. When your high point lacks skill, your low point is inability." If you are having to reduce yourself to forced attrition, and attrition some of us actually can shrug, then you do not really know how to fight them. To a similar extent I tell people to learn warrior as a human first, sure you can be a polarity buffed faeling but the basics is where you need to start. Begin from the low point and make that work, then when you stack the deck in your favor you have a great lead to work with. You would be better off with a scroll of disruption than queenslament, although based on your strength shieldstun may be better still.
Overpowered means above what is warranted. Can you tell me what is warranted from a monks offense given the rules it must be an affliction class and has to base itself on warriors without much wounds? The issue that will likely arise is regeneration affs which vary by guild, including balanced changes to them. No one thing can be changed outright without a measure of impact so we have to go guild by guild. Unlike many of the "higher power" options out there we have actively regulated and balanced ourselves over time. We make sure not to rush anything until it is covered so we do not have to re-envoy it later.
tl;dr
+ When you have hit the point of using alcohol/attrition you probably have not exhausted your proper options.
+ Monks are actually pretty much on the ball for the design, we have removed most of the major problems. We would make minor changes for the most part from this point except when the design is compromised. (Nekotai are doing this)
+ There has been steady change from the monks for the better for some time, what "OP" guilds can cite that?
Unfortunately I forgot the point of thought for others, I will ask Janalon
Neos2012-02-08 00:27:52
Malarious:
+ There has been steady change from the monks for the better for some time, what "OP" guilds can cite that?
I added a cure line to vessels. I should get karma points for that.
Unknown2012-02-08 00:31:28
Enyalida:
I on the other hand do know how to fight monks (challenge?), and will have to say that I agree. I don't have to spend nearly as much time with any other class throwing away all of my own priorities to spam hindering. I've also played monk (though not extensively), and reveled in the fact that fighting anyone of my tier (lower-middle), even if they had an upper tier system, I could sit on a single alias that I had coded to check momentum level and make the appropriate attack. It was pretty easy to just have a planned action at each stage, and going with it, autokill essentially any target put in front of you. I haven't really experienced that playing any other class. It may be somewhat like that for Illuminati with lawlents, but everyone seems to agree that Illums are still hilarious. I understand​ it doesn't work quite like that at upper tier, but the principle stands.
The current grapple suggestion is borne out of an attempt to mitigate the buff you planned to give yourself with grapple changes. That's really the only wide-spectrum monk change that seems to have everyone up in arms, so just scrap the entire thing, including the buff. It sucks that you can't grapple effectively as certain races, but you aren't intended to be certain races. That sucks, and probably isn't really a fair attitude, but if you can't handle some sort of compromise on an issue that both you and other people have brought up, that may be what has to happen (or what happened already will continue, where you start getting ignored).
Must have been nice....
Back when I was fighting, I had...well, I don't know how many different aliases. The ones I can remember:
knc
kmr
kml
kla
kll
kng
kpn
kh
khd
kslit
kil
kir
kch
ksf
kh
ktoss
kma
kflat
kwp
Each one of those was scripted, modifiying forms on the fly, calling other aliases, checking momentum, etc. I never had a single alias that was win all be all, nor a strategy that always worked. In addition to the heavily coded aliases, I had a plugin to handle poisons, which the code for that was quite extensive too. If I ever return to fighting, I have an additional plugin on top of that.
The code required to be top tier, however, isn't indicative of anything related to balance. You can do just as much with any other class.
However, I can assure you that setting up a kill isn't as easy as 1, 2, 3. At least it isn't against competent opponents that know how to handle a monk.
When we asked for this report, we wanted it to make design changes that were fundamentally flawed to the class. That's not to say nerf the class, nor to buff it. Our options are limited on what we can do, and it's getting tighter because even the small changes can ruin an entire guild. As unreliable as the envoy process is, an envoy is stupid to attempt those changes less you destroy your guild's viability.
The only "buffs" out there are quality of life things: you have 2 racial options if you want to grapple effectively: aslaran and faeling. You have one race option if you want to grapple and not kill your offense: aslaran.
Monks have been nerfed quite a bit in the past year and a half. Do I have to point out the speed nerf? Before that, I had a balance time of ~2.3 seconds. Now it's closer to 3 depending on skills used, modifieres, etc. The out of form kicks? That was necessary, but it resulted in the very narrow options we have at low momentum.
I'd be happy if someone came up with a good solution that fixed the problems, but everything everyone has suggested either doesn't fix the problem or kills some monks viability in the process. There is no unifying design philosophy for the monk guilds.
When you say monks are overpowered, are you refering to all of them, or a specific guild? And I challenge the people that say all to tell me what makes Ninjakari so overpowered, and not some wave-hand answer like "too many afflictions." If you can answer that question, I'm willing to bet that the problem isn't shared with the rest of them. Maybe one to two guilds.
Unknown2012-02-08 02:18:34
Malarious:
I know mages who can attack for half your health
In one shot. :)
Unknown2012-02-08 07:52:58
Edenwe:
In one shot. :)
Only half? *envy*
Binjo2012-02-08 09:11:14
Lions and tigers, and bears! Oh my this thread has exploded.
Here is the one niche situation I've found for crunch. If I'm sparring someone who will run and cure frequently then I can go for crunch right before they would get freaked out and run out until they die. It's a spar instakill that takes many minutes to setup. Even against critical head wounds it takes 3-7 crunches which is 6-14 balances assuming no writhes.
This goes to my next point. Aslarans need to die. It's ridiculous that faeling/aslaran is viable for almost any archetype. Malarious seems to get grapple enders off as an aslaran without much effort, I have to pray for a lucky wound-dependent stun or spend momentum to stun or blackout someone to reliably perform an ender. Mala said that we would want aslarans to still be faster because otherwise people would be upset, well I'll be upset if they are faster personally. I think it should be the same balance for everyone, the only abusive thing I can think of from a slow race spamming is oothai with tae'dae but that's already been nerfed, and if a 19-20 str cap were placed on it they would be no better than aslarans spamming oothai.
Let's not and say we did. 90% of my kills are wound attrition and damage based not affs. Your suggestion would essentially turn me into grapple-spam support with some slitlocking. I dislike slitlocks and my slitlock is due to be nerfed soon as it is. This would make combat incredibly boring to me and I'd probably go warrior.
Steelgrip.
One idea that intrigues me would be to make grapples not able to gain momentum but allow a kick combined with the grapple to still gain momentum. This is obviously not very well supported by my fellow envoys but this would force us to juggle the costs of a kick (to gain momentum), steelgrip (to keep the grapple unstanceable), and speed (to get our ender off/hinder effectively). This would nerf early grappling without greatly impacting high momentum grappling. The concern when we're talking about grappling is what it'll do to the ninjakari. I use grapples heavily in my offense as a shofangi but that's my choice out of our large list of skills, ninjakari don't have as much of a choice.
It takes 80 seconds to regain 10 power at trans discipline if I recall. Serpent and gpent both last a minute so you cannot actually spam it indefinitely without bodyfuel. I think when I spoke to Shuyin about veil we were both under the impression that it lasted 5 minutes. We could either extend the skill and give it a 2 minute cooldown or give it a 1 minute cooldown with its current 3 minutes. Either way it should not be possible to use it as infinite harass as I've seen it used.
Edenwe:
Ask Wobou how a fellow Shofangi monk recently fought for 40 minutes with an opponent that was toting critical head wounds. And well... Malarious is right about how Crunch is lethal over time. It just takes half an hour of "faith in God" to pull it off.
Also 100% grapple enders don't bother me. We're an affliction class by design. We're not meant to be an offshoot of the warrior archetype. What bothers me is that you need to be an Aslaran to make Grappling viable. Give other races a fair chance? Yes? I hate the idea of telling novices that grappling isn't very reliable for their class if their current choice of race is anything other than Aslaran to pull off grapples 100%. We're not trying to buff grappling, we're making it fair for all races to use it.
Here is the one niche situation I've found for crunch. If I'm sparring someone who will run and cure frequently then I can go for crunch right before they would get freaked out and run out until they die. It's a spar instakill that takes many minutes to setup. Even against critical head wounds it takes 3-7 crunches which is 6-14 balances assuming no writhes.
This goes to my next point. Aslarans need to die. It's ridiculous that faeling/aslaran is viable for almost any archetype. Malarious seems to get grapple enders off as an aslaran without much effort, I have to pray for a lucky wound-dependent stun or spend momentum to stun or blackout someone to reliably perform an ender. Mala said that we would want aslarans to still be faster because otherwise people would be upset, well I'll be upset if they are faster personally. I think it should be the same balance for everyone, the only abusive thing I can think of from a slow race spamming is oothai with tae'dae but that's already been nerfed, and if a 19-20 str cap were placed on it they would be no better than aslarans spamming oothai.
foolofsound:
I rather like the idea of removing deepwounds from monks entirely, along with the nerf to their damage that would entail. IN conjunction with the listed buffs, monks become significantly affliction/lock based and lose their ability to do catastrophic damage as soon as they hit momentum five.
Let's not and say we did. 90% of my kills are wound attrition and damage based not affs. Your suggestion would essentially turn me into grapple-spam support with some slitlocking. I dislike slitlocks and my slitlock is due to be nerfed soon as it is. This would make combat incredibly boring to me and I'd probably go warrior.
Malarious:
Line removed. Impossible for monks to deal a dozen things you have to heal. Forms are balanced around ka, which requires all actions at once, that said all attacks check defenses such as parry/stance/rebounding, so they do not avoid anything in that regard, so its not an issue. Momentum system causes you to lose potency if you do anything heavily damaging, it seems to be working from our end.
Steelgrip.
Placeus:
This one bothers me a little. I'm fairly sure it will further encourage the "grapple to 4 or 5 mo then start kill forms" tactic rather than requiring monks to use weapon attacks which target limbs and are susceptable to failure based on parry, stance and rebounding.
One idea that intrigues me would be to make grapples not able to gain momentum but allow a kick combined with the grapple to still gain momentum. This is obviously not very well supported by my fellow envoys but this would force us to juggle the costs of a kick (to gain momentum), steelgrip (to keep the grapple unstanceable), and speed (to get our ender off/hinder effectively). This would nerf early grappling without greatly impacting high momentum grappling. The concern when we're talking about grappling is what it'll do to the ninjakari. I use grapples heavily in my offense as a shofangi but that's my choice out of our large list of skills, ninjakari don't have as much of a choice.
Janalon:
I assume the suggested cool down is to have some Stealth-skill nerf to parallel Harmony AND prevent endless Veil looping (at the cost of power attrition). This is somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison, but would you also suggest a 2 minute cool down to Low Magic Serpent or High Magic Great Pentagram? My reasoning being anyone can loop Serpent/GreatPentagram (both trans skills, though at a higher power cost). In my mind, this is not one of the "core" problems of monks, but was tacked on last minute so the report appeared to offer monk nerfs to balance out suggested buffs... but it doesn't really solve the "monk" problem.
It takes 80 seconds to regain 10 power at trans discipline if I recall. Serpent and gpent both last a minute so you cannot actually spam it indefinitely without bodyfuel. I think when I spoke to Shuyin about veil we were both under the impression that it lasted 5 minutes. We could either extend the skill and give it a 2 minute cooldown or give it a 1 minute cooldown with its current 3 minutes. Either way it should not be possible to use it as infinite harass as I've seen it used.
Malarious2012-02-08 22:10:41
Steel grip does not appear to answe to the quoted paragraph.
The reason Aslaran would still be faster is because that is the reason you take the race. To remove that bonus would be contradictory to the purpose you take it. Most of the time high speed races have lower strength while base races will see higher, so damage is lower for aslaran but speed is higher so the DPS should be about equal.
I am fine with the kick requirement, my concern was if it addressed the suddenly arrived upon "problem".
Veil at 3 minutes is too short for a cooldown, discussion said 5 minuts was better while still properly disabling spamming it.
Waiting to hear what Shuyin comes back with, its possible we may need to make different changes. At the same time I wanted to look at grapples target evaluated to envoy exceptions. If the concern is spamming grapples early then grapples that are like 350 ka+ wont fit in that category and could potentially get past it.
The reason Aslaran would still be faster is because that is the reason you take the race. To remove that bonus would be contradictory to the purpose you take it. Most of the time high speed races have lower strength while base races will see higher, so damage is lower for aslaran but speed is higher so the DPS should be about equal.
I am fine with the kick requirement, my concern was if it addressed the suddenly arrived upon "problem".
Veil at 3 minutes is too short for a cooldown, discussion said 5 minuts was better while still properly disabling spamming it.
Waiting to hear what Shuyin comes back with, its possible we may need to make different changes. At the same time I wanted to look at grapples target evaluated to envoy exceptions. If the concern is spamming grapples early then grapples that are like 350 ka+ wont fit in that category and could potentially get past it.
Unknown2012-02-08 22:23:39
Is Ninshi being excluded from the kick requirement? That would affect mo0 through mo3 grapples. Maybe even mo4, but I don't think we have enough modifiers to eat up all the ka to not kick there.
Edit: I thought steelgrip didn't bypass all of those.
Edit: I thought steelgrip didn't bypass all of those.
