As of mo2 ninshi would have speed and kick, it only stops starter mo from having speed. I do not think it would be exempted no.

That said I would like to examine high cost grapples for slightly lower costs with kicks. When I say high cost I mean the like 350+ ka skills that require mo2 to even see use much less have speed and such. Shouldnt need mo4 for some of the really weak grapples to gain mo but allow an ender.

I am still operating on the fact that grapples as a general rule do little and are seen as giving up your offense for the enders, which are also still usually mild. The most powerful ones are like bleeding or tendon (the tendon stops mo gain as well).

Malarious:

As of mo2 ninshi would have speed and kick, it only stops starter mo from having speed. I do not think it would be exempted no.

That said I would like to examine high cost grapples for slightly lower costs with kicks. When I say high cost I mean the like 350+ ka skills that require mo2 to even see use much less have speed and such. Shouldnt need mo4 for some of the really weak grapples to gain mo but allow an ender.

I am still operating on the fact that grapples as a general rule do little and are seen as giving up your offense for the enders, which are also still usually mild. The most powerful ones are like bleeding or tendon (the tendon stops mo gain as well).

Ninshi is fairly low Ka, so I don't think it needs to be exempted. Re-examining some grapple ka costs would certainly be fair if they lose the ability to build momentum.

While it is low ka, it's low ka for a reason. It needs to be modified by things like hard, ochai, speed. And without speed, how are we supposed to yank which is half the skill's functionality? You can't. So it's not useful at mo0 or mo1 because you'll never get to the ender. At mo2, you can't choose between a kick and modifying it outside of speed.

It's unfair that other guilds can modify their low mo options with hard AND speed at the same time and get 100% use of the skills. If I have to kick, I can't use speed an hard with the ninshi. If I can't use speed, I can't yank. If I can't yank, then I don't get an ender, the damage from yank, and the bleeding from barbs.

It's been established that Ninjakari rely quite heavily on ninshi, and with the set up now, it's stupid to not use speed when climbing the momentum ladder with one exception: kata hold.

Ka says we can ninshi at mo0 and kick. Viability would say not to after the change. At that point in time, I'll just use KA hold and kick, and not worry about parry/rebounding/stance and have near 100% chance of success at the sacrifice of 200 damage and some small amount of wounds. And a more reliable way of building momentum than ninishi, keeping the opponent in the room with me, etc.


Right now at mo0:

Ninshi + speed + hard: gives you wounds, damage, hindering during the length of grapple.
------ Yank + ninoaghi: damage, wounds, bleeding, and a 1s stun + prone. Still possible to get up and walk away before monk regains balance

OR

Hold + kick: grapple hinder, damage and wounds from kick, don't have to worry about parry and stance and rebounding.

You don't need the speed here, because you don't end it. You only reinitiate the hold AFTER they writhe out.


Wait...you can still hold and kick, which is the current strategy to build momentum and hinder via grapples. The nerf doesn't actually nerf the problem!

@Malarious: Ninshi is our offense. Even an unmodified yank is good. We give up quite a bit by not ninshing, actually. The majority of our damage from a fight comes from the ninshi and yank combo, not from the 1h skills. Some combos will deal a lot of damage yes (flat form), but that's pure damage, very little bleeding, and no option of enders.

@Everyone: The kick requirement won't fix the problem, in my opinion, only make monk mechanics harder to understand for new people, and hurts legitimate options for some guilds, especially Ninja's low momentum game.

I am well aware of what is involved in Ninjakari combat. Sort of been there done that.

The not being able to spam at low momentum was the original problem to be fixed, the inability to use speed at mo1 was the entire intent, if you want to gain mo you have to use a kick instead.

It's unfair that other guilds can modify their low mo options with hard AND speed at the same time and get 100% use of the skills.

Nekotai for one do not have a low ka grapple outside of the basic kata ones. The change was meant to effect everyone basically, and it would do so. I understand Ninshi's use but I do not think it would get exempted from the kick thing, Ninshi is actually one of the best grapples for what it does.

Will see what comes of Shuyins discussion and likely resolve thoughts on Monkish so we get ideas altogether.

Malarious. The point isn't that Nekotai do not have low kata grapples within their own skill set. The point is that they have don't rely on low kata grapples and that they have other options. They have other skills with which to build momentum up other than kata hold. This applies to the other two guilds as well with varying options of quality.

Ninjakari have: two forms of hindering at initial levels: ninshi or hold. Nothing else.
Tahtetso have double hemi, as a counter example.

You yourself know how well the ninshi to gut worked, and I ask you, what other effective means are there to build momentum? Lacerates are easily cured, and while they contribute to a bleeding offense, you can't keep a person in the room with that (and I think that ninshi-yank actually contributes more to a bleeding offense initially, anyway). The dhatogh will knock them down, but there's nothing that prevents them from immediately standing and then leaving (both instant actions).

I'm also not denying that Ninshi isn't one of the best grapples: but to that end, it's also unique in that an entire guild is basically designed around it.

Jakari The basic jakari chain attack.
Jakati Attack the defences that would keep your jakari out.
Boost Spend power for superior kata moves.
Ochai Cause bleeding with your jakari chain.
Ninchu Whirl your chain faster.
Gripping Grip your wielded items in a deathlock.
Ninshi Wrap your chain around others.
Dhatogh Knock down an opponent with an entangling chain.
Bhaddogho Smack the ears to spread confusion.
Ninoaghi Modify ninshi to toss people around.
Akogh A blinding kick to the face.
Barbs Shred flesh by attaching barbs to a chain.
Ninombhi Injure a body part.
Ninughi A chance to crack limbs.
Ninukhi Drag others to you with your jakari chains.
Ninaali Inducing muscle trembling weakness the body.
Illgathoru Tear the flesh when you release your jakari binds.
Ninini Wrap your jakari for defense or unarmed combat.
Ninthugi Do greater injuries to a body part.
Umubah A disorienting blow to the head or chest.
Jakarikoghu Wave your jakari chain at multiple targets.
Oolibah Numbing the nerves of the body slows one down.
Constrict Tighten your chain as you yank it off.
Ashlamkh Do the greatest injuries to a body part.
Byahkari Strike back only in self-defense.
Ughathalogg A blow to make vital organs fail.

Above: All boldface skills are dependent on ninshi. All italicized skills are either entirely useless or have exactly 1 use in a special case (I found a combo that required a 3-form setup to use bhaddogho effectively).

Barbs causes the yank to deal damage. This contributes directly to the Ninja's bleeding offensive line.

Ninoaghi: the only ender we can use at low momentum, prones and gives a 1s stun. A nice thing to throw in on higher momentum forms.

Illgathoru: Nice damage modifier, but a very mediocre skill. Penalized at -0mo and all the afflictions can be pre-cured prior to them hitting.

Constrict: High momentum, req mo5, -1mo loss. Ender that causes blackout and uncon as well as damage and bleeding. Very nice skill, and not affected by the kick requirement at all.


Problems with kick:
Ninshi: 75 ka
Speed: 100 ka
Kick: 100

Can't ninshi at mo0 or mo1 and use yank to get the benefit of barbs or yank, and can't use ninoaghi to delay an opponent fleeing. Result? Use hold. Always. As someone who still plays the guild and also remembers what the report set out to do, I don't want my 2 options limited down to 1. The problem with monks is that we clearly don't have options, and I fail to see how eliminating said options actually helps.

And let's call this change for what it really is: something to appease the masses. I don't think it actually targets the problem, at least not effectively, and it very much so hurts Ninjakari. I really don't want to end up using KATA HOLD to build momentum.

You know, all of this recent hot-topic debate does very little to advance the central "debate" surrounding monks. The special report is already submitted (so no use belly aching what should or should not have been placed in that document). Too late for that. I'll be very interested to see the actual feedback Shu receives from admin-- particularly regarding monks!

Even now, as I proposed and supported the grapple issue, I'm starting to have reservations about the effectiveness and "effect" of the report. Is the grapple issue the one core change that will make people feel, "Yeah, monks are totally fixed now. I'll remove that 'DELETE MONKS' banner from my forum sig," and overturn the widespread perspective about monks being more perfect warriors? Dunno. Time will tell.

Outside of that, here's what I've started to realize about how the grapple issue might not fix the core problem... it might actually complicate it. In my mind, a good envoy solution most directly (and simply) solves the problem with introducing the least amount of "undesirable" complications. The more we discuss grapple, the more certain issues are coming to light. Consider the following:

1. The very fact that we might need to exempt Ninjakari from the grapple/momentum "solution." SO the solution only gets 3/4ths implemented. There is something about the proposal not being applied directly across the board that doesn't make it seem like an effective fix.
   
2. This change disproportionately impacts monk guild viability. Shofangi also have a considerable amount of spec grapples and enders as well (though, not as reliant as Ninjakari upon these forms). At the very other end, Tahtetso don't have any spec grapples & enders. Not all guilds are equally impacted. Check out my chart here: http://pastebin.com/YQ2rGBTF
   
3. Oothai is an advanced kata choke. It was "balanced" or "nerfed" with the change to Discipline Hold Breath. We never raised an eye because it still help hinder & gain momentum despite not dealing afflictions or significant damage with a Hold Breath defense raised. Now it might not increase momentum. The skill isn't worth the ka when we would need to more heavily invest into our kicks.
   
4. Consider the impact on grapple enders that have momentum penalties (like Nekotai Oriama's -1). For example, a 3mo grapple > Oriama would send the monk back to 2mo approaching that third form. Whereas that monk had used "regular" momentum-loss-less attacks, they would be at 5mo. This "fix" neuters certain attacks- namely the use of grapple enders.
   
5. OK, so the lack of grapples forces monks to use other early momentum hindering (i.e. stun & prone) moves in their arsenal. Nekotai have "nothing" outside sliced afflictions until about 4mo. Sliced affs need to stick for the aff to proc. Stacking sliced afflictions strategy was neutered during monk speed nerf. Nekotai have no afflictions to apply 0mo - 3mo.
   

I'm especially curious what 0mo - 3mo momentum options the other monk guilds have available... especially to help hinder as they build momentum. Please don't take me as trying to bell ache. Just trying to raise reasonable questions that might have been raise if 11th hour ideas weren't proposed, and there was a more reasonable comment period.

Sojiro:

-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. Monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.

The more I think about this proposal, the more I feel the execution is inherently flawed. The whole "standardize grapple length and balance recovery" is a worthwhile goal. However, the line, "Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial" makes the suggestion sound like it was written by either an aslaran or a faeling.

Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.

Do not take weapon stats into account. Only racial balance. Well, what about RACIAL stats. You know-- illithoid and kephera? Basically this idea would ignore weapon stats and thereby ignoring native weapon bonuses. In other words, it stands to subvert ilithoid and kephera beneath aslaran and faeling. Not to mention the whole bit about ignoring artifact runes. I don't like the exception.

Either grapples should be completely standardized or nothing at all.

I think that either this report needs to be scrapped entirely or the quality of life changes implemented. In reality, it's unfair to call them buffs when they improve monk mechanics (not make it stronger) with the goal of allowing us to improve balance down the road in ways that are simply not possible.

The grapple nerf is a flop. Period. It's nothing more than a placebo and very much worse, because it actual hurts (not nerf or balance) the monk archetype. And it only makes achieving real balance that much harder.

I certainly didn't vote to have the class made worse to appease the masses, both in functionality and in being able to balance it.

Ninombhi + jakari with Dhatogh. Softlock.

That aside, we assume everyone would have crap for early. I mean you could use hold but if you had to use kick you wouldnt get an ender off anyway. This same thing would apply to ninshi, use ninshi but kick instead of speed. Yes that means you dont get ninoaghi but I think that was the intent of the change, removing grapple > ender > grapple > ender.

It hurts but I am not seeing this as being a "mild blow" to anyone. All grapples early will suck, flat out. Many grapples wont even be worth using. And many grapples will have to have their cost examined on the assumption they need kicks to be worth anything. (especially yo get the enders).

Rest of Janalons points is monkish discussion methinks.

Yes the grapple suggestion was written by an Aslaran, an aslaran with 120 speed nekai. If your weapon stats came into it then fully artied harmony monks would be rediculous still. Most grapples do not check weapon speed as it is though. I rather rob people of their runes or +stat skills than the 2 races with balance bonuss of the whole reason you went the race. That could be selfish sounding but there are more +stat things than +balance, so I went with ignoring weapon stats. Runed or unruned wont matter that way.

No one "voted" for the grapple change. The entirety of the monk group said no. The uninformed, opinionated, and subjective decided it looked like a great change. And that "report filter" that is Shuyin said it sounded like a winner.

We tried to give back something useful with full support from the monk guilds, and we got an "F U doing my own thing" back, people wonder why we have Monkish.

Janalon, your link is wrong. Tahtetso have at least one ender, unless that was changed.
Ninjakari has some mistakes too.


Ninombhi + jakari/dhatogh requires two poisons to hit to achieve a softlock, which you can still walk away from after standing. Run and then cleanse.

Giving everyone crap doesn't make me feel any better, and yes, I agree of what the intent of the change was: however, my point against it is that any nerf to all grapples will adversely affect Ninjakari the most.

I think weapon speed should matter too. This nerf is like telling any knight that half of its spec skills no longer gain benefit from the 2k credits they spent for their weapon. Changing race is far cheaper than changing weapons or guilds. And I think races should matter too, as you pointed out, nerfing that would invalidate the racial choice. Lobo or Krokani would immediately become the top picks then if there's not speed to worry about.

I was against these special reports in the first place. You can't possibly have an unbiased player balance the game, and while I have to admit that Shuyin did take more input than I thought he would, this report stands to testiment that he isn't reliable. Left field Ninukhi nerf, right field grapple change, both of which decided upon and enacted days before submission without getting any input from the people that actually play and understand the classes.

And honestly, I have no problem saying that is this report goes through as is, it'll be yet another example of failure in Lusternia.

That's pretty threatening, but I guess you can't satisfy everybody.

Malarious:

Steel grip does not appear to answe to the quoted paragraph. Part of the quoted block said that parry and stance stops our attacks, steel grip bypasses that. Maybe I misread it.

The reason Aslaran would still be faster is because that is the reason you take the race. To remove that bonus would be contradictory to the purpose you take it. Most of the time high speed races have lower strength while base races will see higher, so damage is lower for aslaran but speed is higher so the DPS should be about equal. For the reasons I said above I'm not going to weep too much for aslarans and faelings. Even if grapple was nerfed to one baseline for everyone they would still be able to afflict the quickest and build the best in terms of wounds. Also. my +2 str over you does not give me +15% damage over a comparably artiwhored aslaran. So over time they are the kings of damage too, I accept that part as I like my burst damage but I don't see the logic in excluding race when both from my view (the view of a monk that has to pray to get an ender off) and the view of those who think grapples are overpowered (because they are writhing for a much higher percentage of time and facing enders more frequently) it's aslaran's and faelings that are causing the problem.

I am fine with the kick requirement, my concern was if it addressed the suddenly arrived upon "problem".

Veil at 3 minutes is too short for a cooldown, discussion said 5 minuts was better while still properly disabling spamming it. 3 minutes is forever in PVP time, it should have some sort of cooldown either way you slice it.

Waiting to hear what Shuyin comes back with, its possible we may need to make different changes. At the same time I wanted to look at grapples target evaluated to envoy exceptions. If the concern is spamming grapples early then grapples that are like 350 ka+ wont fit in that category and could potentially get past it.

As a note about the ninjakari, if the popular conclusion is that we should exempt any skill from this grapple nerf then the nerf shouldn't be applied at all. If ninshi is the one grapple that can still gain momentum then they will be the kings of early hindering relative to the rest of the guilds which isn't so horrible doesn't solve the problem. (And selfishly still wrecks how my offense currently functions 80% of the time.)

Janalon, your link is wrong. Tahtetso have at least one ender, unless that was changed.
Ninjakari has some mistakes too.


Ninombhi + jakari/dhatogh requires two poisons to hit to achieve a softlock, which you can still walk away from after standing. Run and then cleanse.

Giving everyone crap doesn't make me feel any better, and yes, I agree of what the intent of the change was: however, my point against it is that any nerf to all grapples will adversely affect Ninjakari the most.

I think weapon speed should matter too. This nerf is like telling any knight that half of its spec skills no longer gain benefit from the 2k credits they spent for their weapon. Changing race is far cheaper than changing weapons or guilds. And I think races should matter too, as you pointed out, nerfing that would invalidate the racial choice. Lobo or Krokani would immediately become the top picks then if there's not speed to worry about.

I was against these special reports in the first place. You can't possibly have an unbiased player balance the game, and while I have to admit that Shuyin did take more input than I thought he would, this report stands to testiment that he isn't reliable. Left field Ninukhi nerf, right field grapple change, both of which decided upon and enacted days before submission without getting any input from the people that actually play and understand the classes.

And honestly, I have no problem saying that is this report goes through as is, it'll be yet another example of failure in Lusternia.


I don't think many of us monks support this idea either (whole-heartedly at least). Particularly the grapple one. It hurts way too many guilds, and as Janalon mentioned - races (Kephera and Illithoids) as well. I hope the Admins shoot it down with a firm, "Lol no. Too much headache."

...
I was against these special reports in the first place. You can't possibly have an unbiased player balance the game, ...
...


I'm curious, do you see a fix to Monk problems coming from admins, short of redesigning the archetype?

Heya Sahm, your right about Taht having a grapple ender. Here's the information:

Malarious:

Yes the grapple suggestion was written by an Aslaran, an aslaran with 120 speed nekai. If your weapon stats came into it then fully artied harmony monks would be rediculous still. Most grapples do not check weapon speed as it is though. I rather rob people of their runes or +stat skills than the 2 races with balance bonuss of the whole reason you went the race. That could be selfish sounding but there are more +stat things than +balance, so I went with ignoring weapon stats. Runed or unruned wont matter that way.

Let me get this straight. You would rather rob people of hundreds (if not thousands) of credits and "the whole reason you went..." ilithoid or kephera? Even by your logic the argument doesn't stand. Not to mention... can you quantify how much weapon speed impacts grapple forms to support the argument that weapon speed is a more impacting factor in grapple > enders than racial balance?

Enyalida:

I'm curious, do you see a fix to Monk problems coming from admins, short of redesigning the archetype?

Heh. To bring things full circle... now I'm wondering if bringing the conversation back to momentum structure is warranted. Yeah, introducing one or two more tiers of momentum level would certainly be more evenly applied than any of our previous conversations on grapple + momentum. But hey. I don't want to discuss that just yet. Let's see what Shu has to share back after that admin meeting.

Vadi:

That's pretty threatening, but I guess you can't satisfy everybody.

Nope. You certainly can't.

Enyalida:


I'm curious, do you see a fix to Monk problems coming from admins, short of redesigning the archetype?

I think that the best way to fix monks would be to rebuild them from the ground up. Also, much of what the admins know about how monks work has been told to them by us.

The other option would be to increase the momentum levels (I wrote a detailed post earlier in the thread on my proposal for this) and after that, go in and adjust ka costs, momentum penalties, and even afflictions for every skill. My solution would work well for Ninjakari, for example, who'd need little adjustment compared to the other guilds.

Well, I believe in the special report. I believe in the envoy process. I believe in Lusternia. However, the report was mishandled from day one. There was an outright lack of moderation from the very get go. People started brainstorming for new solutions in the 11th hour. Literally. Three months into the process and with probably that many days until the report's submission a whole new round of ideas were generated... and never properly vetted through a proper comments process.

Again, I do believe in the envoy process and will be interested in seeing how the admin respond to the report on whole, and the monk section in particular. The beauty of the special report is the various filters to participate in the grand conversation and refine proposals through mass sourcing > elected representation > administrative review > and repeat. Here's to hoping the thinking (and not belly aching) we are producing will lead to a better second round.

I can't remember the voting totals for Shuyin, but unless he won by 50% + 1, by Parliamentary Law, another election should have been held between him and the second place person. I'm not faulting Shuyin either way on this, though, because he's not the one in charge of elections, and I'm very pleased that there was two rounds held.

I lost faith in the envoys when three things happened: 1) When I came to the administration with ideas on how to improve it and was told, "If you don't like it, quit." To Estarra's credit, she has since apologized for it and been forgiven. 2) How very few envoys either restrict themselves from commenting on things they don't understand or refuse to investigate. I had people comment on my reports, their comments very wrong on the mechanics, and even after I went to them asking them to actually do their homework, they did nothing. The report was rejected, and part of the contribution to it was the misinformed post from the envoy that didn't actually care. 3) Uniquesness and flavor of a skill is justification for it to remain unbalanced: I don't know how many times those arguements were made and accepted by the administration, but they were. And no, this is not an underhanded choke comment.

The problem with the special report, at least with this aspect of it, is that the experts are at the bottom of the input pole and anything we say will get filtered by uninformed individuals, even if they manage to be unbiased. Our input is filtered through Shuyin, who admitted he didn't know monk mechanics (and allowed himself to be influence by others that also don't understand it) and then through the administration. I haven't worked with Iosai at all, and there has been some very nice changes to the envoy process, but I still suspect that there's a disconnect between the players and the administration in how the game is played. Envoys are their eyes and ears, after all.

A quick note for it while I do some others things:

- More than just artys increase stats, race can to. Top tier problems are that you can have very high stats if you factor in not only runes but I believe harmony has the only monk +stats skill. So you are basically asking for harmony to always be faster.

However my earlier testing showed me something I wanted to look into.

That skill? Useless. You need three not very useful mantra chants for that +stat. Plus it spreads regeneration too thin, (Body, Mind, Heart). Very few scenarios to use it because you sacrifice defense and utility for a few extra stats to yer weapons that don't make much of a difference in speed (Like... .12 - .23 secs). I'd use it during group fights when no one is paying attention to me, but that's pretty much it. There are way better mantras to keep up in fights (Like lumphet, angphet, and krakphet for faster sip, +10 defense against cutting/blunt, and +10 physical damage buff). At least for my psymet monk. But yea, you'll never see a sane and practical harmony monk use that +stat chant and sacrifice regen, defense, and utility for just a teensy bit of offense in a real fight.

Edit: *P.S. to those who think that weapon stats means the same thing to us Monks as to Warriors. Nope! Weapon stats means even less to us. We just want the speed stat... but it needs to be in huge huge huge chunks of 10's to see any noticeable difference. Like... in the 260+ weapon speed range. Yer gonna need some level 2/level 3 weapon arties achieve Outlier status.*

Monk special report: saving the best for last! Getting very anxious now...