As a Ninja I used the lunge mod fairly often, best way to grapple places early and reliably. I also had optional lunge modded greenlocks to try to stack up more wounds for poisons. The insta was mainly useful in groups, solo it was less useful, but in groups it could be a bear.

Tahtetso love their insta, but its not nearly as easy as it use to be and you can stop them from pulling it with active effort. Tahtetso have the most WOUND checking skills of any monk, and I think you forgot to mention that Janalon. Some actions in various guilds Check wound levels, which is one thing I plan to introduce a tiny bit more of to offset low costs.

Nekotai use alot of power. I do not even bother with our lunge mod, the most efficient and productive way to progress is grapples and amihai in my opinion, none of which cares about rebounding. I need the power for greenlock attempts I do not see a reason to do anything but grapple as a nekotai at this time.

Shofangi are still the most problematic to me. They have the least controls on their stuff but at the same time have the least stuff. Most guilds get an action that can hit 4 areas (head, gut, chest, limbs) but shofangi get individual skills for each, they have 4+ grapples and similar numbers of enders. This leads to encouraging grapples and thats a general no no. I intend to add a skill or two and try to condense grapples so they do not occupy as much room. Main issue with shofangi is the no power greenlock, which is very possible once you get cracks going as the cracks stop stance or parry based on where they are. And of course they help interrupt green escaping.

I dont know that I will be done before I head out. Trying to be thorough and only need 1 set of changes. However if it is felt that we need more mo levels (I insist that there never be a -3 skill if it isnt like an amputate or somethin) then we can combine my changes with the selected momentum adjustments. As I said my report focuses on skills, so the changes could be moved anywhere.

Malarious:

Tahtetso have the most WOUND checking skills of any monk, and I think you forgot to mention that Janalon. Some actions in various guilds Check wound levels, which is one thing I plan to introduce a tiny bit more of to offset low costs.

Actually there are tons of examples where a prerequisite is required to give an afflictions. As you mentioned wounds. Or poison transfer for Nekcree mod. Some skills require prone. Others require broken bones.

I intentionally omitted (and not overlooked) prerequisite conditions because they are so guild specific and therefore don't align to my vision of global monk changes AND also because they have very little to do with the momentum system which is at the core of my proposal.

Janalon:


Actually there are tons of examples where a prerequisite is required to give an afflictions. As you mentioned wounds. Or poison transfer for Nekcree mod. Some skills require prone. Others require broken bones.

I intentionally omitted (and not overlooked) prerequisite conditions because they are so guild specific and therefore don't align to my vision of global monk changes AND also because they have very little to do with the momentum system which is at the core of my proposal.

Just a note, most if not all monk guilds have spec skills that require wounds. And of course... kata itself sets the precedent. But keep up with your report!

Malarious:


Just a note, most if not all monk guilds have spec skills that require wounds. And of course... kata itself sets the precedent. But keep up with your report!

Unless I am mistaken, I cannot name one Nekotai skill that requires wounds. Not all monks have equal wound requirements. Actually, if you look more carefully, wound req's are more closely associated with the 2-handed, blunt kata weapon guild of Ninjakari and Tahtetso.

I believe Ninjakari have more wound req's then any other guild (so I can see why you might gravitate to this as a familiar answer); Tahtetso has 50 ka Smash/Bash (weapon only) which stacks atop Soft/Hard and 3 power lunge mods.

I won't lie, my eyes glaze over a bit when reading the paragraph posts about monks! :P

Please avoid addressing a ton of specific skills if you can help it, perhaps skills related to the "main" theme of x monk class, like the tahtetso instakill, and so on.

I'll be editing in the proposed ideas soon.

Sojiro:

I won't lie, my eyes glaze over a bit when reading the paragraph posts about monks! :P

Please avoid addressing a ton of specific skills if you can help it, perhaps skills related to the "main" theme of x monk class, like the tahtetso instakill, and so on.

I'll be editing in the proposed ideas soon.

For the tl;dr, adjust momentum scale and ka weighting:

Janalon:

0>1mo 250 ka
1>2mo 250 ka
2>3mo 250 ka
3>4mo 500 ka
4>5mo 500 ka
5>6mo 750 ka
6>7mo 750 ka
7>8mo 1000 ka
8>9mo +1500 ka (needs boost)

Currently ignore adjusting action/mod ka costs; cover that through envoy process. Adjust action/mod penalties to move a 5mo system over to 7mo. Give particular attention towards more precisely tuning skills to address the OP/UP divide.

In case it was missed, I stated in the other thread that my preferred solution would be to add power costs to the more debilitating afflictions to counter the rapid rate of regen cure/greenlock afflicting that is currently there. I'm still wary of adjusting momentum scale/ka costs by themselves as a solution, since grapple spam could still be used to get to the high end momentum levels and inherent problem is still there.

As was mentioned, there is a heavy power cost for Nekotai greenlock, and the low bar for Shofangi greenlock is problematic (and should be envoyed). Adjusting skale/ka cost in itself was never meant to be the sole solution; the report seeks to more precisely balance OP/UP through refined penalty costs under a 7mo system. I already mentioned power cost for regen affs under my current solution. Under any proposal, grapple spam will still be available to get from low through high end momentum. Though, opening up middle momentum will offer more diverse offensive options.

Janalon:

For the tl;dr, adjust momentum scale and ka weighting:

Currently ignore adjusting action/mod ka costs; cover that through envoy process. Adjust action/mod penalties to move a 5mo system over to 7mo. Give particular attention towards more precisely tuning skills to address the OP/UP divide.

I've edited your table in, for future monk related suggestions, please add something specific like her table and not vague ones.

Well....hold your horses, Sojiro! I've got my own ideas, and I'd like some concensus here before we start moving things to the original post.


Anyway, the changes that I have:

Momentum changes:
- Increase levels of momentum to 10 with boost “turning it up to 11.”o 0mo : 250o 1mo: 250o 2mo: 350o 3mo: 500o 4mo: 500o 5mo: 500o 6mo: 750o 7mo: 750o 8mo: 750o 9mo: 900o 10mo: 1000o 11mo: 1500


- The above list maintains the initial first three levels of momentum, which I’ll call the flimsy stages, and gives a 50ka buff to momentum 3. Then you have six levels of mid-range fighting and two levels top tier fighting, but with the catch that the 1000ka and 950ka forms won’t work except at the top level. (This does make a difference for Ninjakari, at the very least. If other guilds simply stack mods, then it’s less of a big deal. Also prevents a mo9 boost to insta range.)

Momentum penalty changes
- Momentum penalties remain the same as they are now
- However, for each additional momentum-penalized action/mod within a form, an additional 1mo is lost.o As per above, stacking two -1mo actions will result in a drop of 3 momentum. Stacking three -1mo will drop momentum by 4.


- Keep the changing of targets a loss of 2.

Kata changes
- Add a modifier that gives the effect of ‘kata speed’ to a form, but limits the form to denizens only.o Monk bashing has taken a lot of nerfs through the introduction of mob resistances, reduction in speed, penalties to changing the targets, etc., and can’t reach their full potential until mo2. Other archetypes have peak bashing potential from the onset and do not have to struggle to maintain it§ In essence, monks are punished for killing a creature too fast if they don’t make up for the momentum lost by a target change.§ Monks must have four forms for optimal bashing for different situations. This mod will reduce it to two, making bashing, at the very least, simpler for novices. Additionally, some of us do use all 75 allotted slots.o Alternatively, make it so that attacking a denizen does not lower momentum if the previous target was also a denizen.


- Change boost to function so that it “jumps” to the next ka-increasing level. Otherwise, same as it currently is. The purpose of this change is to preserve the intent of the skill to add additional ka to the form.o 0mo -1mo -> 2moo 2mo -> 3moo 3mo -5mo -> 6moo 6mo - 8mo -> 9moo 9mo -> 10moo 10mo -> 11mo



Syntax Changes
- To eliminate much of the redundancy, change the lunge skills (jakati, etc.) to work like boost’s syntaxo Let’s make it the ~.o Thus, a form by the name of ‘attack’ will perform jakati if the user adds the ~ in front of it when using the KATA PERFORM syntax.§ Normal: attack§ Lunge: ~attack§ Boost: +attack§ Double boost: ++attack§ Boost with Lunge: ~+attack§ Boost with Lunge: +~attack

Not really commenting on the ideas themselves, but I would advise against using the tilde for commands, since it is the default escape character for the Z/Cmud command lines. Perhaps - or ^ or something.

Ytran:

Not really commenting on the ideas themselves, but I would advise against using the tilde for commands, since it is the default escape character for the Z/Cmud command lines. Perhaps - or ^ or something.

Whatever works. ^ would be fine.

Too many levels of momentum.

People are treating momentum as the issue but that is not my goal in this, I am the skill guy.

I will have some mechanics changed in my report (which will likely be after work) as well.

We can either start 5 capping, where skills get minimum mo reqs (aka all skills can always be used once they hit their mo, which can be a problem) or we can adjust skills and decide the best number of mo levels. While more seems appealing I warn of trying to add a bunch as all that tends to do is add boredom.

I also disagree with "leaving it to the envoys" this system assumes the envoys will agree to change something, generally depends on multiple changes quickly (envoys are never fast), and implies that the admin will actually approve all changes. Primary problems need to be addressed now, but anyhing beyond "oh crap" level changes will generally be minor like adding minor ka. We will see though, I am still working on it, not only to create the evaluation but then to compare for whats the best series.

Use a * it just seems nicer. *gank :D

Malarious:

Too many levels of momentum.

People are treating momentum as the issue but that is not my goal in this, I am the skill guy.

I will have some mechanics changed in my report (which will likely be after work) as well.

We can either start 5 capping, where skills get minimum mo reqs (aka all skills can always be used once they hit their mo, which can be a problem) or we can adjust skills and decide the best number of mo levels. While more seems appealing I warn of trying to add a bunch as all that tends to do is add boredom.

I also disagree with "leaving it to the envoys" this system assumes the envoys will agree to change something, generally depends on multiple changes quickly (envoys are never fast), and implies that the admin will actually approve all changes. Primary problems need to be addressed now, but anyhing beyond "oh crap" level changes will generally be minor like adding minor ka. We will see though, I am still working on it, not only to create the evaluation but then to compare for whats the best series.

Use a * it just seems nicer. *gank :D

I was the first one to say that changing momentum would not fix everything, and the way I have it set up makes mid-momentum fighting the standard. I want the skills to be changed too, so no, momentum is not the only issue. "Too many levels of momentum." is a blanket statement. Why is it? I think it's enough. 10 is a nice number, but more importantly, people will know that mo3-mo8 is where the majority of the fighting will be. Think of my proposal as a foundation for the other changes. It's much better than the one we have now in that it's balanced in its range, emphasizing mid-level fighting, doesn't snowball to the high levels of ka, and makes maintaining the -high- momentum difficult. You can't have the mid-level fighting without changing the levels of momentum, and Janalon's doesn't have the finesse with the compounding mo-penalties; in fact, it can't handle it as well.

The ninjakari hardlock would drop three levels of momentum, which would reduce ka in any situation. In fact, any two mo-penalized actions will drop at least 3 levels excluding the two -0mo penalities. It's a compound effect, and it'll require 2 forms to make up for the ka lost, one of which has to be the mo-booster.

So, in short:

- Emphasizes mid-momentum fighting and requires monk to work for the high-tier combinations
- Momentum penalties make stacking them a more costly choice.
- It becomes impossible to spam penalizing forms that have two or more penalties as it will take at least 3 levels of momentum to recover the ka. (Excluding the two -0mo skills.)
- People can take a hit from a monk knowing that the next attack won't always be ridiculously more powerful, which means people can stay and -fight- a monk.
- Hindering a monk actually matters as you can force them at the same amount of ka for a lengthy period of time.
- You can turn it up to 11.

So under your system, I have a larger window to spam -1mo kata actions such as Ootangk (which causes 75% curing failure based on locked limb). Also, you would require monks to have six forms to climb through momentum: 250 ka, 350 ka, 500 ka, 750 ka, 900 ka, and 1000 ka? That wouldn't even count the double-up from raze and lunge adaptations of those same forms, or the possibility of having multiple forms to change limb target for the guilds that have more arm/leg based affliction?

Janalon:

So under your system, I have a larger window to spam -1mo kata actions such as Ootangk (which causes 75% curing failure based on locked limb). Also, you would require monks to have six forms to climb through momentum: 250 ka, 350 ka, 500 ka, 750 ka, 900 ka, and 1000 ka? That wouldn't even count the double-up from raze and lunge adaptations of those same forms, or the possibility of having multiple forms to change limb target for the guilds that have more arm/leg based affliction?

One thing to consider: under my system, the approach to monk combat would have to shift. It's no longer about reaching 5mo (or 10 in this instance) and slamming down the enemy. It's about fighting in the middle ground and setting up combinations.

You do have a larger window to spam single instances of -1mo, but consider how ineffective that would be. You're not maximizing anything at that point, and while 75% cure failure is not something to blink about, Ootangk is a two-handed action, leaving only a kick. What are you preventing them from curing then? Ootangk might be a problem, but I would say that it's unique rather than common. A Ninja could spam Ashlamkh, but it's only 1 regen cure per every 3 seconds as opposed to 2 or 3 at once over every 6. I don't foresee that as being particularly difficult to handle.

Your second concern: I suggested a special syntax for the lunge, such that you wouldn't need multiple forms of the same 3 actions, so that's not as bad as you think. Additionally, in my experience, you only need three copies for different levels of momentum as there aren't enough mods to carry the base actions all the way up the ladder. You might have a 750ka, 900ka, and 1000ka version of form F, but form F is too expensive for 250 ka, 350 ka, and 500 ka.

I think the smart monks would have three modes: initial combat (250 and 350 ka), mid-level (500 and 750), and high level (900 and 1000). The design of my system isn't about rushing up the momentum ladder, but rather about reaching the mid-level and setting up high-level combos. The point is, a monk should be happy in the mid-level and awesome at the high, but you can't sustain the high and maintain an effective offense.

I think we both know that you have to use mo-penalizing actions simultaneously to get anywhere, and the system is designed to reward smart use of that without allowing a fast recovery of those moves. Any -1mo actions that are problematic from the spam, I assert, are the exception and probably need to be looked at.


As an after-thought, it might be a wise idea to have the instakills (except maybe Crunch) drop 3 momentum. It prevents spamming them and if the target dies, there's another -2mo added on for the target switch, meaning that a monk would be at 500 ka.

Currently Nekotai do not have much offensive variety at their disposal outside an 1000 ka form. Would we have to redo all of our skills to drop ka costs?

Janalon:

Currently Nekotai do not have much offensive variety at their disposal outside an 1000 ka form. Would we have to redo all of our skills to drop ka costs?

If that's a legitimate concern, then looking at ka costs would be acceptable. I also believe that a special report is in place for this purpose. As I said, I'm trying to give a better foundation for monks to work with. You all have already mentioned problems with your skillset, and I don't see why existing problems should prevent a better system to be put into place.

If that's a legitimate concern, then looking at ka costs would be acceptable. I also believe that a special report is in place for this purpose. As I said, I'm trying to give a better foundation for monks to work with. You all have already mentioned problems with your skillset, and I don't see why existing problems should prevent a better system to be put into place.


Read through the Nekotai skillset. Let me know what tactics could be accomplished with 500 ka. How about with 750 ka. Invalidating an entire skillset to introduce a new, complex mechanic doesn't seem finesse to me.

Janalon:


Read through the Nekotai skillset. Let me know what tactics could be accomplished with 500 ka. How about with 750 ka. Invalidating an entire skillset to introduce a new, complex mechanic doesn't seem finesse to me.

I don't think you read what I said. I don't want to invalidate an entire skillset, and quite frankly, I don't see why the skillset can't be changed as well if things will fail, but to answer your question:

Angknek is going to be a good skill to use, especially with kaiga. That's...500 ka and a pretty damn good bleeding offense. Spronghai is also a good kick rather than modifying with kaiga. You also have Oothai + kick with an Amahai ending.

I'll admit, that you guys have more expensive things than Ninjakari do, but I think it's okay to lower ka costs to make the mid-level fighting work. You're rejecting my proposal without considering everything. I've already stated, multiple times, that changes to momentum won't fix monks. You need to address skills too, which, I believe, is where your concerns come in.

Well, let's look at the merits of my momentum proposal without worrying if it's going to invalidate skills and instead focus on whether or not it's a good idea. If we like it, then we can move on to the skillsets and give them an update too.


I also fail to see what's complex about what I'm proposing. Momentum is already complex, and adding the additional momentum penalty isn't particularly difficult to understand. In fact, it's simple. There is an extra -1mo loss for every momentum penalty within a form excluding the first.