Malarious2011-10-26 18:45:50
Dont post warrior changes here, they have their own thread.
Also:
Suggested Primary Mechanic Changes:
+ Changing targets should no longer drop you below the "threshold" momentum. The threshold momentum is the point you see variation in forms, in the current system this would be either mo2 or mo3 depending on who you speak to. Your momentum can still fall below this through skill use or failing to land a form over time.
+ Lunge mods should be adjusted to cost 1p per hit that is effected by such hits. This could be directly compared to warriors who had similar changes made to such attacks. As it is if you miss your weapon attacks but the kick hits it still costs 3p, under the change that would cost 1p. If you do not land you are not charged.
+ Grapples should be seperated from weapon speed. The base recovery of a grapple should be higher than the standard writhe, but speed modifier should put you 0.25 to 0.3 seconds faster approximately. This way we avoid the pitfalls of failed grapples and it would equalize it for all tiers of runes.
+ I disagree with introducing further momentum loss as an overall as it would devastate some insta's.
+ I also dislike adding many momentum levels. It does not increase balance, it increases boredom. I take twice as long to get somewhere but see no benefit earlier on really, this feels like a bad system. I would rather see the early momentums increase faster, mo0 is 300 for instance, mo1 is 350, yada yada. Progressively increasing instead of burst increases or having to wait till mo3 to be able to do anything.
Also:
Suggested Primary Mechanic Changes:
+ Changing targets should no longer drop you below the "threshold" momentum. The threshold momentum is the point you see variation in forms, in the current system this would be either mo2 or mo3 depending on who you speak to. Your momentum can still fall below this through skill use or failing to land a form over time.
+ Lunge mods should be adjusted to cost 1p per hit that is effected by such hits. This could be directly compared to warriors who had similar changes made to such attacks. As it is if you miss your weapon attacks but the kick hits it still costs 3p, under the change that would cost 1p. If you do not land you are not charged.
+ Grapples should be seperated from weapon speed. The base recovery of a grapple should be higher than the standard writhe, but speed modifier should put you 0.25 to 0.3 seconds faster approximately. This way we avoid the pitfalls of failed grapples and it would equalize it for all tiers of runes.
+ I disagree with introducing further momentum loss as an overall as it would devastate some insta's.
+ I also dislike adding many momentum levels. It does not increase balance, it increases boredom. I take twice as long to get somewhere but see no benefit earlier on really, this feels like a bad system. I would rather see the early momentums increase faster, mo0 is 300 for instance, mo1 is 350, yada yada. Progressively increasing instead of burst increases or having to wait till mo3 to be able to do anything.
Janalon2011-10-26 18:58:19
Quorre:
I think adding a power cost to the momentum boosting strikes was a really good thing. Before, I could tendon-kaife-tendon-kaife-tendon ad infinitum, I'm sure other guilds probably had something silly like that they could do. Adding a power cost to certain regen afflictions is another good idea I feel, but that would potentially make certain things for monks super expensive (nekotai green lock would then cost what, 7 power and 2 momentum?).
If we do add a power cost, I would suggest taking the power cost of boost down, say 1-2 power. This would mean that at mid level you could choose to get the temporary boost at say 3 or 4 to use 4 or 5 momentum moves, or you could still kaife to get a the permanent momentum jump. It means the high end stuff is easier to use, but the high end stuff ususally does regen cures, so that would be accounted for by the power cost to use them. It also would mean at mo3 you could spend 2 power to use mo5, but if you do use the regen affs you'll be busted down to mo 1 anyhow.
I don't think we could just take regen afflictions and simply add a power cost on top of other penalties (i.e. expensive ka costs and momentum penalties). Take angkhai tendon for example:
550 -2mo Angkhai Adds torn tendon & relapsing Legs
The 550 cost was quite intentional to prevent regen aff perma proning by requiring the 5 power +boost for a double tendon.
WHAT IF you were to add a 2 power cost to each tendon (requiring a comparable 4 power for double tendon, but then costing another 2 power for each subsequent tendon to upkeep prone). Then we could justifyably argue to drop ka cost from 550 to 500 (maybe even lower).
The -2mo penalty might or might not have to stick. Imagine what a -4mo double tendon might look like under either Sahm or my momentum proposals. You get some interesting variations on what middle momentum means for monk combat.
This is the type of kata action, penalty readjustment I'd love to begin discussing.
Janalon2011-10-26 19:10:24
Malarious:
Dont post warrior changes here, they have their own thread.
Also:
Suggested Primary Mechanic Changes:
+ Changing targets should no longer drop you below the "threshold" momentum. The threshold momentum is the point you see variation in forms, in the current system this would be either mo2 or mo3 depending on who you speak to. Your momentum can still fall below this through skill use or failing to land a form over time.
+ Lunge mods should be adjusted to cost 1p per hit that is effected by such hits. This could be directly compared to warriors who had similar changes made to such attacks. As it is if you miss your weapon attacks but the kick hits it still costs 3p, under the change that would cost 1p. If you do not land you are not charged.
+ Grapples should be seperated from weapon speed. The base recovery of a grapple should be higher than the standard writhe, but speed modifier should put you 0.25 to 0.3 seconds faster approximately. This way we avoid the pitfalls of failed grapples and it would equalize it for all tiers of runes.
+ I disagree with introducing further momentum loss as an overall as it would devastate some insta's.
+ I also dislike adding many momentum levels. It does not increase balance, it increases boredom. I take twice as long to get somewhere but see no benefit earlier on really, this feels like a bad system. I would rather see the early momentums increase faster, mo0 is 300 for instance, mo1 is 350, yada yada. Progressively increasing instead of burst increases or having to wait till mo3 to be able to do anything.
Malarious, I'd love to think about scaling momentum penalties for switch target. Group combat and astral hunting (really anything that requires constant change of target) is really a pain. For example, we could suggest higher momentum loss the higher the momentum, or a standard momentum loss with a loss-less threshold (lose nothing below 1mo or 2mo).
Lunge doesn't apply to kicks, only weapon attacks (at least based on my research). That means no damage, bleed, or wound bonus to kicks when. Are you suggesting kicks should be impacted by lunge, or that lunge mod only cost 2 power for weapon+weapon attack? Or that kicks somehow cost towards this newly suggested cost differential even though lunge doesn't directly impact kicks?
Interesting thought on grapples, though I am not sure that I understand the real benefit here. Just asking for you to elaborate your thoughts on this topic. Where do you see the pitfalls of failed grapples and what is the difference in speed for the various tiers of runes? Does that play a significant factor into combat, or at least enough to warrant a mechanical change?
Yes, I also dislike adding many momentum levels as well. I also agree that I'd prefer to see a more linear approach to scaling ka costs to momentum levels so that we may have more fluid momentum gain and loss, and thereby open up tactics for middle momentum. Nekotai actions like sprongk or ootangk might really benefit from this change.
EDIT: What was the warrior change that was posted here? Did I miss something?
EDIT: Oops. I see what your warrior comment was about. OK.
Malarious2011-10-26 20:39:16
If your weapons miss but your kick lands, it still uses 3p if you had lunge mod because somethin hit.
Grapples I want to see less of a gap between say aslaran with 250 speed chain vs human with 220 speed. As it is the aslaran will far and away have quicker recovery which leads to issues where some combinations can lead to states of near perma prone or unconcious. Grapples should be able to reliably get enders. This is probably the most questionable change but the idea is that if everyone can use enders you balance to that instead of assuming only specific groups can do them. Which also reduces the gap.
Sorry if that makes little sense, have work shortly have to go so I rushed it. bye!
Grapples I want to see less of a gap between say aslaran with 250 speed chain vs human with 220 speed. As it is the aslaran will far and away have quicker recovery which leads to issues where some combinations can lead to states of near perma prone or unconcious. Grapples should be able to reliably get enders. This is probably the most questionable change but the idea is that if everyone can use enders you balance to that instead of assuming only specific groups can do them. Which also reduces the gap.
Sorry if that makes little sense, have work shortly have to go so I rushed it. bye!
Binjo2011-10-26 23:19:58
Malarious:
Dont post warrior changes here, they have their own thread.
Also:
Suggested Primary Mechanic Changes:
+ Changing targets should no longer drop you below the "threshold" momentum. The threshold momentum is the point you see variation in forms, in the current system this would be either mo2 or mo3 depending on who you speak to. Your momentum can still fall below this through skill use or failing to land a form over time.
+ Lunge mods should be adjusted to cost 1p per hit that is effected by such hits. This could be directly compared to warriors who had similar changes made to such attacks. As it is if you miss your weapon attacks but the kick hits it still costs 3p, under the change that would cost 1p. If you do not land you are not charged.
+ Grapples should be seperated from weapon speed. The base recovery of a grapple should be higher than the standard writhe, but speed modifier should put you 0.25 to 0.3 seconds faster approximately. This way we avoid the pitfalls of failed grapples and it would equalize it for all tiers of runes.
My purpose in posting about warriors was primarily to point out why people think monks are a problem and not for actual submission into the report. I'll flesh them out in their own thread (assuming 30 other people haven't done so for me). On to the monkiness:
I disagree that there should be a floor to target-change momentum loss. I view that part of the mechanic as a legitimate way to punish monks in groups. Often I'm forced to decide between chasing in unfavorable conditions or losing my momentum. If I were guaranteed not to dip below 2-3mo that would allow me to play more conservatively and still maintain my offense, in other words I think an opponents ability to force you to make those types of choices is a balanced weakness for monks. There are a couple of more minor problems I do have with this though: the first is that (last I checked) you lose the 2mo even if you don't actually hit a new target (say you decide to change targets and that new target leaves again) I think that you should only lose the momentum if you hit something. The second is in PvE as a demi it can actually be challenging to stay at 2mo for the speed modifier so it would be nice (although probably not going to happen) if it were changed in its application to mobs.
That lunge change you proposed sounds good to me.
I like your grapple idea as well. One thing to consider though is I think part of why grapples have been modified so much are due to the chasm between what a runed aslaran monk needs to get off an ender and what an unruned non-balance buff race needs to do it. So you may want to think about factoring out racial advantages too. (And yes this is dripping with self-interest because currently there's a great deal of game mechanic pressure to go aslaran and I don't want to.)
Malarious2011-10-27 19:26:11
The reason for having a floor that the penalty can put you to is for some of the reasons you listed:
1) PvE
2) In case you cant hit the target. Supposedly because of how kata perform is setup it would be harder to adjust this then to just make a floor.
3) You need not "punish" monks in groups, they are already subpar compared to most. Monks in groups are some of the least effectual in many cases.
4) Most targets die too fast to maintain many hits on them, this leads to "hits" that penalize you for hitting because they die too fast. If I want to be able to do more than grab I usually target someone entirely different from the rest of the group. Why should I have to give up having any offense when no one else does? Everyone elses things work the same.
As for grapple I did not factor races because of tae'dae. As has been said Thul with oothai was a painful nightmare, imagine if he grappled 21% faster than he did before (his penalty would be ignored). His DPS would have been crazy. Aslaran are fast but lower strength so in theory they do less damage.
1) PvE
2) In case you cant hit the target. Supposedly because of how kata perform is setup it would be harder to adjust this then to just make a floor.
3) You need not "punish" monks in groups, they are already subpar compared to most. Monks in groups are some of the least effectual in many cases.
4) Most targets die too fast to maintain many hits on them, this leads to "hits" that penalize you for hitting because they die too fast. If I want to be able to do more than grab I usually target someone entirely different from the rest of the group. Why should I have to give up having any offense when no one else does? Everyone elses things work the same.
As for grapple I did not factor races because of tae'dae. As has been said Thul with oothai was a painful nightmare, imagine if he grappled 21% faster than he did before (his penalty would be ignored). His DPS would have been crazy. Aslaran are fast but lower strength so in theory they do less damage.
Janalon2011-10-27 20:01:03
I might be wrong, but I believe Thul waited for the second choke message before reapplying (when possible). Speed bonus and balance chasing doesn't necessarily pull ahead in an oothai strategy... not even factoring strength and damage bonus.
Malarious2011-10-29 08:47:55
A pure oothai strategy would be a good system to fail with, by spamming oothai on balance you can get the vessels kick off though which is generally more powerful in my opinion.
Janalon2011-10-29 11:05:22
Correct. Spamming oothai+vessels (with the potential for amihai+vessels followup) would be more powerful for most people, especially the low strength, speed races. If you were Thul doing about 2k per oothai tic... you would utilize your outlier strength (which is calculated at 50 additional points of damage per str point) to oothai and wait for second choke tic when target was prone. He'd use rush and oothai out of form while off rush balance and while target was prone... which worked at that time.
We've seen recent nerfs to out of form attacks and damage bonus to prone. We will most likely see additional forms of asphyxiation resistance DMP commonly available in the near future. The double choke trick may not be a viable part of future Nekotai strategy. Although I do agree with your "generally" statement, I still also believe in the validity of my "doesn't necessarily statement," especially when dealing with outlier strength and damage bonuses (such as Thul). These facts don't need to be mutually exclusive.
Aside from that, thank you for explaining your change to speed rune/racial speed on grapple idea:
This would be something I'd be interested in putting through envoy and will hopefully make the final review for special report.
We've seen recent nerfs to out of form attacks and damage bonus to prone. We will most likely see additional forms of asphyxiation resistance DMP commonly available in the near future. The double choke trick may not be a viable part of future Nekotai strategy. Although I do agree with your "generally" statement, I still also believe in the validity of my "doesn't necessarily statement," especially when dealing with outlier strength and damage bonuses (such as Thul). These facts don't need to be mutually exclusive.
Aside from that, thank you for explaining your change to speed rune/racial speed on grapple idea:
Malarious:
Grapples I want to see less of a gap between say aslaran with 250 speed chain vs human with 220 speed. As it is the aslaran will far and away have quicker recovery which leads to issues where some combinations can lead to states of near perma prone or unconcious. Grapples should be able to reliably get enders. This is probably the most questionable change but the idea is that if everyone can use enders you balance to that instead of assuming only specific groups can do them. Which also reduces the gap.
This would be something I'd be interested in putting through envoy and will hopefully make the final review for special report.
Janalon2011-10-29 15:32:40
I know Sojiro's eyes must gloss over while reading this thread. So here is a recap of what I see as the viable proposals provided in this thread:
And here are two other momentum adjustment ideas:
EDIT: Enhanced readability at the request of Malarious.
- Introduce new kata performance syntax to help new players with PVE & PVP: KATA PERFORM MOMENTUM
<1mo form> Jana's proposal - Sahm's proposal
And here are two other momentum adjustment ideas:
Current momentum system with adjustment to 4mo cap.
0mo 250 ka
1mo 250 ka
2mo 350 ka
3mo 500 ka (increase from 450 to 500 to smooth middle level)
4mo 750 ka
5mo 1000 ka
6mo +1500 ka (needs boost)
Variation on my current proposal to reduce a momentum level by eliminating one of two 750 ka levels.
0mo 250 ka
1mo 250 ka
2mo 250 ka
3mo 500 ka
4mo 500 ka
5mo 750 ka (only one 750 ka level rather than two)
6mo 1000 ka
7mo +1500 ka (needs boost)
EDIT: Enhanced readability at the request of Malarious.
Janalon2011-11-01 10:33:49
I understand that this report probably does extend into adjusting artifacts. So I will only attempt to define a problem, and not offer any potential solution (at least in this particular post).
Anyway, here is a dual wielding warrior with two weapons: W1 and W2.
| W1 | W1 | W1 | W2 | W2 | W2 |
Now that warrior purchases two, 250 credit damage mod runes (one for each weapon), converting 1/6 damage per weapon:
| R1 | W1 | W1 | R2 | W2 | W2 |
Now, here is a Nekotai monk (in this example) with damage split between kicks and two nekai weapons: K1, N1, N2 respectively.
| N1 | N1 | N1 | N2 | N2 | N2 |
| K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 |
Now, that Nekotai monk makes the same 500 credit purchase to acquire two damage mod runes or R. Here is the effect:
| R1 | N1 | N1 | R2 | N2 | N2 |
| K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 |
Since unarmed kicks account for half of the damage output, and unarmed actions are not modded by weapon runes (except speed on a weapon stat rune), the effectiveness of said purchase is also halved. One, 1/6 rune is essentially halved to 1/12 effectiveness.
Monk don't need to rely on runes because they are half-effective at the same cost to what a warrior would pay.
Anyway, here is a dual wielding warrior with two weapons: W1 and W2.
| W1 | W1 | W1 | W2 | W2 | W2 |
Now that warrior purchases two, 250 credit damage mod runes (one for each weapon), converting 1/6 damage per weapon:
| R1 | W1 | W1 | R2 | W2 | W2 |
Now, here is a Nekotai monk (in this example) with damage split between kicks and two nekai weapons: K1, N1, N2 respectively.
| N1 | N1 | N1 | N2 | N2 | N2 |
| K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 |
Now, that Nekotai monk makes the same 500 credit purchase to acquire two damage mod runes or R. Here is the effect:
| R1 | N1 | N1 | R2 | N2 | N2 |
| K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 | K1 |
Since unarmed kicks account for half of the damage output, and unarmed actions are not modded by weapon runes (except speed on a weapon stat rune), the effectiveness of said purchase is also halved. One, 1/6 rune is essentially halved to 1/12 effectiveness.
Monk don't need to rely on runes because they are half-effective at the same cost to what a warrior would pay.
Ytran2011-11-01 16:38:52
Unless a kick does the same damage as two weapon attacks, that comparison is off.
Janalon2011-11-01 19:00:40
Ytran:
Unless a kick does the same damage as two weapon attacks, that comparison is off.
Why would I assert such a claim if the following was not a well documented fact: the damage/wound output from kicks is equal if not greater than two concurring weapon attacks. So the comparrison is dead on, if not most likely understated.
Enyalida2011-11-01 19:11:29
In case it means something, that all seems correct as a non-career monk who has dabbled. Doesn't look like they're trying to pull a fast one with that comparison to me.
Ytran2011-11-01 19:30:48
Janalon:
Why would I assert such a claim if the following was not a well documented fact: the damage/wound output from kicks is equal if not greater than two concurring weapon attacks. So the comparrison is dead on, if not most likely understated.
I bring it up only because it's logical, both mechanically and in terms of RP, that the kick would have diminished impact as compared to the weapon attacks. I don't have any actual experience with monks; it just feels weird that skewering someone with a claw is somehow half as effective as a kick.
(Nekai are claws, right?)
Janalon2011-11-02 02:35:07
@Ytran. Monk strategy: weapons primarily afflict, kicks primarily damages/wounds. Of course that is oversimplification, but you get the picture.
Over the summer mobs received resistances, and select guilds received alternate damage types. Damage mod combined with damage shift was a means to address slow PVE bashing speed for mages/druids. Though, bards also received an alternate damage attack.
That is the line of thinking that led to the creation of Warrior REPORT 697. It was proposed that all warrior guilds receive 1/6 skill-based damage mod ( S ) that would stack atop the 2/6 rune ( R ) damage mods. Here is the visual for their suggestion (simplified for a two-handed weapon):
| R | R | S | W | W | W |
And if monks were to directly port the same strategy? Only 25% damage mod could be achieved; half that of the warrior.
| R | R | S | N | N | N |
| K | K | K | K | K | K |
In order to achieve 50% damage modification, monks would need 4/12's damage mod split between armed and unarmed attacks. Though, to complicate matters, monks already receive several damage bonuses for PVP: prone, kata mods, damage scaling to wounds, ibululu poison.
The question then becomes HOW to offer monks some damage mod strategies for PVE application that isn't OP for PVP, especially considering the multiple forms of damage bonus. This leads me to consider nerfing damage scaling to wounds in favor for more balanced arties (which is off limits for either an envoy report or special report) and new, skill based damage mods.
REPORT 552 details that thinking, but (to be honest) it feels too large for a regular envoy report. Even though I was considering submitting it this cycle, I'd like to post my report to this thread for consideration towards special report.
Over the summer mobs received resistances, and select guilds received alternate damage types. Damage mod combined with damage shift was a means to address slow PVE bashing speed for mages/druids. Though, bards also received an alternate damage attack.
That is the line of thinking that led to the creation of Warrior REPORT 697. It was proposed that all warrior guilds receive 1/6 skill-based damage mod ( S ) that would stack atop the 2/6 rune ( R ) damage mods. Here is the visual for their suggestion (simplified for a two-handed weapon):
| R | R | S | W | W | W |
And if monks were to directly port the same strategy? Only 25% damage mod could be achieved; half that of the warrior.
| R | R | S | N | N | N |
| K | K | K | K | K | K |
In order to achieve 50% damage modification, monks would need 4/12's damage mod split between armed and unarmed attacks. Though, to complicate matters, monks already receive several damage bonuses for PVP: prone, kata mods, damage scaling to wounds, ibululu poison.
The question then becomes HOW to offer monks some damage mod strategies for PVE application that isn't OP for PVP, especially considering the multiple forms of damage bonus. This leads me to consider nerfing damage scaling to wounds in favor for more balanced arties (which is off limits for either an envoy report or special report) and new, skill based damage mods.
REPORT 552 details that thinking, but (to be honest) it feels too large for a regular envoy report. Even though I was considering submitting it this cycle, I'd like to post my report to this thread for consideration towards special report.
Problem: REPORT 697 introduces 1/6 skill-based, damage type mods for warriors. Given the 2/6 damage mod available on 500 credits worth of damage type runes, warriors can alter 50% of weapon's natural damage type. On the other hand, monks split damage between 1 blunt, unarmed kick and 2 weapon attacks (Nekotai & Shofangi cutting, Tahtetso & Ninjakari blunt). Weapon runes do not effect monk kicks, and therefore halves impact of damage type runes on total damage output. As an aside, I suggest the admin not to shoehorn monks into warrior weapon rune system. Create a new set of monk specific runes that addresses the weapon / unarmed split. For example, decrease the credit cost if "weapon only" or increase the scope to also cover unarmed actions such as punches and kicks, not chokes, locks, throws or enders. 125 for one weapon rune, and 250 for a kick rune seems appropriate given it would convert 1/3 monk damage to a new type. Off the soapbox, I agree with the mentality of REPORT 697 that warriors (& monks) should also have tuning-like abilities. This report suggests skill-based, damage mods for kicks in particular.
Solution #1: Give monks a 3 power defense confer 33% an alternate damage type on unarmed attacks through new secondary and tertiary skills. These skills are mutually exclusive and cannot be stacked with one another. SECONDARY: Stealth "Shadow Fist" gives excorable damage. Harmony "Lumin Strike" gives divinus type. TERTIARY: Psychometabolism "Psychic Fist" gives psychic damage. Acrobatics "Choking Strike" gives asphyxiation type. Remember, 1/3 damage mod on kicks equates to 1/6 total damage output.
Solution #2: Give a new skill to poisoners to distill certain poisons into an "elemental oil" to be ENVENOMed or COATed onto a weapon for 1/6 alternate damage type. Skill to have same duration as Oil of Sharpness. Ideas include: pyrotoxin distilled into fire elemental oil, mactans into cold, mellitin into electric, crotamine into poison, escozul into psychic, etc. If this is OP, could balance by blocking poison envenom while elemental oil is applied. This could work with Solutions 1 and 3, or as a replacement to REPORT 697
Solution #3: Alternate to Solution 1, create a new primary spec, kick-specific, alternate damage mod. Considering monk damage bonuses (i.e. wounds, prone, kata mods), the requisite ka cost should be balanced towards PVE. Since monks max PVE forms at 250 ka, offer one 25% alternate damage mod to kicks at 375 ka cost (to be used in a 4mo form). A second 25% damage mod should stack with the first given an additional 375 ka cost (to be used in a 5mo form). I'll leave it to comments for suggestions which guild should be assigned what damage type(s).
Malarious2011-11-02 04:40:31
My thoughts real fast:
- Introduce new kata performance syntax to help new players with PVE & PVP: KATA PERFORM MOMENTUM
<1mo form>
Placeus2011-11-02 05:37:25
I'm a bit wary of posting in such a long thread where lots of ideas are bouncing around, but I guess I'll throw in a few thoughts.
One of the requirements for these special reports seems to be that they are as simple as possible to implement. While changing the number of momentum levels is one way to fix monks up, it would then require a reevaluation of the ka and momentum costs of every skill which I don't think can be considered simple.
Some suggestions that I would put forward in order from most to least important are:
- Increase the rate of momentum loss if the target is not in the room with the monk e.g. -1mo every 3 seconds.
- reduce the efficacy of grapples for low momentum hindering
- reduce the reliance on grapples for delivering key afflictions (ninja tendon, tahtetso windpipe etc). Move these to two-handed actions with appropriate ka, mo and wound costs.
- increase the options monks have for low ka, no wound, hindering afflictions. Not necessarily hard hinders like paralysis/stun/prone, but affs with a less certain hindering effect, broken limbs/crushed foot/stupidity/dizziness/hallucinations etc.
- Reduce the rate of momenum loss if the current target is in the room with the monk. I'm not 100% sure this is necessary but haven't been an active monk since the change to kata speed. Perhaps -1mo every 10 seconds.
These changes are targetted towards making it easier to get away from a monk before they get to 4-5mo and start wreaking havoc.
I'd love to go on to suggest tweaking damage/wounding levels so that some wounds remain on targets who flee and wait for momentum to drop. This would allow the monk to use attacks with wound requirements for a better hinder.
I'll heed my own advice and not go into this though :D
One of the requirements for these special reports seems to be that they are as simple as possible to implement. While changing the number of momentum levels is one way to fix monks up, it would then require a reevaluation of the ka and momentum costs of every skill which I don't think can be considered simple.
Some suggestions that I would put forward in order from most to least important are:
- Increase the rate of momentum loss if the target is not in the room with the monk e.g. -1mo every 3 seconds.
- reduce the efficacy of grapples for low momentum hindering
- reduce the reliance on grapples for delivering key afflictions (ninja tendon, tahtetso windpipe etc). Move these to two-handed actions with appropriate ka, mo and wound costs.
- increase the options monks have for low ka, no wound, hindering afflictions. Not necessarily hard hinders like paralysis/stun/prone, but affs with a less certain hindering effect, broken limbs/crushed foot/stupidity/dizziness/hallucinations etc.
- Reduce the rate of momenum loss if the current target is in the room with the monk. I'm not 100% sure this is necessary but haven't been an active monk since the change to kata speed. Perhaps -1mo every 10 seconds.
These changes are targetted towards making it easier to get away from a monk before they get to 4-5mo and start wreaking havoc.
I'd love to go on to suggest tweaking damage/wounding levels so that some wounds remain on targets who flee and wait for momentum to drop. This would allow the monk to use attacks with wound requirements for a better hinder.
I'll heed my own advice and not go into this though :D
Janalon2011-11-02 07:50:05
Malarious:
- Various momentum readjustment proposals to (slightly) delay reaching top momentum, increase wiggle room for balancing momentum loss penalties, and enhance fluidity between high and low to build out a middle momentum tier. If this is a big concern I have to propose my own list to try to increase enjoyment not increase the time you are bored: ( I dislike your lists still Jan, 6>7 you never hit 7!)
Mo 0 - 250
Mo 1 - 400
Mo 2 - 550
Mo 3 - 650
Mo 4 - 750
Mo 5 - 800
Mo 6 - 900
Mo 7 - 1000
Mo 8 - 1500
I dislike staying low for long at all, if needed the ++mo skills can be changed to 2/3p.
You dislike my ideas, or my table formatting? Sorry about the tables :( In retrospect, I was trying to clarify for the non-monk crowd (but probably only added some confusion). My apologies, I can repost with a more simplified view, but don't want to clot up this thread with redundancy.
Mal, by "increase enjoyment not increase the time you are bored," and "I dislike staying low for long at all" I am taking that to mean how long you have to stay at low momentum. It appears that in your momentum redesign, you jump into higher kata cap at much lower momentum, and scale higher very, very quickly. In fact, it goes against the ideas of somewhat delaying how quickly monks can reach effective momentum levels. That seems like a unnecessary buff unless you can more properly define the problem of hanging at low momentum. In my proposals I tried to be sensitive at not overpowering lower momentum by increasing costs. Sahm's momentum proposal had the same general sensitivity in this regard as well.
Otherwise your proposal seems to over-complicate matters for several reasons. First, it would require 8 unique forms to progress through the various tiers of momentum. I already use my max 75 forms with 5 momentum levels; without an artie to increase kata capacity, I would be limited by the kata cap rather quickly. Secondly, Placeus asserts, "While changing the number of momentum levels is one way to fix monks up, it would then require a reevaluation of the ka and momentum costs of every skill which I don't think can be considered simple." Agreed. You would have to reevaluate what is possible for each guild at nearly every momentum level. My proposals work well within the pre-defined kata caps so a action/mod ka cost rebalance is not necessary. Besides, you and I have previously argued that Nekotai do not have any effective affliction kata combinations until well beyond the 750 ka mark. That would be delayed as well.
I don't think dropping costs on the +boost or ++boost will happen as it seems like another unnecessary buff without a well defined problem. Although I didn't reiterate the point, but a change to the momentum gain skill (kaife for Nekotai) by dropping ka cost from 350 to 250, and possibly placing an effectiveness cap. This change could help address momentum gain at the earliest stages of momentum. Which, speaking of,
Placeus:
- reduce the efficacy of grapples for low momentum hindering
Nekotai only have grapple hindering and angknek spam from 1mo through 4mo. Effective affliction options only become available at 5mo. Essentially you would need to increase ka costs for the basic grapple, and then replace this with low-level hindering afflictions (meaning a handful of new skills for each guild). But Placeus, you already address this in your proposal:
Placeus:
- increase the options monks have for low ka, no wound, hindering afflictions. Not necessarily hard hinders like paralysis/stun/prone, but affs with a less certain hindering effect, broken limbs/crushed foot/stupidity/dizziness/hallucinations etc.
I have neither a favorable nor dis-favorable impression of this proposal. It just seems like a shell game to me. Remove the "evil" we have for an evil we don't know, without making the monk specs necessarily better. Though, as far as your other proposals:
Placeus:
One of the requirements for these special reports seems to be that they are as simple as possible to implement.
- Increase the rate of momentum loss if the target is not in the room with the monk e.g. -1mo every 3 seconds.
- Reduce the rate of momenum loss if the current target is in the room with the monk. I'm not 100% sure this is necessary but haven't been an active monk since the change to kata speed. Perhaps -1mo every 10 seconds.
I'd love to go on to suggest tweaking damage/wounding levels so that some wounds remain on targets who flee and wait for momentum to drop. This would allow the monk to use attacks with wound requirements for a better hinder.
Not sure how easy they would be to code, as I don't see a precedent these ideas in other aspects of the game. What defines a monk target? How long would the server need to "remember" the monk's last target? How often would the server need to check for moved target to proc the different tiers of momentum loss? Otherwise the "monk deflate" strategy would be to leave the room to decrease monk's momentum more quickly. Without grapples at low momentum (as you have proposed), this would become an annoying game of cat and mouse. Not saying that it isn't already now (I admittedly don't have much combat experience), but it would become more so under your proposal.
Ooh, one last thing. Malarious, you said:
Malarious:
- Rebalance requirements/penalties for most kata afflictions. Especially consider adding power costs & readjust other penalties for regen afflictions. These would have to be more specific, this is a generic statement and would get a no as per similar answers from divine (dont say fix, say how).
Generally I agree with your statement. I always prefer to read specific detail rather than vague statements. However, my generic statement was quite intentional to suit Sojiro's wish NOT to address a ton of specific skills in this thread.
Sojiro:
I won't lie, my eyes glaze over a bit when reading the paragraph posts about monks! :P
Please avoid addressing a ton of specific skills if you can help it, perhaps skills related to the "main" theme of x monk class, like the tahtetso instakill, and so on.
First we would have to determine which momentum plan was viable before offering readjusted penalty costs for a ton of actions. Until then, I am content to speak about generics to get my main point across. At least this way I don't have to unnecessarily writeup tons of skill changes that may never see the light of day.
Janalon2011-11-02 08:01:37
Ooohh, just to clarify a statement:
What "is actually less important than you seem to think," REPORT 552 or reducing damage bonus that scales to wounds?
Malarious:
- Rebalance how damage bonus scales with wounds to create opportunity for more skill based damage modifications (see REPORT 552). This is actually less important than you seem to think, what I would rather see is increase base damage and reduce scaling. The above is mainly in issue in groups, most monks dont stack wounds well solo.
What "is actually less important than you seem to think," REPORT 552 or reducing damage bonus that scales to wounds?
