What defines a monk target? How long would the server need to "remember" the monk's last target?

I don't know the code but I'd imagine it keeps track of the most recent thing attacked by the monk so it knows when to apply a -2mo penalty for switching targets. A check of whether that target is in the monk's room 3 seconds after the most recent momentum gain or loss was applied would work ok.

Remove the "evil" we have for an evil we don't know, without making the monk specs necessarily better.

The evil we have now is the ease with which a monk can reach dangerous momentum levels with strong, low ka cost hindering. Various grapples' ability to bypass rebounding, parry and stance mean the monk can easily get past defences which were designed to slow down melee classes.

What I propose is reducing the ease of using grapples to hinder and build momentum which will force monks to use actions that have a risk of hitting rebounding, stance and parry. This rewards a fighter who is able to properly time their rebounding and set their parry and stance.

In addition to this, give the monks some low ka actions/mods that allow mild hindering while building momentum (akin to light/medium warrior affs).

This might lead to a cat and mouse situation you describe, but other archetypes (wiccans/guardians not included) have their offence ruined by an enemy who runs away. I don't see why monks should be so good at both hindering escape and use a mechanic (7 second momentum loss ticks) that limit how quickly someone can recover if they do manage to get away.

Placeus:

The evil we have now is the ease with which a monk can reach dangerous momentum levels with strong, low ka cost hindering. Various grapples' ability to bypass rebounding, parry and stance mean the monk can easily get past defences which were designed to slow down melee classes.

Double check your facts. All unarmed actions bypass rebounding, so a PPK strategy would produce the same effects in this regard. I believe (and may be wrong) that parry/rebounding don't impact unarmed actions for the same reason weapon runes don't adjust punches and kicks. It's because they aren't weapon-based attacks.

I also believe stance can block a grapple/lock WHEN it is limb based. Trust me. Recheck the syntax. For example choke/oothai requires a head target. Locks work on any specific body part. It's the simple kata hold that doesn't have limb targeting. Although I'd have to research this claim more carefully, I imagine you could make kata hold target head and therefore respond to stance.

Also, couldn't you simply reduce the momentum loss timer from 7s to 6s or 5s and have a similar effect RATHER than code a whole new set of mechanics? Not suggesting this is a good approach. Only pointing out this approach has more of the simplicity you suggest makes for good changes.

When you refer to guardians having their offense ruined, are you addressing the entirety of their offense, or only their insta?

Janalon:


Double check your facts. All unarmed actions bypass rebounding, so a PPK strategy would produce the same effects in this regard.

Perhaps I didn't make my earlier point clear enough. My problem with grapples is that they combine hindering with a means of gaining momentum that can bypass parry/stance/rebounding. You are correct that ppk will bypass these things too, but someone can just walk away from a monk using ppk.

I think you are also overlooking the effect of the steelgrip mod when used on a grapple which targets a stanced (possibly parried for weapon grapples aswell, can't remember) body part.

You propose reducing ease of use for applying grapples at low levels of momentum. How exactly? You never quite specify. Would you eliminate grapples altogether? Make hold respond to stance like the other chokes & limb locks? Would you increase ka cost? How much? Would you make unarmed attacks respond to parry/rebounding? You give detail to the defined problem's periphary, but what about grapples themself? What is your plan???

You are saying that moving into higher ka faster is bad, and that changes to number of momentum levels would require entirely new evaluations of balance. This is wrong, most skills will have 0 impacted changes by this. The sole exceptions of concern are things like greenlocks (nekotai still would be boosting if no changes made and its been suggested shofangi get a power cost). Most "issues" that could arise can be handled with specific adjustments to a handful of skills. I see no reason to adjust most any skills beyond this and actually encourage you to touch nothing more than mandatory. If, for instance, you say we have 8 mo levels so we need a -3 mo loss on tendon then you are also saying by association that you can never follow up with a solo slit or you might be saying finalsting will never be used again.

The damage scaling is what I meant Jan, I have checked the max damage mod of a hit, and the worst conceivable problem in damage is stacked mods which we had nerfed more than once. As it is our damage is alot lower than it used to be, if for no other reason because we reduced prones effect.

I have no issues with adjusting the "problems" but stating we need to change "power" skills to simply be more like two handed actions will not resolve the issue and will likely just end up complicating it further. I agree we could use some changes their respective guilds would never agree to but I do not see them accepting them as needed. You tell Ninjakari they need a two handed tendon instead of a grapple ender and they will scream foul, along with some censorship I would imagine.

As to momentum changes... make a threshold you wont fall below. The rate of mo loss is fine, if you lose mo every 3s a druid or mage will just gust you out and you will have lost mo before you can walk back in if they do it fast enough. This is a bad system and encourages moving for short but effective periods (we would actually be dying because we lose mo but vessels would build). Leave that as is, 8s is fine, runners escape still either way.

tl;dr
The process of advancement is only as flawed as the skills it effects. So skills that need change will need change under the new terms, but nothing else. Damage is not as bad as is concerned. Dont touch momentum loss rates over time. And making some skills two handed is a good way to get 0 cooperation from the owning guild.

The only way you will generate less reliance on grapples is to make something else appealing. Right now I can do 2 hits of angknek with 0 mods and no kick at low mo. This is not fun, nor is it entertaining. I am better off grabbing than use any skills stopped by stancing, dodging, rebounding, etc. People grapple to get past some of the above generally, and I think that is a flaw in the alternatives, not a flaw in grapples.

Also, if I had my way I would make the min ka 350, because below that a nekotai will basically raze or grapple. Why encourage something that dumb? its not like we recover super fast from raze (and such speed changes result in just getting 1 arm back before the other).

Actually, raze is on a shorter bal than other attacks.

I don't think moving Ninja's tendon to a 2h action is good, but it might be more effective than the guaranteed preapply that we have now.

I'm still waiting to hear an explanation or a reason why increasing momentum levels is bad aside from the "Me-no-likey" stance.

Mal, I was wondering if you would be willing to talk about the logic behind your momentum distributions. Although it was tl:dr (with bad table formatting), I did try to justify my end result proposal by revealing my process. Could you offer the same? Mainly I am interested in how you assigned ka caps per mo.

For example, look at the ka difference between each momentum level. That is, the difference between 1mo and 2mo is 100 ka. The difference between 2mo and 3mo is 100 ka. Etc. Under the current system, you "ramp up" by gaining increased max values as you progress through momentum:

+100
+100
+300
+250

That is, with the one notable exception between 3mo > 4mo (perhaps why I used this notation in my proposals) when the numbers break scale as you move over the hump of middle momentum. All of my recommendations target middle momentum by smoothing out the "cliff."

In your proposal, you take an inverse stance of major gains in early momentum and taper downward as you progress through. There is the odd 50 ka difference between 4mo and 5mo. Do you retain the 750 ka mark to cling on some semblance of our current system?

+150
+150
+100
+100
+50
+100
+100

Seems like you are unnecessarily elevating low and high end momentum. Not sure whether you were attempting to also address middle momentum OR add levels of mo to give wiggle room to adjust action penalties.

Let me point this out. Under the old system a -2mo action penalty would drop you from 1000 ka 5mo to 450 ka 3mo, resulting in a cumulative 550 ka loss.

Under your proposal the same -2mo top tier nosedive would result a loss of 200 ka. Under your proposal a -3mo action (that you claim would be so debilitating), would net you a loss of 250 ka... or -1mo from 5mo to 4mo under the current system. IN FACT, it would require more than a -5mo penalty to give just under the same constraints as found within the current system.

What problem did you feel you were addressing through these number changes? Do we need to buff monks by decreasing the effects of momentum penalties at high-end momentum? Do we need to also raise low end at the same time? Again, it seems like an unnecessary buff unless you can provide some solid reasoning.


I'm still waiting to hear an explanation or a reason why increasing momentum levels is bad aside from the "Me-no-likey" stance.


Nothing is wrong with increasing momentum levels. I think we've all come up with variations on this theme by this point. Who said "Me-no-likey"?

As I see it, there are good-sounding ideas. There are admin-acceptable ideas. As envoy, you need to find the common middle ground between these two.

Admins prefer well-defined problems with solutions that address more issues than they create. "Scalpel" approach is the term that is often used: select the smallest change that most directly answers the problem with no unintended side effect.

Reports are often rejected because: the problem was not well defined; the change is too large; the change is too complicated to code; or introduces unintended effects. Any questionable doubt I've ever raised focused on one of these aspects of report rejection.

Under the current system there is really no reason to have a 250 ka level, this simply demands you either raze or grapple. Raze is a pure waste of time, so people usually grapple at this time. You have this stage -twice- at the moment. Proposals I saw increased the time you would be more useless than any other class, add in momentum swings from target change and that would be a good method to do nothing but grapple every fight. I disagree that adjusting momentum levels would require any change in penalties, because you can fix the reassemble the engine but it still wont work without cylinders. The problems with some monks are the skills, it is never the momentum, which is the generalized scapegoat. You want to add more levels, sure, but make it done in a more intelligent way and refrain from using low ka in any possible instance.

Low ka will only generate longer fights with no effect either way, uselessness in groups, and encourage grappling. As has been said, if you want people to use more than grapples you need to give them the reason and the means, and current ka restricts this. I would prefer to start at 350 ka myself.

The problem to address is how much time you are suggesting we stay at very low ka.

Yes, I was harsh and direct but there is little point in messing around. Lets examine what your suggestions imply:
Sahms:
o 0mo : 250o 1mo: 250o 2mo: 350o 3mo: 500o 4mo: 500o 5mo: 500o 6mo: 750o 7mo: 750o 8mo: 750o 9mo: 900o 10mo: 1000o 11mo: 1500



What it would mean is 6 forms before you can do much, as personally 500 ka is not enough ka to do much still. So I extend the time heavily to get access to more unique things. And with my high costs even this is limited in effect. The best thing about this would be the possibility to do something like slitthroat after a tendon. Overall this greatly increases the time it takes to get to a very usable point. For a ninjakari you can begin fighting much much earlier, your forms can vary more as of like mo2, but they usually use alot of grapples for hindering.

As for Janalons idea:
0 250 ka
1 250 ka
2 250 ka
3 500 ka
4 500 ka
5 750 ka
6 750 ka
7 1000 ka
8 +1500 ka (needs boost)

We take 1 more form to hit the point of neko variation (about 750 ka) that current. Not too bad, but again you create 3 rounds of very low ka, which will just encourage grapples as thy are reliable and will hinder enough to let you move on. I do prefer this over Sahmiams however. My solution was purely to shift away from extending the grapple period (250 ka) to move into more interesting forms faster. I still maintain the problem isnt the momentum levels its the skills and attempts to focus on the momentum mechanics will do little if we do not focus on skills.

Anyway, until I am asked to get involved I am going to step out of this thread. Until proposals are narrowed and the other questions answered I cannot do much here anyway. But I am annoyed and that will lead to unproductive results.

I still genuinely would like to see your skills proposals.

Heres some of quickReport.txt (the first portion of it was the mechanics stuff).

This by the way is RAW, it hasnt been adjusted or edited since first writing so some of it could be wrong. Enjoy.

Changes

Ninjakari. Perhaps one of the best balanced guilds over the time focused on developing and adjusting specific areas. The most readily available prones, herb or damage focus, with a viable insta kill. The concerns here were mostly limited to tipping point style skills. Ninjakari have an herb focus.

+ Constrict: Proposed change is to reduce the unconcious time by at least half. You can currently re-ninshi before the target can stand, guaranteeing prone bonus as well as setting up for a nearly endless chain. Unconcious is too powerful of a readily available affliction and leads into fueling itself when the "cost" is offset by ninshi regaining the moment lost. If this is too heavy handed moving it to a -2 mo would retain their effect but require an extra form each time constrict would be attempting.

+ Change Ninaali to cause increased wounds instead of an affliction on any area. This would still only apply to the basic Jakari attack (as per JAKARI ).


Tahtetso. The notorious "perma proners" or, as I have heard them called, the EZ insta monks. As of the change to regeneration priority I have not heard of this being easy solo, so I have left the insta alone! Tahtetso tend to specialize in hindering and aim for damage or their insta. Tahtetso have a salve focus.

+ Tahtetso need a closer review and without an advisor I am hesitant to suggest anything. My first reaction was to adjust how many modifiers they have by moving at least one to an action, given all their modifiers work on any normal hit so they have told me. You can literaly have 1 hit give 3 afflictions or more as a result of this before poison. At the same time sometimes this stacking of modifiers is required for combat, primarily for use of their insta.

Shofangi. The lords of the greenlock spam! I kid I kid... sort of. Shofangi have the most reliable lock for the cost, their only current cost is -mo and with readily available cracked limbs without penalty they tend to have an easy time of it. That said Shofangi also seem to suffer from underskilling, that is they seem to have alot of skills but most of their skills can only hit one area while other guilds can hit several. Their insta has been upgraded to be considerably more viable. Shofangi have a salve focus.

As a note I would like to see some skills added to this set. They have 4 seperate grapples which all target different areas and 5 enders if you include the ender that throws a person (kutamo). Open to ideas on this.

+ Introduce a cost of 3p on the use of Butojo (slit throat). This cost should not apply when it causes a mangled tongue.

+ Cracked limbs have been left as the change to Butojo should address the primary issue of their offense. If needed we can adjust this but I would like to add new skills at the same time to prevent having an 80% mo loss skillset.

Nekotai. The kings of greenlocks. They have the highest cost but most likely to stick (no its not 100% as some seem to think it is). They also suffer huge costs compared to most guilds and tend to be severely limited by both high ka and -mo on most skills. Nekotai lack a form of proning without a momentum cost, of which they require -2 mo to do. Their insta is the poster child of unusable at this time. Nekotai have a cure hindering focus.

+ Known issue: A Nekotai can achieve a state of permanent prone by tendoning and following with lock and mangle until wiped out. Open to ideas on how to fix this short of removing mangle.

Solutions for Nekotai coming soon.

AWESOME! Thank you.

Malarious:


+ Known issue: A Nekotai can achieve a state of permanent prone by tendoning and following with lock and mangle until wiped out. Open to ideas on how to fix this short of removing mangle.

Solutions for Nekotai coming soon.

Are you referring to the Oriama mangle chain lock? Or just tendon after tendon?

Oriama mangle lock, which you can just tendon to prep.

From what I can remember, the Oriama ender gives a mangle on leg when the target is prone. Yeah, you drop from 5mo down to -3mo from a single tendon, but your next lock will bring you back to 4mo, and then Oriama at 5mo with a single momentum loss back down to 4?

Done in a kata chain, you get a slight speed boost at the third form, which is the Oriama mangle. Not to mention you can chain 11 forms at trans Nekotai. Secondly, the lock/Oriama leaves kicking open. With a prone target, there is no stance/parry. Kata mods like soft and pinch nerve can be quickly built upon the legs with tons of wounds and damage.

Problem is HOW to prevent the whole perma prone.

Well, we could introduce power cost on mangle, perhaps 1p -- 3p... which could prevent chaining to a certain degree. We could also increase the momentum penalty. Not a huge fan of this plan... as without any movement on the momentum proposals, -2mo might might make it go from OP to UP without addressing the core problem. My only other thought is to change the prerequisite. Since perma prone is both the cause and the effect of Oriama, maybe have it require broken legs instead? Dunno. Just brainstorming here.

Speaking about brainstorming... Angkhai is a skill that needs tweaks along several axises. Any thoughts on that one?

Actually in retrospect, is Oriama a skill that should be changed altogether?

The grapple is considered part of the cost, its saving grace is lock also stops stand. Thats the only reason it works at all, tendoned or not. Maybe make tendon simply not count? But we cant do normal prone so paralysis and such would still have to work. Dunno just thoughts, will look at nekotai in a bit

Alright, let me take my hack at the "Nekotai" problem.

Pre-speed nerf Nekotai was the premier monk guild. At that time monks could naturally afflict faster than could be cured, so cure stacking methods and hindering methods were absolutely critical to an affliction kill. Nekotai could lay down herb-based affs like nobody's business, namely through Angknek. With Sliced Limbs available on every body part, you could pretty much cycle through to make sure the afflictions were sticking. In theory, you could even grab a friend and have them add Pierced Limbs on the arms/legs to really stick afflictions. Both Sliced and Pierced are time based, the affs had time to proc within a few forms. The greenlock was a viable because you could nearly guarantee the target had so many simple, herb afflictions by the time you reached 5mo. Cure hindering found in Sprongk and Ootangk were appropriately penalized because Nekotai didn't need any more help. Poison mods were the cherry on top, as it allowed more class specific hindering at 5mo.

Nekotai took a heavy hit on the speed nerf (which I believe was proposed through a Ninjakari report). It was an appropriate nerf, but nearly unraveled the core design of Nekotai as an affliction based class.

Now the Sliced/Pierced afflictions mean nearly nothing, as the target can out-cure afflictions. You will never see the aff tic. Of course, acrobats can 10 hyper to cram all these afflictions; psymet have no equal (and no way to use amnesia which might be a secondary solution). There is a need to bring back skill based, cure hindering in Ootangk and Sprongk, but they have not yet been put through envoy to have penalties reviewed and possibly adjusted. Spronghai's haemophilia has two cures (sanguine being the other), along with every other poison with one notable exception: anatine/relapsing. Relapsing is contained within the skill set, and found in two locations: 350 ka Angkai gut, and -1mo/-2mo 550 ka Angkhai any limb.

Yes, it is an odd overlap. Some of these issues are being addressed through REPORT 698 which is already finalized. Any admin decision will be a good indicator about how to properly proceed.

So if the plan was to bring Nekotai back to some semblance of an affliction class, you will need to readjust Angkhai (especially in regards to relapsing), Sprongk, and Ootangk. This would help to address the Sliced/Pierced issues of lower momentum. For example, maybe relapsing could be moved off Angkhai to an afflicting kick. This would first slightly soften our greenlock. Not only might this displace vessels, but it might be a way to help stack herb-based afflictions in lower momentum. I don't see it becoming immediately OP, mainly due to the fact that like Sliced/Pierced, relapsing is another time-based affliction.

Dunno. Maybe someone with more sense could either rip me apart or piggyback the next idea atop this.

EDIT: Kaiga would need to be moved to a kick and Spronghai to mod IF a relapsing kick was to displace vessels.

Mal, here you go-- my Nekotai envoy road map for the next year:

• Kaife & Spronghai to swap places. Kaife becomes a 250 ka kick, and Spronghai becomes a 150 ka kick modifier.
  
• Remove relapsing from Angkhai and place into a 250 ka kick to reinvigorate Nekotai as an affliction class.
  
• Due to overlap of haemophilia w/relapsing on kick+mod, remove haemophilia AND reduce Spronghai to 100 or 75 ka.
  
• Reconsider ka costs for new Angkhai: 300 - 500 ka and give a 1p - 2p cost for the regen afflictions to prevent tendon spam.
  
• Don't directly touch Sprongk/Ootangk, but rework middle momentum to increase viability. See my later two mo proposals.
  
• No idea what to do with Oriama, but we could consider reworking from scratch for all that I really care.