Janalon2011-11-09 05:55:56
Not sure that any special-interest Nekotai issues could or should make the special envoy report outside of balance adjustments on action penalties. Sojiro would be able to provide us guidance here.
Aside from that, I am not sure about the ka cost of relapsing placed into a kick (theoretically speaking of course). Check the cost of kicks in the other guilds here: http://pastebin.com/PQLDipSM I just don't see it being cheaper than Spronghai. Maybe 200 ka seems more reasonable, but certainly no lower.
Also IF we could swap Spronghai into a kick mod, would there be issues haemophilia doubling with Sprongk's pinched nerve or this theoretical relapsing kick? It is the bleeding and not haemophilia that contributes to a Nekotai bleeding strategy. Give up the affliction and you can reasonably argue to also drop ka cost.
All of Angkhai needs a thorough examination if we are to readjust the numbers. Not really interested in that level of involved thinkign at this time. Oriama just needs to be nuked and rebuilt from scratch. The whole ability is teetering between OP and UP.
EDIT: In rethinking the topic, one purpose of moving relapsing onto a kick is to help post-speed nerf monks help stick Sliced affs in early, mid momentum. With Angknek+Angknek costing 250 ka, a 100 ka relapsing kick would be applied at our current 2mo; 200 ka at the midway 3mo.
Perhaps the most appropriate would be reducing Angknek from 125 to 100 ka (on the basis that the affs don't stick by themselves), and have a 150 ka relapsing. Though, that seems like a ton of number shifting and inter-related envoy reports... assuming this isn't appropriate for special envoy report.
Aside from that, I am not sure about the ka cost of relapsing placed into a kick (theoretically speaking of course). Check the cost of kicks in the other guilds here: http://pastebin.com/PQLDipSM I just don't see it being cheaper than Spronghai. Maybe 200 ka seems more reasonable, but certainly no lower.
Also IF we could swap Spronghai into a kick mod, would there be issues haemophilia doubling with Sprongk's pinched nerve or this theoretical relapsing kick? It is the bleeding and not haemophilia that contributes to a Nekotai bleeding strategy. Give up the affliction and you can reasonably argue to also drop ka cost.
All of Angkhai needs a thorough examination if we are to readjust the numbers. Not really interested in that level of involved thinkign at this time. Oriama just needs to be nuked and rebuilt from scratch. The whole ability is teetering between OP and UP.
EDIT: In rethinking the topic, one purpose of moving relapsing onto a kick is to help post-speed nerf monks help stick Sliced affs in early, mid momentum. With Angknek+Angknek costing 250 ka, a 100 ka relapsing kick would be applied at our current 2mo; 200 ka at the midway 3mo.
Perhaps the most appropriate would be reducing Angknek from 125 to 100 ka (on the basis that the affs don't stick by themselves), and have a 150 ka relapsing. Though, that seems like a ton of number shifting and inter-related envoy reports... assuming this isn't appropriate for special envoy report.
Malarious2011-11-09 18:45:49
This would be a Shuyin question.
Some fast notes:
1) Haemophilia is never a concern, the sanguine cure stops it from being an herb stacker.
2) In that list you gave Shofangi have a 100 ka kick, Tahtetso 125, and Ninjakari 150. Our lowest is 250. I would say 150 is a good num, 100 is your call I havent looked at it thoroughly what that would entail.
3) Angknek being lowered sounds fine, I like 100 ka moves :)
4) As to Angkhai, I would consider either parting slitthroat from it or hard limiting the ability to tendon twice. Even just moving a single tendon to 300 would be pretty game changing. THough I could be overconsidering this because in theory it does not actually do much without alock (which would still have a power cost).
Some fast notes:
1) Haemophilia is never a concern, the sanguine cure stops it from being an herb stacker.
2) In that list you gave Shofangi have a 100 ka kick, Tahtetso 125, and Ninjakari 150. Our lowest is 250. I would say 150 is a good num, 100 is your call I havent looked at it thoroughly what that would entail.
3) Angknek being lowered sounds fine, I like 100 ka moves :)
4) As to Angkhai, I would consider either parting slitthroat from it or hard limiting the ability to tendon twice. Even just moving a single tendon to 300 would be pretty game changing. THough I could be overconsidering this because in theory it does not actually do much without alock (which would still have a power cost).
Janalon2011-11-10 03:30:21
NOTICE: This may be special interest, but I'll gladly wear my bias on my sleeve for this report. I believe there are significant issues with psychometabolism that has existed since the emergence of the skillset three years ago.
The psychometabolism skillset suffers from a lack of ability to properly utilize open channel abilities due to an incongruence between kata and psionics.
Prior to REPORT 494, a monk would assuredly drop a momentum level by using any psionic action. That is, the 3 seconds to regain kata balance in addition to the 4 to 7 seconds would guarantee a time based deflation to momentum.
Now psionic actions sustain momentum… to a point. 3 second sub balance gives 4 seconds to perform a kata action. Any use of a super channel action will regain balance at psi channel re-balance. This prevents monks from using active channel abilities at the risk of momentum deflation… nearly 1/3 of their skillset.
To further discussion on this topic, I've highlighted unusable active channel actions in red, meh skills (neither good nor bad) in yellow, and useful skills in green. See below:
Scan Locate other psionicists in local area.
PsiSense Monitor the room you are in for psychic activity.
*Biofeedback Reduce damage from the elements.
BodyDensity Increase weight psychically to help resist summons.
MindBar Reduce psychic damage.
Shatter Mentally shatter psionic barriers.
Psiblade Damage someone with a burst of psychic energy.
ReadAura Psychically read another's aura and see defenses.
*PortraitReading Hear what is said through enchanted portraits.
EgoWhip Drain someone's ego.
*Psiarmour Reduce cutting and blunt damage.
EgoScan Determine the sense of self worth and ego of others.
Secondsight See things with increased sight.
PsychicPush Push someone out of the room telekinetically.
Amnesia Pinch the thought waves to cause amnesia.
*IronWill Regenerate willpower and ego.
BodyScan See what ailments another has.
*PsychicBlock Block telepathic connections.
AlterAura Psychically remove a specific defense.
Hyperhidrosis Raise your temperature from within to sweat off afflictions.
Gliding You can glide on any surface, even water.
Introspection A more intense and concentrated method of meditation.
Ironskin Toughen the skin to be as hard as iron.
CellAdjustment Heal your body by repairing yourself cell by cell.
EnergyContainment Your nervous system can absorb elemental damage.
*BoneDensity Harden your skeletal structure to resist breaks.
Shift Phase your body to pass through doors and walls.
*Regeneration Regenerate health through force of will.
*DoublePain Your physical touch can cause intense pain.
Mindfield A backlash against those who would attempt to scry you.
*Pheromones Release a scent that few can resist.
BodyFuel Generate power from your body.
Enhancement Enhance either your strength or your dexterity.
*Lifedrain Absorb the health of another through your physical touch.
*ForcedSymmetry Wounds to your limbs are spread evenly.
*Bloodboil Boiling the blood in your veins prevents bleeding.
*BioCurrents Cause electrical damage to rebound on your attackers.
SuspendedAnimation Place your body in a state where nothing can harm it.
Most of psionics is therefore unusable. Yes, you get some DMP defenses early on, but they are all skill-based AND are significantly steeped in the parent pool Discernment. In other words, you need to spend 3k lessons to trans Psionics/Psymet and Discernment to gain full benefit of psymet's resistances.
I've seen several envoy reports that suggested monks be able to use psionics off kata balance. Not a great idea, as there is no need for the combination of three kata actions to be used with three psionic actions concurrently.
There are several other variations on this fix. In one idea, monks could "lock" a channel at 5 power which would confer the ability to use that channel while on eq/bal, but would not block kata actions. A solution such as this would turn three channel psionics into more of a single-ability mechanics like beastmastery.
Anyway, I am looking for ideas about how to resolve this issue... thoughts?
The psychometabolism skillset suffers from a lack of ability to properly utilize open channel abilities due to an incongruence between kata and psionics.
Prior to REPORT 494, a monk would assuredly drop a momentum level by using any psionic action. That is, the 3 seconds to regain kata balance in addition to the 4 to 7 seconds would guarantee a time based deflation to momentum.
Now psionic actions sustain momentum… to a point. 3 second sub balance gives 4 seconds to perform a kata action. Any use of a super channel action will regain balance at psi channel re-balance. This prevents monks from using active channel abilities at the risk of momentum deflation… nearly 1/3 of their skillset.
To further discussion on this topic, I've highlighted unusable active channel actions in red, meh skills (neither good nor bad) in yellow, and useful skills in green. See below:
Scan Locate other psionicists in local area.
PsiSense Monitor the room you are in for psychic activity.
*Biofeedback Reduce damage from the elements.
BodyDensity Increase weight psychically to help resist summons.
MindBar Reduce psychic damage.
Shatter Mentally shatter psionic barriers.
Psiblade Damage someone with a burst of psychic energy.
ReadAura Psychically read another's aura and see defenses.
*PortraitReading Hear what is said through enchanted portraits.
EgoWhip Drain someone's ego.
*Psiarmour Reduce cutting and blunt damage.
EgoScan Determine the sense of self worth and ego of others.
Secondsight See things with increased sight.
PsychicPush Push someone out of the room telekinetically.
Amnesia Pinch the thought waves to cause amnesia.
*IronWill Regenerate willpower and ego.
BodyScan See what ailments another has.
*PsychicBlock Block telepathic connections.
AlterAura Psychically remove a specific defense.
Hyperhidrosis Raise your temperature from within to sweat off afflictions.
Gliding You can glide on any surface, even water.
Introspection A more intense and concentrated method of meditation.
Ironskin Toughen the skin to be as hard as iron.
CellAdjustment Heal your body by repairing yourself cell by cell.
EnergyContainment Your nervous system can absorb elemental damage.
*BoneDensity Harden your skeletal structure to resist breaks.
Shift Phase your body to pass through doors and walls.
*Regeneration Regenerate health through force of will.
*DoublePain Your physical touch can cause intense pain.
Mindfield A backlash against those who would attempt to scry you.
*Pheromones Release a scent that few can resist.
BodyFuel Generate power from your body.
Enhancement Enhance either your strength or your dexterity.
*Lifedrain Absorb the health of another through your physical touch.
*ForcedSymmetry Wounds to your limbs are spread evenly.
*Bloodboil Boiling the blood in your veins prevents bleeding.
*BioCurrents Cause electrical damage to rebound on your attackers.
SuspendedAnimation Place your body in a state where nothing can harm it.
Most of psionics is therefore unusable. Yes, you get some DMP defenses early on, but they are all skill-based AND are significantly steeped in the parent pool Discernment. In other words, you need to spend 3k lessons to trans Psionics/Psymet and Discernment to gain full benefit of psymet's resistances.
I've seen several envoy reports that suggested monks be able to use psionics off kata balance. Not a great idea, as there is no need for the combination of three kata actions to be used with three psionic actions concurrently.
There are several other variations on this fix. In one idea, monks could "lock" a channel at 5 power which would confer the ability to use that channel while on eq/bal, but would not block kata actions. A solution such as this would turn three channel psionics into more of a single-ability mechanics like beastmastery.
Anyway, I am looking for ideas about how to resolve this issue... thoughts?
Saqa2011-11-10 11:52:42
I have to say, I'm not really enthused by the Kata changes so far. A few convenience things would be nice (yes please to anything to reduce the amount of redundant forms I have to keep), but the actual balancing suggestions are quite 'meh'. More levels of momentum (or fiddling with the current ka values) is probably a good idea on its own merits, but does little to actually fix anything much (a 5mo/8mo/whatever-mo monk is still going to wreak destruction if you let them get that high, and if not they're going to be impotent in comparison); the more substantive changes to momentum loss and power use suggested would need ability-by-ability balancing (at least for Tahtetso, to keep the insta from being impossible), which I'm under the impression that Shuyin wants to avoid.
RE a post by Malarious on the previous page: in testing, I could never get the +affliction modifiers (rakto, rakti'ini, bomolini, gahtiah'sho) to proc off non-tahto attacks. That is, I couldn't combine an affliction strike with afflicting modifiers.
RE a post by Malarious on the previous page: in testing, I could never get the +affliction modifiers (rakto, rakti'ini, bomolini, gahtiah'sho) to proc off non-tahto attacks. That is, I couldn't combine an affliction strike with afflicting modifiers.
Janalon2011-11-10 12:50:32
@Saqa, do this.
- Forum search for the word MONK
- Topic search MONK in the following threads:
- STATE OF LUSTERNIA
- THINGS TO IMPROVE IN LUSTERNIA
- SPECIAL REPORT - CULLING IDEAS
I've done this several dozen times. There you go. All of the monk discussion that led up to them being selected for Special Report. People "think" monks are a problem, but can't put their finger on why. There is no narrow definition of topic... by anyone (myself included).
Additionally you have extremely limited participation in defining the problem and offering solutions. A few people have made a one-post suggestion. Most of the thread is carried by Malarious, Sahmiam, and myself. So now you have a very limited perspective about possible fixes.
Most non-monks don't understand monk mechanics. I have a very strong sense of this reading through comments left on my Envoy reports. In fact, the more specific you are with supporting evidence, the less conversation there is. This is just a shallow speculation on the basis that my reports. Even Sojiro doesn't have a large presence in this thread (no knock to him).
Most of my participation was to bring up every conceivable topic to see if I could evoke some form of conversation. Some of my ideas repair what was broken by a series of subsequent nerfs. Nothing major. Though, moving far and fast doesn't seem appropriate with lack of enthusiasm, participation, and facts.
So when you say, "I'm not really enthused by the Kata changes so far," I really don't know what to think. Do these ideas go too far? Not far enough? If you can better define problems and brainstorm solutions... I am all ears. Perhaps you can do better.
Malarious2011-11-12 02:07:40
Saqa:
RE a post by Malarious on the previous page: in testing, I could never get the +affliction modifiers (rakto, rakti'ini, bomolini, gahtiah'sho) to proc off non-tahto attacks. That is, I couldn't combine an affliction strike with afflicting modifiers.
Get wounds on them before testing. Many of tahtetsos mods are based on wounding levels, which is part of why you get the tahtetso wound mod.
Malarious2011-11-14 04:31:22
What skill is of value that you would forgo the rest of your psymet to be able to use it during kata forms?
Beasts are far more valuable than any skill in psychometabolism.
Much more comin later
Beasts are far more valuable than any skill in psychometabolism.
Much more comin later
Janalon2011-11-14 11:28:42
Malarious:
What skill is of value that you would forgo the rest of your psymet to be able to use it during kata forms?
Beasts are far more valuable than any skill in psychometabolism.
Much more comin later
Hrm. Yeah, I can now see that I need to reword to improve clarity. I didn't envision giving up the entire psymset skill set. Rather I thought you would lock two channels AND THEN lock in accelerate. Same thing in reverse when it came time to unlock.
I put this stipulation in there to prevent any anticipated "abuses" or unintended effects. Though, making accelerate compete against beastmastery would achieve that balance.
Beasts are far more valuable. Hands down. The benefit of a CellAdjust isn't equivalent to Beast Healing when you compare the 1k personal ego versus the beasts 500 mana. Though, Beast healing balances on an 8s timer and CellAdjust on a 4s timer.
You only save 2s on a PsychicPush compared to Beast Gust. Although the former can be blocked with resistances, you don't know who moved AND it would save a considerable amount of trains on the beast.
Again, you could make very similar side-by-side comparisons with Psymet Amnesia and Beast AmnesiaCloud.
But I think the take away value is that allowing Psymets to use psionics on a balance that competes with Beastmastery is not OP. In fact, it might be UP... though I want access to 1/3 of my skillset, and that is what drives this conversation.
Malarious2011-11-15 22:48:06
Ok time to get the blood flowin in the idea train! I took your suggestions and adjusted as needed or left it exactly as typed, you will have to review to figure which!
Other changes:
- Change mo loss from changing target to only allow you to be dropped to the 350 ka level or above.
- Reduce harmony regens.
- Change the power mods to be 1p per LANDED hit not 3 outright.
- Add an "arms" and "legs" syntax to randomize the target area.
- Make previously mentioned changes for the other guilds.
The quick noted versions :)
- Kaife becomes a 250 ka kick.
- Spronghai becomes a 150 ka kick modifier
- Create a 150 ka kick that causes relapsing.
- Remove relapsing from Angkhai
- Place Slitthroat in its own skill, make it 300 ka with a 3p cost. This is because tendons being lowered was considered bad. This cost would not stack if boost was used (aka it would be 5p to use the form not 5 + 3).
- Adjust momentum levels to allow for more diversity and slightly slower build rates.
- Increase Oriama's ka cost to 725, this makes it require mo 5 to be used. This is a heavy nerf but I feel it is warranted.
- Reduce finalsting to 800 ka but still require mo 6. This would open a slitthroat with it and one other hand action (with tendon still at 550 you cannot hardlock with finalsting).
Other changes:
- Change mo loss from changing target to only allow you to be dropped to the 350 ka level or above.
- Reduce harmony regens.
- Change the power mods to be 1p per LANDED hit not 3 outright.
- Add an "arms" and "legs" syntax to randomize the target area.
- Make previously mentioned changes for the other guilds.
The quick noted versions :)
Binjo2011-11-16 08:42:33
Guys we're going to put Shuyin into a coma.
I'll comment on the bits that call out to me. We haven't figured out if this is in the scope of the report but I thought I'd reply to Malarious' comments about my guild.
I'm all for adding a power cost to the slit. Another idea I was playing around with was adding a really expensive (power/momentum/mabe require boost) head grapple that stopped eating and drinking. This would be much more reliable than our current slits but we'd no longer power drain people to death, and if the costs were appropriate it would not be spammable (especially if it required boost). Could also introduce (yet another) weapon grapple that targets the head and have shred cause slit throat which is a pretty direct nerf as it would only allow us to softlock.
We talked about what to do with the shofangi skills and I haven't come up with much overall. I disagree with your assessment that shofangi are salve focused, it appears that's how they've been played for the majority of their existance but I focus on herbs and seem to do better with that.
In terms of the active abilities in psionics that Janalon has been bringing up, I don't think this is really a great concern. Something would have to be incredibly overpowered for me to use it over the locked abilities like pheromones and regeneration. Allowing super/sub to be used with kata forms would allow you to egowhip someone every 6s which would be good for harmony monks to setup their insta but seems like a bit much. Other than ego whipping and maybe creative uses of alteraura the other options you'd have by allowing that would be pretty underwhelming.
I'll comment on the bits that call out to me. We haven't figured out if this is in the scope of the report but I thought I'd reply to Malarious' comments about my guild.
Malarious:
Shofangi. The lords of the greenlock spam! I kid I kid... sort of. Shofangi have the most reliable lock for the cost, their only current cost is -mo and with readily available cracked limbs without penalty they tend to have an easy time of it. That said Shofangi also seem to suffer from underskilling, that is they seem to have alot of skills but most of their skills can only hit one area while other guilds can hit several. Their insta has been upgraded to be considerably more viable. Shofangi have a salve focus.
As a note I would like to see some skills added to this set. They have 4 seperate grapples which all target different areas and 5 enders if you include the ender that throws a person (kutamo). Open to ideas on this.
+ Introduce a cost of 3p on the use of Butojo (slit throat). This cost should not apply when it causes a mangled tongue.
+ Cracked limbs have been left as the change to Butojo should address the primary issue of their offense. If needed we can adjust this but I would like to add new skills at the same time to prevent having an 80% mo loss skillset.
I'm all for adding a power cost to the slit. Another idea I was playing around with was adding a really expensive (power/momentum/mabe require boost) head grapple that stopped eating and drinking. This would be much more reliable than our current slits but we'd no longer power drain people to death, and if the costs were appropriate it would not be spammable (especially if it required boost). Could also introduce (yet another) weapon grapple that targets the head and have shred cause slit throat which is a pretty direct nerf as it would only allow us to softlock.
We talked about what to do with the shofangi skills and I haven't come up with much overall. I disagree with your assessment that shofangi are salve focused, it appears that's how they've been played for the majority of their existance but I focus on herbs and seem to do better with that.
In terms of the active abilities in psionics that Janalon has been bringing up, I don't think this is really a great concern. Something would have to be incredibly overpowered for me to use it over the locked abilities like pheromones and regeneration. Allowing super/sub to be used with kata forms would allow you to egowhip someone every 6s which would be good for harmony monks to setup their insta but seems like a bit much. Other than ego whipping and maybe creative uses of alteraura the other options you'd have by allowing that would be pretty underwhelming.
Janalon2011-11-16 11:36:17
Binjo:
In terms of the active abilities in psionics that Janalon has been bringing up, I don't think this is really a great concern. Something would have to be incredibly overpowered for me to use it over the locked abilities like pheromones and regeneration. Allowing super/sub to be used with kata forms would allow you to egowhip someone every 6s which would be good for harmony monks to setup their insta but seems like a bit much. Other than ego whipping and maybe creative uses of alteraura the other options you'd have by allowing that would be pretty underwhelming.
It's great enough of a concern to be mentioned in three Envoy reports over a long span of time. Interesting... because Malarious was trying to explain to me how this would be OP. Guess there is a difference of opinion there.
As I see it, the sub channel would be used every other form and super channel every third form (roughly the same pacing as Beastmastery) IF you are balance chasing. Otherwise waiting for that next second for a psi channel to opens potentially means the opponent can cure out of another affliction.
I see it opening a fair amount of options, such as the EgoWhip > Harmony Inta. The whole BodyScan would be immensely useful to affliction classes. At the very least, it would give the opportunity for 1/3 of the skillset to have some form of application in monk combat.
I wouldn't worry about Shuyin. This is the job he volunteered for. Now's the time to raise any concerns about monks. It seems silly to not brainstorm and lay all issues out on the table when there is a special report in effect. Besides, he could have intervened at any point to help narrow the scope of the report.
Binjo2011-11-16 18:05:45
The existence of a report does not prove the existence of a problem. I'm not saying things like not losing momentum on psionic action was a bad change but overall I think psymet is fine. The defenses it offers are incredibly powerful, and to come up with something active that would compete with that would pretty much have to be overpowered. I'm confused by your timing. Sub is about 1s slower than a form with speed modifier and about the same speed as one without, so that's slightly less than every form. Super is 6s which is every other form. Also keep in mind that there is psiblade which doesn't do a lot of damage but when you're talking about adding even 600 damage every other form that's a rather large buff.
I guess my question is why do we need something other than locked defenses? If it's because of wasted skills well, everyone has skills that they never use. Mages themselves have many skills in psionics that they never use. I guess I just don't understand the fundamental issue.
I guess my question is why do we need something other than locked defenses? If it's because of wasted skills well, everyone has skills that they never use. Mages themselves have many skills in psionics that they never use. I guess I just don't understand the fundamental issue.
Malarious2011-11-16 20:57:23
I think psionics would be extreme if it could be done with kata because of the following examples:
- Psiblade, pure damage of the psychic type
- Alteraura insomnia then double morphite, true sleep.
- Bodyscan to check affs during locks
- Psychicpush out insta killers without any real cost to yourself
- Psychicblock as you attack to shut down tells.
- Alteraura sixth sense (which causes blindness) to stack herb affs
Those are just examples!
Anyway, grapple that stops sipping/eating is a god no >_< That would be horrible. I am more a fun of shred on head causing slitthroat, but if you prone ahead of time you can stomp to cause broken leg (prone + broken leg + slit with senso is a lock!). So I actually like that shred idea.
3p or change to grapple ender, either or seems like it would work. Salve is the primary focus imo because you have "support" for it with shoflai. When you can rob a cure balance thats when you have a focus on it. Nekotai do this for any curing of their choice, so their focus is cure hindering as that is their focus.
- Psiblade, pure damage of the psychic type
- Alteraura insomnia then double morphite, true sleep.
- Bodyscan to check affs during locks
- Psychicpush out insta killers without any real cost to yourself
- Psychicblock as you attack to shut down tells.
- Alteraura sixth sense (which causes blindness) to stack herb affs
Those are just examples!
Anyway, grapple that stops sipping/eating is a god no >_< That would be horrible. I am more a fun of shred on head causing slitthroat, but if you prone ahead of time you can stomp to cause broken leg (prone + broken leg + slit with senso is a lock!). So I actually like that shred idea.
3p or change to grapple ender, either or seems like it would work. Salve is the primary focus imo because you have "support" for it with shoflai. When you can rob a cure balance thats when you have a focus on it. Nekotai do this for any curing of their choice, so their focus is cure hindering as that is their focus.
Janalon2011-11-17 11:52:23
I don't think the core issue is about "throw away" skills. Every skillset has them. You need some basic or lackuster skills to crescendo upwards to the amazing trans abilities. In my mind, I see the psionics/psymet issue a singular, but manifesting itself in a variety of ways. Essentially looking at the value gained per lesson investment.
Consider the following: Monks gain little to no use out of any ability in the entire psionics skillset... mainly due to that incongruence between kata and the active abilities. You need to master the skill before getting anything of value. Coincidentally psymets have no actionable abilities, especially in the "offense" department. Our only offense is passive defenses. I would use several of the psionic open channel abilities as a singular action if they didn't have the large psi channel balance time that is specifically calibrated for multi-chanel use. Psionic & psymet DMP skills & Doublepain requires a heavy investment in Discernment to gain full value due to "mutual" skill points. It's not like Discernment is one of those skillsets anyone would trans earlier on the way to achieving omni-trans. Yes, psymet do have a handful of useful defenses, but they are entirely strip-able via disruption scroll. Due to these reasons, I believe pursuing a solution is warranted.
Although it might be an interesting analysis, I won't bother with the point-by-point comparison between acrobatics and psymet as you climb up the skill ladder. Needless to say, you gain a TON of benefit from acro even before you hit master... not to mention they don't suffer from "skill based" gradations for skill effect. Borrowing from the idea of Placeus, it seems reasonable to fix this issue with Psymet to make it a valued alternative to acrobatics.
Onto my previously stated idea. I have to say that I agree with everything Malarious and Binjo have said about my idea. You guys are correct in your assessment of how Psymet Accelerate would be way OP. The idea is faulted, but I am also willing to tweak the idea to refine the solution. Consider the following:
Essentially a 2 - 3 second equilibrium loss for a single psi action that would prevent you from also using kata abilities. (I forget the common eq timer off hand). This would reduce the 4s and 6s pricetags on many of the psi skills in exchange for using them as a single ability. In my mind, that would put these actions more on par from what use you might get out of low/high magic and discernment. Does this seem a more balanced idea?
EDIT: In addendum to the stated problem, I would argue that psymet was built around the idea of locking two channels while leaving the third open for an actionable ability. Just look at SuspendedAnimation, Shift, and CellAdjustment (and possibly BodyFuel... though it is used in defup an not in hunting/combat). The idea of being able to utilized channeled abilities is threaded from psionics through psymet.
Consider the following: Monks gain little to no use out of any ability in the entire psionics skillset... mainly due to that incongruence between kata and the active abilities. You need to master the skill before getting anything of value. Coincidentally psymets have no actionable abilities, especially in the "offense" department. Our only offense is passive defenses. I would use several of the psionic open channel abilities as a singular action if they didn't have the large psi channel balance time that is specifically calibrated for multi-chanel use. Psionic & psymet DMP skills & Doublepain requires a heavy investment in Discernment to gain full value due to "mutual" skill points. It's not like Discernment is one of those skillsets anyone would trans earlier on the way to achieving omni-trans. Yes, psymet do have a handful of useful defenses, but they are entirely strip-able via disruption scroll. Due to these reasons, I believe pursuing a solution is warranted.
Although it might be an interesting analysis, I won't bother with the point-by-point comparison between acrobatics and psymet as you climb up the skill ladder. Needless to say, you gain a TON of benefit from acro even before you hit master... not to mention they don't suffer from "skill based" gradations for skill effect. Borrowing from the idea of Placeus, it seems reasonable to fix this issue with Psymet to make it a valued alternative to acrobatics.
Onto my previously stated idea. I have to say that I agree with everything Malarious and Binjo have said about my idea. You guys are correct in your assessment of how Psymet Accelerate would be way OP. The idea is faulted, but I am also willing to tweak the idea to refine the solution. Consider the following:
PSYCHOMETABOLISM - ACCELERATE
Syntax: PSIACCELERATE
Channels: Substratus, Superstratus
By intensely focusing on a single psionic channel, monks are able to utilize any singular sub or super ability through equilibrium loss.
Essentially a 2 - 3 second equilibrium loss for a single psi action that would prevent you from also using kata abilities. (I forget the common eq timer off hand). This would reduce the 4s and 6s pricetags on many of the psi skills in exchange for using them as a single ability. In my mind, that would put these actions more on par from what use you might get out of low/high magic and discernment. Does this seem a more balanced idea?
EDIT: In addendum to the stated problem, I would argue that psymet was built around the idea of locking two channels while leaving the third open for an actionable ability. Just look at SuspendedAnimation, Shift, and CellAdjustment (and possibly BodyFuel... though it is used in defup an not in hunting/combat). The idea of being able to utilized channeled abilities is threaded from psionics through psymet.
Janalon2011-11-17 22:07:16
Placeus:
The evil we have now is the ease with which a monk can reach dangerous momentum levels with strong, low ka cost hindering. Various grapples' ability to bypass rebounding, parry and stance mean the monk can easily get past defences which were designed to slow down melee classes.
What I propose is reducing the ease of using grapples to hinder and build momentum which will force monks to use actions that have a risk of hitting rebounding, stance and parry. This rewards a fighter who is able to properly time their rebounding and set their parry and stance.
Placeus:
Perhaps I didn't make my earlier point clear enough. My problem with grapples is that they combine hindering with a means of gaining momentum that can bypass parry/stance/rebounding. You are correct that ppk will bypass these things too, but someone can just walk away from a monk using ppk.
I think you are also overlooking the effect of the steelgrip mod when used on a grapple which targets a stanced (possibly parried for weapon grapples as well, can't remember) body part.
I've been thinking more and more about this issue. Simply stated, the problem is that grapples HINDER and GAIN MOMENTUM. It appears you would like to parse out the two... make them mutually exclusive. Since we can't take hindering out of grapples, that leaves me to consider the momentum issue: grapple spam as a momentum gaining sequence.
What if we were to outright remove momentum gain? Now I don't mean increase ka cost OR add momentum loss to grapples. Doesn't make sense. But how about stipulating that grapple forms won't GAIN momentum. I.E. stay at the same momentum if a grapple is applied.
THEN you would de-incentivize grapples being used in early momentum AND address grapple > grapple ender spam (especially where the grapple ender causes momentum loss... leaving the combo to a spammable). I wonder what implications this would have for potential problems, such as the Oriama loop lock mentioned by Malarious.
Of course you would have to have a case-by-case review to make sure such a penalty doesn't cripple a guild such as NInjakari which is so reliant on grapples. But at the very least it could be set to the vanilla kata grapple.
EDIT: Not saying this is a preferable solution... only a plausible solution.
Malarious2011-11-18 03:16:15
What skill is worth using for 2-3s of equilibrium? Most monks need to press every second of balance, stopping to give people cure time is a no no.
Changing grapples is just a bad idea in my opinion, I even use throw and toss for special purposes and those rely on the hold gaining momentum.
Changing grapples is just a bad idea in my opinion, I even use throw and toss for special purposes and those rely on the hold gaining momentum.
Janalon2011-11-18 03:53:43
My "BeastBalance" Accelerate idea is OP, and the 2-3s eq Accelerate is UP? So what, 1s balance is the golden number? No. There are skills I'd use on a 2-3s balance (under the right circumstances).
PsiBlade is a much lower on the skill tree compared to Violet/Kether AND is psionic (rather than magical). Shift at 2s to 3s is a bargain. Although situationaly useful (compared to Beast Gust), I'd be interested to have PsychicPush. Actually, you could Beast Gust/PsychicPush back-to-back to swipe two targets from the room. AlterAura Waterwalking/breathing could potentially have interesting consequences under certain circumstances.
Maybe 2-3s Accelerate not so much 1v1, but more so in groups where a psymet might fill a certain role (esp in situations where monks struggle to gain momentum). I don't think the objective is to make the skill very powerful, just enough to make psionics plausible.
PsiBlade is a much lower on the skill tree compared to Violet/Kether AND is psionic (rather than magical). Shift at 2s to 3s is a bargain. Although situationaly useful (compared to Beast Gust), I'd be interested to have PsychicPush. Actually, you could Beast Gust/PsychicPush back-to-back to swipe two targets from the room. AlterAura Waterwalking/breathing could potentially have interesting consequences under certain circumstances.
Maybe 2-3s Accelerate not so much 1v1, but more so in groups where a psymet might fill a certain role (esp in situations where monks struggle to gain momentum). I don't think the objective is to make the skill very powerful, just enough to make psionics plausible.
Malarious2011-12-02 10:10:50
Summary coming soon.
Changing to only mechanical, aka non guild specific. Rest will be envoyed.
Changing to only mechanical, aka non guild specific. Rest will be envoyed.
Janalon2011-12-02 11:03:04
Malarious:
Summary coming soon.
Changing to only mechanical, aka non guild specific. Rest will be envoyed.
Did you get an idea what aspects of mechanical there was a particular interest to tweak?
