Janalon:

@Saqa, do this.

• Forum search for the word MONK
  
• Topic search MONK in the following threads:
  


• STATE OF LUSTERNIA
  
• THINGS TO IMPROVE IN LUSTERNIA
  
• SPECIAL REPORT - CULLING IDEAS
  


I've done this several dozen times. There you go. All of the monk discussion that led up to them being selected for Special Report. People "think" monks are a problem, but can't put their finger on why. There is no narrow definition of topic... by anyone (myself included).



Additionally you have extremely limited participation in defining the problem and offering solutions. A few people have made a one-post suggestion. Most of the thread is carried by Malarious, Sahmiam, and myself. So now you have a very limited perspective about possible fixes.

Most non-monks don't understand monk mechanics. I have a very strong sense of this reading through comments left on my Envoy reports. In fact, the more specific you are with supporting evidence, the less conversation there is. This is just a shallow speculation on the basis that my reports. Even Sojiro doesn't have a large presence in this thread (no knock to him).

Most of my participation was to bring up every conceivable topic to see if I could evoke some form of conversation. Some of my ideas repair what was broken by a series of subsequent nerfs. Nothing major. Though, moving far and fast doesn't seem appropriate with lack of enthusiasm, participation, and facts.

So when you say, "I'm not really enthused by the Kata changes so far," I really don't know what to think. Do these ideas go too far? Not far enough? If you can better define problems and brainstorm solutions... I am all ears. Perhaps you can do better.

Not to be a little bit of a necro, but in a lot of ways I was "Poo-pood" out of this thread by the other participants - and rightfully so, I don't know anything. I'm not complaining or being sarcastic, I'm just laying out why there's no participation:
A.) You are absolutely right, Non-monks don't seem to have much understanding of monk mechanics
B.) This is the kicker perhaps, Where are all the demi/ascendant monks that are omni-trans at? The game is essentially balanced around those two factors, so I have been told. I'm certainly not it. 95% of the monk population is not it. We're not envoys, at least 50% of that population don't do this kind of testing, and those that do mostly "aren't really doing it right" because they're on the bottom of the barrel from the balancing perspective.

Just saying.

I've got a pretty decent handle on how monks work, I've played as (though not as omnitrans demigod) and against them enough. What I don't have is any idea of how to fix their problems (both their OP and UP issues) without screwing things totally up, or asking for a mechanics overhaul, which probably won't happen. So... I (and probably other people) plan to read over any summaries that arise from this thread and consider those, I just won't be on the ground floor helping pump out the ideas, that's best left to the 'engineers'.

I'm a demi monk, but certainly far from omni-trans. WHO are the demi omni-trans monks anyway? Sahmiam. Malarious. Not sure I could name any others.

There's also a monk envoy issue. I've been fairly steady over the past year. Not sure when Wobou came on board, but he is very consistent. Lots of turnover and inactivity with Tahtetso/Ninjakari envoys as of late.

Not saying an Envoy must introduce new reports every cycle, but at least someone who is prepared to comment on other reports.

All right, I'll go and read these novels and try to offer guidance, but I admit that it may be limited.

Generally speaking though, I'd rather put forth suggestions that all monk specs could benefit from (general adjustments), then leave the skill/ka/etc adjustments to special reports or envoys.

Sojiro:

All right, I'll go and read these novels and try to offer guidance, but I admit that it may be limited.

Generally speaking though, I'd rather put forth suggestions that all monk specs could benefit from (general adjustments), then leave the skill/ka/etc adjustments to special reports or envoys.

Sounds very reasonable. Thank you for your time and consideration!

Ok, given we should not be using guild specific changes.. heres a rough list. I may have missed things and I have added things that have come up over time.

REMOVE:
* The increased balance loss for failed chains. Main current use of chain: perform . Punishing someone for trying to use this seems bad practice.

ADD:
* KATA PERFORM MOMENTUM With it picking the highest it can by default. It should be SMART enough to know if you are changing targets.

* Allow the target area to be arms, or legs, where the system randomly picks a side. (Is this useful to anyone?)

CHANGES:
* Changing targets should cap what momentum it can drop you to. I suggest mo 2, which is the first point of general deviation with current levels1.

* Make lunge mods cost 1p per limb that hits. If your wepaons both miss but kick hits that should be 1p not 3 as current. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.

* Make grapples slightly faster, perhaps limiting other factors on recovery. A monk with a total speed of 220 should be able to pull their ender.


DISCUSSION NEEDED:

* Along with the grapple change perhaps make speed no longer effect grapples but also make grapples assume they already have them. Racial speed is more optional if it should still be in effect, but grapples should be usable if you have NO penalties and proper weapons at the minimum.

* Do we need more momentum levels or was that a perceived issue? Looking for facts to back the assumption we need more levels. I am not generally opposed to it but would like to know why it is needed so we know how many more would be needed.


1 Momentum 2 is generally the point where people switch from using grapples, and for bashing is the point where you begin using the speed modifier.


Any thoughts on the above welcome, thats alot of changes. I am assuming we will want to clip some of those but first wanted some yays and nays to specific changes if possible. The idea to add power cost to all regen affs was removed because not all affs are the same, and in some cases this breaks other mechanics in play.

In an effort to move things along, some people gave me feedback but its been over a week and they have no posted it so I will do so. Changes in bold. Removed items are not noted.

Malarious:

REMOVE:
* The increased balance loss for failed chains. Main current use of chain: perform . Punishing someone for trying to use this seems bad practice.

ADD:
* KATA PERFORM MOMENTUM With it picking the highest it can by default. It should be SMART enough to know if you are changing targets.

* Allow the target area to be arms, or legs, where the system randomly picks a side. (Is this useful to anyone?)

CHANGES:
* Changing targets should cap what momentum it can drop you to. I suggest mo 2, which is the first point of general deviation with current levels1.

* Make lunge mods cost 1 power less per missed area. This way you do not get two action forms costing less than 3.

* Change grapples/writhing. A human with max speed -using the speed modifier- should have a minimum window of 0.25s to use their ender before a writhe out. If needed remove the random factor in writhing to make this a reliable window.


DISCUSSION NEEDED:

* Do we need more momentum levels or was that a perceived issue? Looking for facts to back the assumption we need more levels. I am not generally opposed to it but would like to know why it is needed so we know how many more would be needed.


1 Momentum 2 is generally the point where people switch from using grapples, and for bashing is the point where you begin using the speed modifier.

As always, thoughts, ideas, etc etc etc.

Is there a reason why the -2mo penalty is required during bashing?

Raeri:

Is there a reason why the -2mo penalty is required during bashing?

I always assumed it was so you could use the same block of code for everything instead of splitting it off and complicating things.

Sylphas:


I always assumed it was so you could use the same block of code for everything instead of splitting it off and complicating things.

What Sylphas said. I assumed it was for ease.

Hi,

I'm being urged to get this report done, so I'm going to start putting up preliminary suggestions for this part of the report now. I intend to submit the entire report by the end of next week at the latest. I'm making these suggestions after reading this amazingly ginormous thread, and then trying my best to process it. I am fairly positive that this part of the report will be comparatively weaker compared to the druid/warrior parts, and for that, I have to apologize. I just don't have the mechanical knowledge to fairly assess monks from an insider's perspective, give their complexity.

So, without further adieu:

Monks:

-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2 (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless).


-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati)cost 1p per limb that hits. Ex: If your weapons both miss but the kick hits, that should be 1p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.

-Remove the increased balance loss from failing kata chains.

-Standardize grapple length and recovery. Do not take weapon/race stats into account. At low momentum levels, grapple recovery should be longer than the time it takes to writhe, with momentum levels at or above 3 surpassing this.

-Add power costs to specific skills in each monk spec. To be discussed.

I know that I'm probably missing some important monk issues, so this is where I ask Janalon, Malarious, Wobou, Sahmiam, and whoever else to chime in with their suggestions (not exactly skill-specific please!) once more, so we can get some substantial changes out.

Specifically, I'd like more discussion regarding the grapple proposal as well. I acknowledge the problem, but I admit I'm not sure where the sweet spot when we're trying to fix that problem. If it's a problem at all.

Furthermore, I might be missing some other specific nuances regarding momentum loss when changing/missing targets, so if I'm missing something there, feel free to chime in.

Lastly, I've read that some skills in each spec may need a power cost to balance them out further. Which are they? If any? I've heard a lot of things about the greenlock from guilds, and so on, so is that still a problem?

TL;DR - This needs discussion:

1. Grapples
2. Other facets to changing/missing targets
3. Adding power costs on certain monk skills

What else am I missing?

Change the lunge mod to be 1p less per missed limb. This way its not 1p to use only a kick or something with it, should be 3p unless something misses.

Specific skills are primarily aimed at shofangi greenlock and.... my brains kind of dead but I am sure someone else can fill in other things as needed (maybe tahtetso cracked something spam? iunno).

GRAPPLE

The problem with grapples is we got solution 4'd (well 2'd):

Solution #1: Place a balance time cap of 2.4 seconds on all monk actions. Doing so does not negatively impact the slow monks while reducing the effective speeds of those that are simply too fast. This cap should only apply to the kata-specific skillsets and not be affected by such things as hyperactive or shrine effects.

What we got was a major change to the speed formula which was heavier handed than desired, we wanted a scalpel we got a hammer. This had a huge impact on grapples and was adjusted twice further to try to make grapples fitting. They need to be fast enough that for instance a human using speed mod (as all races generally need) should have a small window to use a grapple ender, but divorcing from weapon stats was desired so we didnt have aslaran max speed ninja tendoning every other form with 2.2s forms or something. I do not have the numbers in front of me of what that would make the writhe.

MOMENTUM STUFF

I have bugged how KATA PERFORM behaves where we lose momentum when there is no target. I wanted to get this cleaned up to avoid needless penalties for one. Dropping momentum from targets should not move you below mo2 to clarify what I meant as well. Other stuff from my quote a few posts up we are envoying as general improvements.

In regards to removing balance loss increase when forms fail, this is from older times but the idea is if you do kata perform @target you should not be punished, it should just be a nice method to avoid wasting time server side. If the chain fails you take no balance loss (it wont check till next form) and can continue as normal.


TATTOOS

This may be arguable but I would consider changing the effect of trans tattoos to give less/no buff and instead allow extra weight or something along the lines of TATTOO MEDITATE along the lines of "Sometimes the greatest use of ka power is the ability to harness a tattoo imprinted on the mind". This may seem out of the park but a minor reduction in armor (I said minor, I dont mean -20/-20) in exchange for say 100 or 200 weight of mystery tattoo might be nice. Ideally aiming at say 72/72 (good splendours) thats -12/-12 (which is all trans does right now is give +armor) and get some DMP/interference/power/etc instead.

That last one probably needs alot of feedback, it is also partly based on the warrior report which I am not sure how that is looking.

(as per request) tl;dr

- The lunge mods should be 3p and cost 1 less for each missed hit, or never miss.
- Add power cost to specific skills.
- Make grapples faster for base speed races but do not make them faster than current for aslaran/faeling/etc.
- You should only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target.
- Changing target should not be able to drop you below momentum lvl 2
- Remove momentum loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails.
- Based on warrior report and its effect on armor..... change the base effect of master tattoos to allow 100 "mental tattoo" weight or something like that. (Max tat armor would be 72/72 or 74/74ish).

Janalon:

I'm a demi monk, but certainly far from omni-trans. WHO are the demi omni-trans monks anyway? Sahmiam. Malarious. Not sure I could name any others.

There's also a monk envoy issue. I've been fairly steady over the past year. Not sure when Wobou came on board, but he is very consistent. Lots of turnover and inactivity with Tahtetso/Ninjakari envoys as of late.

Not saying an Envoy must introduce new reports every cycle, but at least someone who is prepared to comment on other reports.

But but I'm also omni-trans.. *sniff* (well nearly, who needs dramatics?)

No offense to the envoys in question but I actually think an envoy should submit a report every cycle. It's about 5 minutes of work and there are so many small non-controversial changes that can be sought.

Anyway on to business:

My main issue with grapples is how they work with various sorts balance bonuses. I myself need a random stun or latency luck to pull off an ender as a lobo. From what I've seen of my aslaran counterparts this isn't the case. We need to pick some sort of level to center around and then reduce the variance from that center point. So let's say that we wanted monks unhindered to get their enders off 50% of the time with correct writhing, an aslaran shouldn't get more than about a 50% rate, I suspect right now if it were plotted that the rate jump would be huge. Celina also showed me once that you can spam lock arm quicker than non balance bonus/contort people can writhe it which is a near total lockout for people who need their arms to attack, but I need to double check if this was partially due to my curing reseting the writhe timer. That's a vary specific thing that could be targeted with an envoy report though.

In terms of skills: I'm fine with adding a 3p cost to shofangi butojo (1p if using skive/boost?). Tahtetso should be looked at but it's not as simple as adding a power cost to one ability as dealing with shofangi greenspam is and I can't think of a good suggestion that would deal with the problem and not dismantle their offense.

I agree with the majority of Malarious' tl;dr list. I still think that forcing monks to make choices about whether to chase or not in a group setting to maintain momentum is a valid weakness, although I suppose if you were at 5mo his change would still cause that.

Most of the time envoys dont post they are either entirely not here, or are waiting on a priority report. If they didnt have an immediate idea they ask other envoys/consultants for feedback.

In regards to grapples.. EXACTLY. We should not need lag to get an ender, but an aslaran should not be insanely quick at it. It should be faster but maybe not the whole version of its bonus. Grapples should work 100% of the time if you arent hindered and use speed mod with at least max speed weapons. Perhaps make kata perform give a small bonus balance if you use a grapple and ender at the same time (you tell it you are commited it helps get the ender off kind of thing).

Spamming grapples doesnt work, the failsafe takes effect.:
- You grapple
- They start writhe
- You grapple again
- The timer on writhe finishes and escapes the new grapple

Shofangi: 3p, 2p if skiving. No idea about the shattered limbs, I am teetering on any changes to that.

I am not bothered by losing momentum, I am bothered by losing it without hitting anything. Target is dead, gone, etc you shouldnt pay. Thats like losing power when you spam a tendon maneuver with lunge (like when chasing). Want it to require you did something to lose the momentum.The momentum cap is to avoid having grapples for 98% of group combat, as if you go below mo2 most will be grappling again.

All right, can you guys figure out specific numbers as far as how you want grapples to work? I'm guessing by what you guys have written, you want grapple writhe/balance recovery times to be unmodifiable (by race/weapon speed) so that about some percent of time, you're able to complete them so long as you're not hindered. Need solid numbers here.

I think I'm going to drop the 'power cost to specific skills' section. It's very subjective and should the need be great, it can be envoyed.

There has been discussion about nerfing Tattoos Tattoomaster, which gives 84/84 stat robes (as an effect) on top of double DMP on tattoos. Should something be done about that? The warrior report will be addressing high stat armour, so it may prove too much or just right. I'd like more discussion here.

As for the rest, I've modified the suggestions given the responses above:

Monks:

-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless).

-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)

-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p per limb that hits. Ex: If your weapons both miss but the kick hits, that should be 1p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.

-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss. You dont lose momentum when a form fails.

-Standardize grapple length and recovery. Do not take weapon/race stats into account. Make grapples faster for base speed races but do not make them faster than current for races with balance bonuses.

Sojiro:

All right, can you guys figure out specific numbers as far as how you want grapples to work? I'm guessing by what you guys have written, you want grapple writhe/balance recovery times to be unmodifiable (by race/weapon speed) so that about some percent of time (50?), you're able to complete them so long as you're not hindered. Need solid numbers here. 100% of the time, 50% would destroy the ability to use it in combat

I think I'm going to drop the 'power cost to specific skills' section. It's very subjective and should the need be great, it can be envoyed. Okay

As for the rest, I've modified the suggestions given the responses above:


Monks:

-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless). Yes

-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.) Yep

-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p per limb that hits. Ex: If your weapons both miss but the kick hits, that should be 1p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses. Right

-Remove momentum loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Remove balance loss. Right now if you try a chain and it fails you lose a burst of balance loss. You dont lose momentum when a form fails.

-Standardize grapple length and recovery. Do not take weapon/race stats into account. Make grapples faster for base speed races but do not make them faster than current for races with balance bonuses. This one I will ask more in game. Speed has to play a part but to not extreme extents, this was altered before we need to get to the sweet spot. Will do some tests.

-Reduce the armour effect of Tattoos Tattoomaster to about 72/72 robes (currently 84/84). This depends on the Warrior report. We also wanted something back, as written you just want to basically remove the trans skill. If warriors see a big boost then the current rate is fine, if it is kept the same we can lower to 74/74ish and try the alternative idea. Do not want to jump the gun on this, too likely to backfire. Maybe remove this and we will envoy it ourselves based on how reports go.

Hope that clears it up a little.

We dont want to see like -12/-12 armor but warriors suddenly do 20% more wounds and hit the target area 40% more often or something. That would be very bad.

Yeah, okay, figure something out RE: grapples and put up numbers, then we can go from there.

I've edited the rest per comments, though I'd like more discussion on tattoomaster.

I personally think that once warriors get their appropriate armor penetration that tattoomaster will be fine. The dmp is great but even combined with psymet there are many people I've seen who have far stronger resistances to everything than I do so I don't think it's in need of a nerf.

For grapple numbers here's basically the problem:

Shedrin carefully writhes out of your grapple, escaping your grasp.
You have recovered balance on your right arm.
You have recovered balance on your left arm.
You have recovered balance on your left leg.
********************************************************************************
* GRAPPLE WRITHED *
********************************************************************************
********************************* ON BALANCE ********************************
8966h, 5281m, 6394e, 6p 5mo esSilrxkdb<>-<16:38:36.051> |10 Bursts|

In other words they tend to writhe at the same time I've regained balance, but sometimes due to the variance of balance times or their lag or whatever I can beat them and get my ender off. The current writhe time appears to be a flat 3 seconds which is about the same as a runed monks balance time. If the writhe time was extended to 3.5s and grapple balances were set at a flat 3s that'd do what Malarious suggests.

Throwing this in though I don't monk, dunno if I'd mess with writhe times as a whole. That could snowball into making web/pinleg/other skills I can't think of at the moment huge issues. I'd rather see monk balance on grapples dropped to 2.5s than see writhe adjusted to 3.5s.

Ok I did some testing with Kregarn (he was using writhe not contort) and I have bad news, but first we will cover speeds, all of these use speed modifier:

Aslaran with 120 speed weapons:

You firmly hold Kregarn in place with an iron-strong grip.
Your momentum increases.
6679h, 5940m, 6270e, 10p, 24893en, 24900w exk<>- {49.3065}

You have recovered balance on your right arm. 2.6729
You have recovered balance on your left arm. 2.6779
6679h, 5940m, 6270e, 10p, 24900en, 24900w elrxk<>- {51.9865}
Balance of: 2.68


Aslaran with 110 speed weapons:
You firmly hold Kregarn in place with an iron-strong grip.
Your momentum increases.
6679h, 5940m, 6270e, 10p, 24893en, 24900w exk<>- {7.7965}

You have recovered balance on your right arm.
You have recovered balance on your left arm.
6679h, 5940m, 6270e, 10p, 24893en, 24900w elrxk<>-{10.5398}

Balance time: 2.74


Human with 110 speed weapons:
You firmly hold Kregarn in place with an iron-strong grip.
Your momentum increases.
7042h, 5940m, 5610e, 10p, 26393en, 24900w exk<>- {13.6751}

You have recovered balance on your right arm. 2.958
You have recovered balance on your left arm. 2.962
7042h, 5940m, 5610e, 10p, 26400en, 24900w elrxk<>- {16.8253}

Balance time: 3.15


I have enquired as to writhing, which as of Siors last changes has a range of 2.6 to 3.2 seconds. Yes writhe actually has a range to escape grapples.

So very rarely will a human ever pull a form, but there is also a chance of people to escape aslaran.using grapple.

I propose the following as a result:
- All grapple begin ignoring weapon speed.
- Standardize the writhe at say 3 seconds.
- Grappling when using a speed modifier should have a base speed of 2.8 seconds and be effected by racial (if race wont help then people might get upset, and also prevents tae'dae grapple ganks).
- Floor the grapple time at 2.6, that is, no one will ever hit faster than that.

This would put aslaran/faeling at 2.6, furrikin at 2.6 as well, yada yada. If this is considered too fast of a grapple bump base time to 2.85, but two tenths of a second is not enough time for most people to use combo's fluidly, you are either spamming or chaining forms. Instances where you want to time like nekotai spit or shofangi headslam thing, would require very precise timing.

I believe that would put things at a good level, and writhe would be faster than entangles are I believe still (web is 4?).