Unknown2012-01-26 05:55:40
I rather like the idea of removing deepwounds from monks entirely, along with the nerf to their damage that would entail. IN conjunction with the listed buffs, monks become significantly affliction/lock based and lose their ability to do catastrophic damage as soon as they hit momentum five.
Lilija2012-01-26 06:59:10
Since it's an affliction class, and it seems like affliction classes on other IREs give up the ability to do lots of damage in order to have their affs and aff rate (I know, I know, this is Lusternia, not Aetolia/Imperian/other IREs, so the argument is invalid) Fool's idea is an interesting one that should be explored by people who are smarter than me.
Edit: Also, is it possible for a cameo Nekotai to get us some numbers for tae'dae oothai with and without hold breath compared to one of the other races (aslaran, lobo perhaps)? Also, standardized grapple could make tae'dae too awesome by grappling up to 5 mo ignoring their usual speed malus, then laying the wtfsmackdownholynil forms. Not saying that said kata forms exist (I never found them as shofangi) but with that outlier strength...someone who knows the math do the math. It seems like tae'dae could replace aslaran as the monk race of choice. This is ignoring whatever changes shake out for them from the races thread.
From what I read, grapples to high levels of momentum are kind of standard for nekotai at this point due to their ka costs, but this is me speaking from trying to understand the barrage of information that is this thread. Assuming no changes to skills directly, this could open up a can o' worms.
One more edit for kicks: I'm not at all implying that the wiser beings debating this stuff aren't going to do their jobs Shuyin. I'm just saying, from where I'm looking at it, the stated problem hasn't been touched in the current set of solutions, and that kind of rubs me the wrong way.
Also, Edenwe, for whatever reason my mind refused to parse speed bonus as a racial stat. It was hung up on str/dex/etc. So, my apologies for not getting that.
Edit: Also, is it possible for a cameo Nekotai to get us some numbers for tae'dae oothai with and without hold breath compared to one of the other races (aslaran, lobo perhaps)? Also, standardized grapple could make tae'dae too awesome by grappling up to 5 mo ignoring their usual speed malus, then laying the wtfsmackdownholynil forms. Not saying that said kata forms exist (I never found them as shofangi) but with that outlier strength...someone who knows the math do the math. It seems like tae'dae could replace aslaran as the monk race of choice. This is ignoring whatever changes shake out for them from the races thread.
From what I read, grapples to high levels of momentum are kind of standard for nekotai at this point due to their ka costs, but this is me speaking from trying to understand the barrage of information that is this thread. Assuming no changes to skills directly, this could open up a can o' worms.
One more edit for kicks: I'm not at all implying that the wiser beings debating this stuff aren't going to do their jobs Shuyin. I'm just saying, from where I'm looking at it, the stated problem hasn't been touched in the current set of solutions, and that kind of rubs me the wrong way.
Also, Edenwe, for whatever reason my mind refused to parse speed bonus as a racial stat. It was hung up on str/dex/etc. So, my apologies for not getting that.
Unknown2012-01-26 07:29:57
Afflicton classes do not give up their ability to do lots damage, they've always been given the option to choose between damage dealing or afflicting depending on the circumstances and proper set-up (Stats, Arties, Buffs, Equipments). Apostates and Occultists in Achaea for example, can still loldamage people to death if they wanted to, and yet they're still immensely feared for the rate at which they can land afflictions.
Now, if you guys are talking about revamping the Monk class to be more like the Serpentlords of IRE by getting rid of deepwounds entirely. Also no thanks, that's another headache along with a waste of effort in coding waiting to happen (Four different monk guilds, four different skillsets to redo... and we don't even have the ability to do illusions to make up for the lack of damage like them serpents. :( ). Monks shall always be like the rest of the Monks I've known in IRE games--An offensive class that has the potential to deal lots of physical affs and damage.
If you wanna nerf monks, make us less tankier or something. Because admittingly, compared to other monks in ire games, I have way more DMP and Armor compared to them (Which is a leather armor with 20/20 cutting|blunt). Offense should always sacrifice some defense if they want to retain their offensive capabilities. (I.E. Glass Cannons). Neutering an entire archetype's offense and then hastily slapping some additional power costs to their skills is just another potential disaster waiting to happen.
Now, if you guys are talking about revamping the Monk class to be more like the Serpentlords of IRE by getting rid of deepwounds entirely. Also no thanks, that's another headache along with a waste of effort in coding waiting to happen (Four different monk guilds, four different skillsets to redo... and we don't even have the ability to do illusions to make up for the lack of damage like them serpents. :( ). Monks shall always be like the rest of the Monks I've known in IRE games--An offensive class that has the potential to deal lots of physical affs and damage.
If you wanna nerf monks, make us less tankier or something. Because admittingly, compared to other monks in ire games, I have way more DMP and Armor compared to them (Which is a leather armor with 20/20 cutting|blunt). Offense should always sacrifice some defense if they want to retain their offensive capabilities. (I.E. Glass Cannons). Neutering an entire archetype's offense and then hastily slapping some additional power costs to their skills is just another potential disaster waiting to happen.
Malarious2012-01-26 16:11:20
@Edenwe: Tae'dae wont be able to grapple still. Races malus/bonus still come into play, we just make a cap how fast you will end up. Thats why I use "base balance".
@Lilija: This problem is so complex we cannot actually fix it here. Like some regen affs are minor but required to get places. We cannot outright add power costs to certain areas or the guild falls apart. The report currently consists of mechanical fixes: Like warrior, we do not want to pay for a skill that doesnt work (lunge mod), we dont want to pay momentum if we arent hitting something, the dont fall below mo2 is an attempt to get away from all grapples in groups, and the remove balance loss from terminated forms is to get rid of the drawback of a dated mechanic.
Grapples are a bug. If you look at the report on monk speed they did not go with our capping report and adjusted speed in total, at least 2 more times after that he NOTED he had adjusted speed, and more than once he did one he had not announced. The problem is in his last test with grapple speed he used an ASLARAN, which is why Aslaran do not have a problem but base races do. We are simply including it in the report because after discussing with a divine a new divine has to look at it, so we need to reported.
@Lothringen: Yes, supposed to keep the monks to monks as a whole, which is basically just mechanics. Actually we asked about what was "wonky" with monks and no one could give a very good answer. The best we heard was "permaprone" which has been envoyed in respective guilds. Notice it started with "we need more mo levels" and that has disappeared, no one could reason that change rather than speculate it.
As to "hopes they nerf themselves afterward":
#481 c+ Skill: - MonkDamage G: Ninjakari (22)
#508 c+ Skill: - MonkSpeed G: Ninjakari (8)
Those are probably some of the most important of the lot. There have been many other nerfs to skillsets but those were the most encompassing. We have a fine standard for envoying, and the clan keeps people accountable for their changes. We get to filter and discuss reports as a whole.
I would really suggest a Somethingish for everyone else!
@Lilija: This problem is so complex we cannot actually fix it here. Like some regen affs are minor but required to get places. We cannot outright add power costs to certain areas or the guild falls apart. The report currently consists of mechanical fixes: Like warrior, we do not want to pay for a skill that doesnt work (lunge mod), we dont want to pay momentum if we arent hitting something, the dont fall below mo2 is an attempt to get away from all grapples in groups, and the remove balance loss from terminated forms is to get rid of the drawback of a dated mechanic.
Grapples are a bug. If you look at the report on monk speed they did not go with our capping report and adjusted speed in total, at least 2 more times after that he NOTED he had adjusted speed, and more than once he did one he had not announced. The problem is in his last test with grapple speed he used an ASLARAN, which is why Aslaran do not have a problem but base races do. We are simply including it in the report because after discussing with a divine a new divine has to look at it, so we need to reported.
@Lothringen: Yes, supposed to keep the monks to monks as a whole, which is basically just mechanics. Actually we asked about what was "wonky" with monks and no one could give a very good answer. The best we heard was "permaprone" which has been envoyed in respective guilds. Notice it started with "we need more mo levels" and that has disappeared, no one could reason that change rather than speculate it.
As to "hopes they nerf themselves afterward":
#481 c+ Skill: - MonkDamage G: Ninjakari (22)
#508 c+ Skill: - MonkSpeed G: Ninjakari (8)
Those are probably some of the most important of the lot. There have been many other nerfs to skillsets but those were the most encompassing. We have a fine standard for envoying, and the clan keeps people accountable for their changes. We get to filter and discuss reports as a whole.
I would really suggest a Something
Lothringen2012-01-26 20:20:35
Like I said, I understand why it is the way it is, but that doesn't change the fact that what was voted on by the community isn't being addressed. The reason monks were included in the Special Report was because of a perceived need to tone them down somehow, as seen in the original stated problem of this thread. We've veered away from that to monk fixes (tiny buffs) that don't relate to the premise of the report in the slightest. It's like everyone is saying, "Well, we don't know what to do about the stated problem, so we'll just sidestep that for now and... please give us these things that in no way relate to our intended purpose here."
To clarify, the problem is the blanket class adjustments desired (as I understand it) by the admin, and not Shuyin or the monk envoys, who are too constrained to do what is actually necessary. Because of that, this section of the report isn't addressing the main problem, only the peripheral.
That said, I just want to get it over with!
To clarify, the problem is the blanket class adjustments desired (as I understand it) by the admin, and not Shuyin or the monk envoys, who are too constrained to do what is actually necessary. Because of that, this section of the report isn't addressing the main problem, only the peripheral.
That said, I just want to get it over with!
Malarious2012-01-26 20:35:04
Call it taking an alternative solution. People claim to want "toning down" although I still do not hear anyone giving explanations for that. However to get to such a point things must make enough sense that we can readily make such changes. Case in point with grapples broken we cannot make changes to them on the assumption they will always work, we also cannot assume you are always aslaran or damage/wounding is considerably off. We attempted to do what we could with the report, were then told it needed to be specific and blanket, so we could not just say "fix target skills".
The best way to find a balanced point is to first make everything at about the same level so changes do not hit anyone overly hard.
tl;dr:
Best way to fix things is for them all to be predictable, since we must make guild specific changes normally. If Shuyin could arrange a few (say 5/6) envoy slots we could do alot more. The problem outright says we are limited by ka costs but we have no fast way to adjust specific skills through this report either. The solutions are too limited to handle the pieces of the problem.
We are just hoping for shuyin to forward the report as written for now, monks have been their own most critical envoyers.
EDIT: Another way to look at it is the problem has evolved to encompass what we are allowed to do. The problem is various bugs and flaws in the momentum system we are fixing since specific skills have to go through envoys.
The best way to find a balanced point is to first make everything at about the same level so changes do not hit anyone overly hard.
tl;dr:
Best way to fix things is for them all to be predictable, since we must make guild specific changes normally. If Shuyin could arrange a few (say 5/6) envoy slots we could do alot more. The problem outright says we are limited by ka costs but we have no fast way to adjust specific skills through this report either. The solutions are too limited to handle the pieces of the problem.
We are just hoping for shuyin to forward the report as written for now, monks have been their own most critical envoyers.
EDIT: Another way to look at it is the problem has evolved to encompass what we are allowed to do. The problem is various bugs and flaws in the momentum system we are fixing since specific skills have to go through envoys.
Unknown2012-01-26 21:09:26
You're really not sure why monks could use toning down? Well, consider that one monk combo, even at zero or one momentum, can give a target nearly a dozen things to "heal" (afflictions, deep wounds, damage, stripped defenses) and the fact that there is no break in the middle of a single form's execution (that is, a one-hander warrior will swing two separate weapons, but a monk will hit you with it all in one fell swoop). Then, consider that the victim's future afflictions are based more on his attacker's status than his own, through the momentum system. The attrition occurs at a pretty fast pace due to the nature of these mechanics.
Malarious2012-01-26 21:23:11
Line removed. Impossible for monks to deal a dozen things you have to heal. Forms are balanced around ka, which requires all actions at once, that said all attacks check defenses such as parry/stance/rebounding, so they do not avoid anything in that regard, so its not an issue. Momentum system causes you to lose potency if you do anything heavily damaging, it seems to be working from our end.
Attrition: The action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure.
We do not reduce your strengths or effects over time, we do not weaken you, and any attempts to slow you down will generally cost us. We are an affliction class, we do not kill you because time goes on we kill you because an affliction has either reached the points its lethal (bleeding) or we land the right combination and maintain it (locks). The only attrition kill a monk will pull is when they specifically focus on damage kills which will try to build wounds.
Attrition: The action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure.
We do not reduce your strengths or effects over time, we do not weaken you, and any attempts to slow you down will generally cost us. We are an affliction class, we do not kill you because time goes on we kill you because an affliction has either reached the points its lethal (bleeding) or we land the right combination and maintain it (locks). The only attrition kill a monk will pull is when they specifically focus on damage kills which will try to build wounds.
Unknown2012-01-26 22:07:52
Malarious:
The only attrition kill a monk will pull is when they specifically focus on damage kills which will try to build wounds.
I've rarely seen monks kill with anything else, except the Tahtetso insta.
Malarious2012-01-26 22:25:54
Bleeding is a different kill method, its based around afflictions that cause it.
Most guilds can use an insta, in fact sometimes you might see finalsting used for its bleeding.
Any damage attributed to a hardlock means they didnt care about attrition, I am putting constrict in this area too.
Rule of thumb, if the monk is not dedicating effort to it, it wont kill you in passing.
Most guilds can use an insta, in fact sometimes you might see finalsting used for its bleeding.
Any damage attributed to a hardlock means they didnt care about attrition, I am putting constrict in this area too.
Rule of thumb, if the monk is not dedicating effort to it, it wont kill you in passing.
Unknown2012-01-27 09:21:06
Yeah, the solutions presented have nothing to do with the problem. I'll revise it a bit tomorrow.
Janalon2012-01-27 12:12:20
Malarious:
@Lothringen: Yes, supposed to keep the monks to monks as a whole, which is basically just mechanics. Actually we asked about what was "wonky" with monks and no one could give a very good answer. The best we heard was "permaprone" which has been envoyed in respective guilds. Notice it started with "we need more mo levels" and that has disappeared, no one could reason that change rather than speculate it.
It never disappeared. All of the conversation is still there. I've simply resigned myself from repeating the single-sided, repeated statement for five pages worth of posting, when the problem is clearly articulated by Lerad on page 1.
http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?showtopic=20314&view=findpost&p=845657
I still stand by my original thinking about increasing momentum by one or two levels to slightly delay achieving top levels of momentum AND make momentum gain/loss more fluid… but instead the conversation veered into raising the "floor" on momentum loss.
Too bad all of this pointing out of "monk problems" didn't occur much earlier in this whole process. That's all I'll say about that.
vorld2012-01-27 15:07:57
Janalon:
It never disappeared. All of the conversation is still there. I've simply resigned myself from repeating the single-sided, repeated statement for five pages worth of posting, when the problem is clearly articulated by Lerad on page 1.
http://forums.luster...ndpost&p=845657
I still stand by my original thinking about increasing momentum by one or two levels to slightly delay achieving top levels of momentum AND make momentum gain/loss more fluid… but instead the conversation veered into raising the "floor" on momentum loss.
Too bad all of this pointing out of "monk problems" didn't occur much earlier in this whole process. That's all I'll say about that.
I think that momentum should have a few more levels it would be more interesting that way
Unknown2012-01-27 15:53:24
Malarious, you've missed my point again. I'm not saying it's a dozen afflictions straight up. It's up to a dozen different things that can be healed or restored, such as rebounding razed, deep wounds to three different body parts, health damage, AND afflictions, from poisons and the attack itself. And, you've skipped right past the latter parts of my reasoning...
I'm not saying these things to be inflammatory. I'm pointing out, from a non-monk perspective, why the mechanics are difficult to swallow.
I'm not saying these things to be inflammatory. I'm pointing out, from a non-monk perspective, why the mechanics are difficult to swallow.
Malarious2012-01-27 19:48:11
This thread has become a last minute hack job. There was alot of time for discussion but people waited until the last moment.
I am going to go now, this will only end up being a "nerf monks" report generated by people with little idea of how monks work at this point. Too bad deadline is like now or we might have seen results.
I disagree with the vison of monks (better warriors) as we use a wholy different model, and I will now step out of the thread unless my input is requested. I will say two things though, 1) the report standardizes the model so it is easier to make changes to. and 2) We have already begun pointing fingers and proposing envoy changes. This coming report Wobou has okayed someone envoying Butojo (slitlock). Honestly I would rather see several envoy reports than a special report at this point, at least then we are sure the changes are what are designed for instead of what are cried for.
tl;dr
- Leave the report ideas as is, its best if we envoy the main issues
- We are already envoyin at least slitlock coming up.
- Standardizing things is the best way to enable fixing them
- I am gone
I am going to go now, this will only end up being a "nerf monks" report generated by people with little idea of how monks work at this point. Too bad deadline is like now or we might have seen results.
I disagree with the vison of monks (better warriors) as we use a wholy different model, and I will now step out of the thread unless my input is requested. I will say two things though, 1) the report standardizes the model so it is easier to make changes to. and 2) We have already begun pointing fingers and proposing envoy changes. This coming report Wobou has okayed someone envoying Butojo (slitlock). Honestly I would rather see several envoy reports than a special report at this point, at least then we are sure the changes are what are designed for instead of what are cried for.
tl;dr
- Leave the report ideas as is, its best if we envoy the main issues
- We are already envoyin at least slitlock coming up.
- Standardizing things is the best way to enable fixing them
- I am gone
Eritheyl2012-01-27 22:45:55
Problem:
Monks as a whole are considered to be slightly overpowered given the reliability of their offense in giving high level warrior afflictions at a fast rate. However, they also suffer from disproportional ka costs and the limitations of the momentum system.
From what I can see, posts relating to the original point ended about three pages ago. That seems to be the problem here, not:
this will only end up being a "nerf monks" report generated by people with little idea of how monks work at this point.
Unknown2012-01-28 06:44:54
Okay hi,
Here is a revised report after having discussed things with envoys.
That would make it 5 buffs to 6 nerfs, for those who really like counting.
Here is a revised report after having discussed things with envoys.
Monks
-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to momentum level 2, i.e. don't drop below momentum level 2 when changing targets (Currently it just drops you a flat -2 momentum regardless).
-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)
-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p per limb that hits. Ex: If your weapons both miss but the kick hits, that should be 1p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.
-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.
-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss. You dont lose momentum when a form fails.
-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo, with a caveat that it cost 1-2p if done with the skive modifier.
-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 4s (+2 from original) and increase the power cost to 2p (currently 1p).
-Change Harmony Akhooshlumang to display a monk's stats to be + or - 15% of their current stats, instead of a randomized number right now.
-Add a 2s delay to Ninjakari Ninukhi before it attempts to pull the victim, with a warning line. Ex: Bob tries to yank Bill (who sees a warning that a chain is about to grab him), 2s later, the yank happens.
-Add a 2 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil.
-Reduce Tattoos TattooMaster's armour effect from 84/84 to 74/74.
That would make it 5 buffs to 6 nerfs, for those who really like counting.
Placeus2012-01-28 07:31:37
Sojiro:
-Standardize grapple length and balance recovery. Writhing from a grapple should always take 3s. monks that are of neutral balance should always recover balance (from grappling) in 3.2 seconds, with the speed mod allowing the recovery to get up to 2.8s (thus allowing the completion of an ender). Do not take weapon stats into account, only racial.
This one bothers me a little. I'm fairly sure it will further encourage the "grapple to 4 or 5 mo then start kill forms" tactic rather than requiring monks to use weapon attacks which target limbs and are susceptable to failure based on parry, stance and rebounding.
Unknown2012-01-28 08:53:43
Maybe a nerf to steel grip would be in order, but I'm not overly sold on that part yet either. We'll see.
Janalon2012-01-28 11:26:31
-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p per limb that hits. Ex: If your weapons both miss but the kick hits, that should be 1p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.
I've raise slight objections to this one. Consider the following:
- kicks are not directly impacted by lunge mod (for damage/bleeding calculation & will not raze shields on kick)
- kaife+nekreve is a one action kata form. Would that only cost one power to guarantee +2 momentum gain?
I'd rather see a 1 power deduction for each limb that misses (subtractive) rather than 1 power cost for each limb that hits (additive). This would mean that one and two action forms still cost the requisite 3 power UNLESS this theoretical miss occurs.
-Add a 2 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil.
I assume the suggested cool down is to have some Stealth-skill nerf to parallel Harmony AND prevent endless Veil looping (at the cost of power attrition). This is somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison, but would you also suggest a 2 minute cool down to Low Magic Serpent or High Magic Great Pentagram? My reasoning being anyone can loop Serpent/GreatPentagram (both trans skills, though at a higher power cost). In my mind, this is not one of the "core" problems of monks, but was tacked on last minute so the report appeared to offer monk nerfs to balance out suggested buffs... but it doesn't really solve the "monk" problem.
Also... I wouldn't outright call some of the "buffs" as "buffs." Some of Malarious' suggestions (specifically speaking to the first three listed). were to bring kata performance syntax from the archaic auto-raze era more into line with momentum monks and parallel some syntax/mechanics seen on warrior side. Hey, if the Envoys were really looking for something considerable, how about ending speed bonus for kata chains or even limiting forms in a kata chain... like REPORT 739. Ending speed bonus and adjusting performance mechanics away from chaining could have significant impact. This is a finalized report. Comments anyone?
I simply find it distasteful for a last-minute tack on right before report submission considering the lack of voice from the larger player base earlier in the process, when ideas could be more properly vetted and lack of participation. I am also frustrated by the lack of guidance throughout the entire monk thread by the special report coordinator. This eleventh-hour attempt appears to offer nerf/buff "solutions" does very little to address the core issues-- there is nothing in this report that constitutes well-known and systemic problems with monks that cannot be addressed through our current envoy system.
