Unknown2011-10-26 21:16:18
Before I begin, I would like to make the disclaimer that I REALLY like the ideas behind these changes, and want badly for them to be successful. That said, there are a few issues to be addressed.
-It costs thousands, if not millions, of gold to train a figurine to Lv.40. +5% per level is insufficient to make this worthwhile so long as the figurine is destroyed after offering. (Thanks Iosai.)
-Training a figurine takes a significant time investment. Spending time leveling your figurine instead of influencing for more esteem is not going to be worth your time.
-These changes make selling or offering esteem significantly more expensive. This has the unfortunate side effect of making the esteem market very difficult for our poorer players to break into, as they must now pay for expensive figurines in advance, as well as damaging the esteem market as a whole because the increased overhead will drastically drive up esteem selling prices without actually affecting profit margin, especially on leveled up figurines. Further, this will make pricing drastically more difficult based on figurine levels; determining what a good price is becomes very difficult.
-Decay times on figurines are far too low for the price and the amount that can be invested.
I believe I have a solution for these problems:
1) Make figurines not be destroyed upon offering; instead, make them lose decay time and a single level, as well as all imbued esteem. If the figurine is Lv1 or has insufficient decay time, destroy it instead.
2) Make the bonus from level non-linear so that those willing to invest the time, effort, and money into a figurine gain a a large bonus.
3) Make an artisan skill that allows upkeep on figurines at small cost to the imbued esteem, as well as commodities.
4) Allow esteem to be transferred by amount between figurines to aid ease of selling, possibly with a small esteem loss in the process.
That's the easy part. The hard part will be making the figurine combat system more balanced and skill based, though that can come later.
I would like to repeat that I like the idea of people having a personal idol that they use to glorify their god, especially one that can fight with others for the right to be a greater object of devotion. I really just want this to be used.
-It costs thousands, if not millions, of gold to train a figurine to Lv.40. +5% per level is insufficient to make this worthwhile so long as the figurine is destroyed after offering. (Thanks Iosai.)
-Training a figurine takes a significant time investment. Spending time leveling your figurine instead of influencing for more esteem is not going to be worth your time.
-These changes make selling or offering esteem significantly more expensive. This has the unfortunate side effect of making the esteem market very difficult for our poorer players to break into, as they must now pay for expensive figurines in advance, as well as damaging the esteem market as a whole because the increased overhead will drastically drive up esteem selling prices without actually affecting profit margin, especially on leveled up figurines. Further, this will make pricing drastically more difficult based on figurine levels; determining what a good price is becomes very difficult.
-Decay times on figurines are far too low for the price and the amount that can be invested.
I believe I have a solution for these problems:
1) Make figurines not be destroyed upon offering; instead, make them lose decay time and a single level, as well as all imbued esteem. If the figurine is Lv1 or has insufficient decay time, destroy it instead.
That's the easy part. The hard part will be making the figurine combat system more balanced and skill based, though that can come later.
I would like to repeat that I like the idea of people having a personal idol that they use to glorify their god, especially one that can fight with others for the right to be a greater object of devotion. I really just want this to be used.
Unknown2011-10-26 21:21:39
Ssaliss:
Now, first thing first: I love the changes! I haven't been able to play with it much though, but here are some suggestions for the future:
First, remove the u after the number in Esteem. I don't think it adds anything myself, and just looks... odd.
Second, make a new rune, that would make a figurine permanent and make it one level stronger. Perhaps only have it work on unenchanted figurines. Price... about 50 credits, I suppose. That way, a level 40 figurine would cost 2000 credits. A figurine with a rune would return to your inventory when offered with all its esteem drained.
Third, and I'm not sure about this: Don't destroy figurines when offered, but rather reduce their level to 1. I've not tried to offer a figurine yet, but I assume it's destroyed right now. The pros would be that you wouldn't need to keep shops stocked with figurines, the con would be that the figurine-making business would eventually die down.
Unknown2011-10-26 21:35:19
Morshoth:
A few things:
1. Make esteem transferable between figurines, that way it will be easier to sell it to people... something like TRANSFER X ESTEEM FROMto
2. Make using the esteem (for offering and sanctify/defile) not get rid of the figurine, for those who want to level their figurines and such in battles
3. Make carving figurines not get rid of the esteem already on them
4. Make it so non-trades people can place items made by the trades in their miniatures (such as miniature cloak, only tailors can put them on the miniatures for some odd reason)
5. Make figurines with esteem never be destroyed completely in fighting rings, and to stop people from leveling a figurine with invincible ones, make the point where it would be destroyed add nothing to a figurines "xp"
Unknown2011-10-26 21:43:33
Admin have said offering the figurine will always destroy it.
Being able to transfer esteem from figurine to figurine is coming.
They're also considering adding a skill to extend decay time. For now, just level it up a few times and get some months on it.
Losing esteem from carving a figurine sounds like a bug, act accordingly.
Being able to transfer esteem from figurine to figurine is coming.
They're also considering adding a skill to extend decay time. For now, just level it up a few times and get some months on it.
Losing esteem from carving a figurine sounds like a bug, act accordingly.
Ytran2011-10-26 21:46:09
Having offering destroy the figurine seems like it ends up screwing influencers over an inordinate amount when it comes to generating karma/gathering essence for their Orders. Unless offering now offers in groups of (random number) 5000 esteem or some such.
Unknown2011-10-26 21:49:23
If the admins aren't going to make figurines survive offering, then I hope they are willing to accept that high level figurines will never be offered. I'm sure people with level them a few times, but I can't see anyone leveling one to 40 only to offer it.
Also, the expense of offering esteem is going to be much greater, which is problematic for influencers trying to be useful to their order.
Also, the expense of offering esteem is going to be much greater, which is problematic for influencers trying to be useful to their order.
Enyalida2011-10-26 21:49:44
foolofsound:
I would like to repeat that I like the idea of people having a personal idol that they use to glorify their god, especially one that can fight with others for the right to be a greater object of devotion. I really just want this to be used.
This... would be so cool. If my figurine wasn't destroyed, I'd be fine with it taking a long time to drain esteem into the shrine and I have to leave it on the shrine for a while, and the levels/enchantment dies also.
Unknown2011-10-26 21:52:50
Maybe not to 40, it's not an absolutely-have-to-get-there goal.
I definitely would level it up to like 10-20 if I want to beat the pants off people in essence contests, or if my god wants it for godrealm/avatar/etc.
I definitely would level it up to like 10-20 if I want to beat the pants off people in essence contests, or if my god wants it for godrealm/avatar/etc.
Unknown2011-10-26 21:56:45
I somehow doubt that it will be more efficient to level a figurine than to go and influence for more esteem, even in contests.
Ssaliss2011-10-26 21:58:16
If a figurine has enough esteem in it, it'd be more efficient to level it up rather than gathering esteem.
Enyalida2011-10-26 22:00:48
We're getting figures in the millions of gold to level up, apparently? Keep in mind that depending on what happens with decay times, it may only be feasible to stock up so much for the average influencer.
Unknown2011-10-26 22:03:09
What?
That's not even close at all. I'd be surprised if it cost you more than 5k past actually getting a figurine to begin with.
And what Ssaliss said.
That's not even close at all. I'd be surprised if it cost you more than 5k past actually getting a figurine to begin with.
And what Ssaliss said.
Rathan2011-10-26 22:05:16
I don't mind this change too much, but I do worry about the effect this will have on the esteem market. We are moving from inexpensive uniform vessels to relatively expensive, unequal, and nearly limitless ones. A "needle" was formerly a standardized metric which allowed everyone to quickly and accurately catalogue esteem and sell it in nice, manageable units. A needle was just enough to sanctify/defile, and could be filled quickly enough that an ambitious influencer could sell their wares on a regular basis. Now, however, vendors have to consider a) quantity of esteem, B) quality of vessel, and c) overhead for crafting, outfitting, and maintaining figurines. Accurately comparing prices (quick, which is worth more, 6452 esteem on a lvl 16 figurine or 8634 esteem on a lvl 8 figurine), and being able to sell esteem regularly without cutting too deeply into your own profit margins are issues I worry about for the next generation of influencers.
Kiradawea2011-10-26 22:11:46
Influencing also gets an indirect nerf with this change. Previously, you could use esteem to imbue into whatever and offer it for a karma boost to keep up with those who offer corpses. Now, what cost practically nothing became much, MUCH more expensive. Esteem is suddenly a not so hot way of keeping up karma.
Ssaliss2011-10-26 22:13:50
You still get karma from imbuing though, and you now only need a single figurine to imbue. Although offering the figurine will likely cause a massive karma-boost to the point of getting over 100% now, which you didn't get with needles.
Unknown2011-10-26 22:14:59
Nothing is stopping anyone from getting a blank figurine, imbuing 500u into it and then just selling them as is as well.
Just the same as now, probably less profit though.
Just the same as now, probably less profit though.
Rathan2011-10-26 22:24:04
My proposal to fix a few of these issues:
Keep figurines as the direct conduit for esteem, but change that to an intermediary role in the greater esteeming process. Make the figurine then able to imbue small 'soulstones' either also created by a Jeweler or just crafted from thin air by the figurine when it has enough esteem. Make it so the level of the figurine affects the ratio/efficiency at which esteem can be converted into full 'soulstones', which then become the new standard 'unit' of offering. In other words, the process would work like this:
1) Person influences, generating large quantities of esteem
2) Person imbues this esteem into their figurine
3) When figurine has sufficient esteem, some of it can be converted into a charged "soulstone". The amount of esteem required to make a full soulstone is a direct function of the level of the figurine.
4) Soulstone is then offered, taking the place of fully imbued items/needles now.
This fixes the issue of figurines being so costly to make and upgrade by making them a permanent resource. While maintaining them will still have a fixed cost, it will not be as crippling to new players who don't have the funds to wait long periods of time between sales. It also allows esteem to be sold in standardized, managable units.
Keep figurines as the direct conduit for esteem, but change that to an intermediary role in the greater esteeming process. Make the figurine then able to imbue small 'soulstones' either also created by a Jeweler or just crafted from thin air by the figurine when it has enough esteem. Make it so the level of the figurine affects the ratio/efficiency at which esteem can be converted into full 'soulstones', which then become the new standard 'unit' of offering. In other words, the process would work like this:
1) Person influences, generating large quantities of esteem
2) Person imbues this esteem into their figurine
3) When figurine has sufficient esteem, some of it can be converted into a charged "soulstone". The amount of esteem required to make a full soulstone is a direct function of the level of the figurine.
4) Soulstone is then offered, taking the place of fully imbued items/needles now.
This fixes the issue of figurines being so costly to make and upgrade by making them a permanent resource. While maintaining them will still have a fixed cost, it will not be as crippling to new players who don't have the funds to wait long periods of time between sales. It also allows esteem to be sold in standardized, managable units.
Kiradawea2011-10-26 22:27:19
The esteem you get from imbuing is about 1/4th of what you get from offering from my experience. I loved being able to just outrift an arnica or something, imbue it, then hand it over to someone else who needs karma right then and there if I don't need it myself. Right now, that becomes very expensive and unwieldly.
Unknown2011-10-26 22:27:23
I like Rathan's ideas as well, though I think those may be more annoying to code.
Enyalida2011-10-26 22:39:55
It would work better if you made offering not destroy the figurine in some fashion, if the aim is to make the figurine a permanent fixture, a personal conduit that you don't get rid of. Like, if you changed offering to take time instead of the figurine away from you.
