Yeah, I know it could have used more input but it's too late now. I think a big part of the problem for people is that there really isn't a tiny tweak that would "solve" everything. Ideas to fix druids need to be pretty well thought out. We'd need something pretty major, like an all-around change to their focus. Sap alone may never really cut it.

In fact, here's the druid part I sent, along with a note on which parts were implemented and which weren't:

-----------------------------------------

Alter the focus of druid combat to be more based on thornlash/thornrend instead of sap. Add a new affliction called allergies that will help with this:


=Druidry=

NOTE: Any number presented here is subject to change pending discussion. Nothing is set in stone.

Thornlash/Thornrend:
-Increase the number of lashes needed to thornrend a target by 1, total lashes needed = 5 (4 limbs and head). Done
-Allow victims to be thornlashed while sapped once more. Done
-Alter POINT/CAST IGNITE to only burn 1 thornlash off the victim per use. Done, kind of
-Consider having the bleeding from thornrend increase if the victim is currently on tree elevation.
-Consider having the writhing from thornlash extend if the victim is currently on tree elevation. Done

Sap:
-Cause POINT CLEANSE (person) to fail on sapped victims if the druid who cast the sap is in the room (ground or tree elevation only).
-Reduce the power cost to 2p and remove the tree elevation requirement.
-Reduce sap equilibrium to 3s (currently 4s). Done
-Alter sap's effect: have it extend the writhing time from entanglements (vines, thornlashes, etc), give a rubble-like delay to moving out of the room.
-Alter sap so that if you are ignited (or the ablaze affliction ticks) while sapped, the sap hardens, adding an additional writhe cure before you can cleanse the sap off. You need to writhe out of the hardened sap, then cleanse off the sticky inner sap. Can't tipheret/summer this.
-Consider having the sap affliction render igniting self useless until cured. Changed to more damage.

New Afflicton:
-Allergies, it is a mechanic that builds up over time / actively, up to 10-15 levels. The higher the allergic level, the more often/worse its effects get. Allergy levels drop by one level every 10s while in the presence of the druid who afflicted the victim and every 5 seconds when away from that same druid. Allergies completely cure instantly after 10 seconds of being away from a druid -and- forestal terrain/meld. Done

Allergy's Effects:
1. Extends the writhing time of entanglements (vines, thornlashes, etc) Done
2. Get afflicted by the mucous affliction, which has a % chance to prone you if you try to leave the room (have a runny nose) Changed to climb failure.
3. Lessens your poison shrugging capabilities Done

*Ideally, 5 allergy levels + sapped is barely enough to guarantee a thornrend, 10 allergies alone should be about the same as the former.

New Skills:
-Monitor, an ability that shows what your target's current allergy level and number of thornlashes are at. Requires balance/eq, but consumes neither. Done
-Seedcloud, an active move (costs 1p) that increments a target's allergy level by 1 and briefly throws them off balance. Has a 50%* chance for double the allergy levels if done on a victim at tree level. Done, bumped up to chance of 3
-Intoxicating Flower, an active move (costs 3p and requires forest terrain) that summons a victim back with the druid so long as they have 5+ allergic levels. Possibly have it decrease allergy levels (3?) once successful. Stopped by shield/monolith. Done
-Shock, an active move (costs 5p) that causes cleansing effects and writhing moves to fail (failure will consume a hefty balance) on a % chance based off allergy levels for about 30-45s. Perhaps something like 7.5% chance to fail per allergy level. Once the effect concludes, all allergy levels fade. If done on a victim at tree level, there is a further 10%* chance of failure.

Alterations To Other Skills:
-Alter Pollen, this meld effect will also increase a victim's allergy level if they are currently suffering from allergies. If they are on tree level, there is a 25% for increased allergies. Done, bumped up to 50%
-Alter Swarm, same change as Pollen. Done, bumped up to 50%

*Ideally, one effect will be blocked by protection scroll (pollen), the other will not (swarm). Note that this does nothing if you don't already suffer from allergies.

-------------------------

Basically, everything was done except for changing sap itself, additionally, skills that were proposed to prevent cleansing of sap were also denied, since sap wasn't changed.

I got the idea that not all of the changes discussed would be implemented, just a sub-set. We'll see how it goes.

Mixed feelings.

Honestly, we've seen this before. If you remain silent, you surrender the narrative to people who aren't silent. I don't know if the changes are balanced or not. I do know that people who have opinons shouldn't have sat on their hands for months, and then become apalled when the result goes purely in one direction.

If it really is going to be over the top? We can do one of two things:

Make sure mages get a similar treatment. No, "but they have TK" is not an argument against this. I'm sure, for random example, aquas would love to be able to work towards a preserve kill more effectively.

If necessary, develop envoy general consenus on the issue- but again, if it isn't going to just be "envoy wars", it needs a real consensus with commentary- and adjust accordingly.

But really, it does bother me that we were given a great opportunity, an unprecedented opportunity, and a long window to do it in, and people sat on their hands until they saw the result, then said "HAY!"

I think it'd be cool to move away from demesnes in general and wrote a letter to that effect, but I don't think that'll be well received.

I dunno what to do or think about the changes and if they went far enough. I got the distinct vibe that the class was liked as-is and that the special report was only because enough people voted for it from 'down here'.

I don't think you get it at all. No one has any idea what to do to fix them, even now. Heh. That's why people were quiet and let others run the show and play the veto game.

As for aquas and preserve kills, that isn't even their main kill method, and mages have lots. Druids literally have about one and it's gimpy.

Rivius:

Yeah, I know it could have used more input but it's too late now. I think a big part of the problem for people is that there really isn't a tiny tweak that would "solve" everything. Ideas to fix druids need to be pretty well thought out. We'd need something pretty major, like an all-around change to their focus. Sap alone may never really cut it.

That is exactly why druids got a special report. So we could have a HUGE, MAJOR change. It's understandable not wanting to comment on something you don't feel comfortable with. I didn't because at best, I could only point out logical fallacies in the argumentation. I don't think I could've contributed anything with meaning to that discussion. And like Akui said, by doing that I forfeithed the narrative to the druids discussing druidry. And because of this, I can't in good faith come in now and say "oh lord, those changes are terrible", because I saw they were coming from a mile away.

This isn't about personal guilt though. I think the idea was to express that there's still a problem and that we should continue to seek its resolution. We can look past that sort of thing and focus on the objective at hand?

Too little too late. The special report was supposed to be the resolution.

And Enyalida is already willing to fix the current implementation. Of course something completely new isn't going to be completely balanced, but the complaining here is utterly invalid.

On the contrary, I think what you call "complaining" is actually called "criticism" and is probably a good basis for future ideas and improvement.

Said criticism is still late eitherway.

You can't ask to paint your house blue, pay the painters, watch it get painted, wait several days for said paint to dry, see your handiwork, then complain that the house is blue.

It's just unreasonable, and the very worst, even offensive.

It would be critical if it was given at any point when something could be done about it.

Now? It's just complaining whichever way you try to paint it.

Though, I really didn't get the MAJOR REVISION sense from the admins on the report, though I personally think it would have been wonderful.

Rivius:

This isn't about personal guilt though. I think the idea was to express that there's still a problem and that we should continue to seek its resolution. We can look past that sort of thing and focus on the objective at hand?

Have you actually seen anybody say "Yep, druids are perfectly fixed and balanced now, there's no doubt about that"?

Both Enyalida and I, who I think were the some of the biggest contributors to that thread, have said we think it still needs adjusting.

Eh. I'd argue that the revision you already got is somewhat big. A new mechanic, three new skills, a change to how thornlashes work... seems to me they tried to make thornlash more viable. It may not have been enough, or implemented properly, but reading back over what the druid thread suggested, the end result is pretty much reaping what you sowed.

Your "painting the house" analogy isn't lined up properly. It's more like the contractors missed a spot, and you need to do some touch-up work.

Thornlashes work the same! And it's one new skill. I do think it's very good, and a valuable weapon for druids (in fact, one that may need nerfs), but that does not a rework make. We've still got all of the same stuff going on, and the same core mechanic -> sap.

Zarquan:

Your "painting the house" analogy isn't lined up properly. It's more like the contractors missed a spot, and you need to do some touch-up work.

Wrong. You can't even argue semantics because even though they "missed a spot", it's not the spot that is being complained about. It's the idea that druids now have a mechanic that forces you to run out of the druid demesne or suffer from the effect of allergy.

o Druidry Thornlash now has five limbs to cover. Two arms, two legs, and
the head. The power cost caps out at 8p, even if all five limbs are
lashed.
o Druid combat has a new affliction mechanic. Here's a brief rundown of
how it works:
+ Allergies can be mild, strong, severe, or incapacitating.
+ The worse your allergies, the longer you will take to
writhe free from entanglements.
+ The worse your allergies, the harder you will find it to
shrug off poisons.
+ The worse your allergies, the harder you will find it to
climb up and down. At severe, climbing has a 50% failure
rate. At incapacitating, this rises to 80%. Failure incurs
a balance loss depending on your allergy level.
+ Allergy levels decrease over time. They will decrease twice
as fast if you are not in the presence of the druid who
is making you suffer, and will clear up completely shortly
after leaving his presence, and any forest environment.
o Druidry Pollen and Swarm now increases allergy levels, if the target
is already suffering from an allergic reaction. The effect is increased
in the trees.
o Druidry Sap's equilibrium cost is now 3 seconds.
o Sap now steals 1.0 - 2.5 seconds balance from the target depending on
their allergy level.
o Thornlashes can once again be placed on a target who is sapped.
o Igniting thornlashes now only cures 1-2 at a time (1 with a 50% chance
to cure a second).
o Thornrending someone non-fatally will now give 25% more bleeding if
the target is in the trees elevation.
o Ignite damage is increased on someone who is sapped.

All those are changes that have an effect upon thornrend. There is certainly a change there, though I'm not going to argue for its end effect. Just that there is a change for sure.

Rainydays:

Make sure mages get a similar treatment. No, "but they have TK" is not an argument against this. I'm sure, for random example, aquas would love to be able to work towards a preserve kill more effectively.

I think TK and TP (for aeros) is a great reason not to touch anything at all actually. If ecology solo'd people I do not think druids would have gotten any changes. Druids are meld based, they get meld based love even if some of it was a bit excessive.

Preserve is FINE, and several generations of mage have yet to get it to work as well as Narsrim could, learn to use it, stop random buffing. Read the reports first, it is almost bordering on being a joke.


#13 c Skill: Aquamancy - Preserve G: Aquamancers (0)
#126 c+ Skill: Aquamancy - Preserve G: Aquamancers (10)
#294 c+ Skill: Aquamancy - Preserve G: Aquamancers (16)
#389 c+ Skill: Aquamancy - Preserve G: Aquamancers (1)
#750 c+ Skill: Aquamancy - Preserve G: Aquamancers (5)