As for the new skills, I've said all I felt was needed to be said, which is:

I'm not convinced that the changes that were implemented achieved the desired effect. That includes, predominantly, sap, intoxicatingflower and the pollen levels. I'm happy with the changes to thornrending and ignite, but that skill was made more difficult in some ways, and so its supporting skills need to help make it achievable.

I'm not interested in druids being OP. But being perceived such simply because some scary-sounding skills were added is not the way to go about it. Throw in some constructive criticism with logs, please, and then we can talk 'balance' and 'unnecessarily buffed', and work together to bring it into line with how the report was intended to assist the archetype.

Druids definitely have an advantage in saplings over terrain. Though in 1 druid vs 1 mage trying to spread/hold a meld, without anybody else bothering them, it still really just comes down to who's got a faster EQ, even with that advantage. It's almost pointless to do that back and forth with forcing terrain, but if you stop to just try to attack the other person, they're going to meld, so you're kind of stuck doing it and it's a stupid waste of power. I hate getting into those fights.

With multiple druids and just other people in general, it's definitely better though, I don't really see how you could argue otherwise. To me it's never seemed like it could be as bad as Nydekion has always made it out to be, but I've never been on the mage side of it, so I don't know really.

RE Everything else: Honestly, at first look I do think the changes were too much. I haven't done any fighting, but they certainly do look over the top. That said, I really don't think the admin are going to be too quick to start changing it again, unless things actually do prove to be utterly ridiculous, soooooo, should go get some logs and such and see just how tough allergies can be.

So when are mages getting demesne summon back?

How did demesne summon work anyway? It was before me.

It was flow, but in reverse. More or less. Extremely quick, unresistable (?) summon to caster from in demesne. Druids never had it. (And IntoxicatingFlower is significantly more restricted!)

It was resistable instant single-target summon via generic summon resistances and cost 3p regardless of success or failure, must be in a demesne. Essentially the same as intoxicating flower once you have allergin levels.

Nydekion:

It was resistable instant single-target summon via generic summon resistances and cost 3p regardless of success or failure, must be in a demesne. Essentially the same as intoxicating flower once you have allergin levels.

I think you're understating the difference that allergy level requirement makes in comparison to old demesne summon, even if allergies are too easy to build on a target currently. Flower probably should require a higher level of allergy to work as well.

From what it sounds like, I know the first thing I'd do with that old summon is set a trigger for instantly summoning a target the moment they set foot in the demesne.

(That happened)

Not really. In its current state where allergy levels build passively (which basically means a hinder train until max levels are reached) and cannot be cured unless you step out of the meld. I mean, if it was changed so that allergin levels are cured fully if you lust the druid, that may work but as it stands it's dangerously close to what demesne summon was and essentially over-the-top for druids (and for any melding class) to have at this point.

Also, druids already have significant means to hinder someone from leaving their meld via briars (and pathtwist for Hartstone). Especially when you add the additional penalties imposed by allergy levels. Demesne summon on top of this is just not needed when you effectively can easily chase someone up to 29 additional rooms from the point you are fighting them in your meld. Add to this that druids can easily evade attack in their own melds due to having additional elevations to switch between and the ability to walk, unhindered, by their own briars. This basically means that for any class that can't quickly burst down a druid, they will never have a chance as now they are unable to attack fast enough to beat allergy levels and if they do, the druid just evades to cure and reset. This change hasn't created balance with druids, just made it far worse. Heh.

Svorai: As an answer to your previous question, being able to meld over your saplings is a significant advantage since now the order is forest -> sapling -> meld for a druid instead of terrain -> meld -> illusion for a mage. The advantage will always lie with the druid since the terrain change will be protected first.

IntoxicatingFlower might be really strong, but comparing it to old demesne summon is laughable. When a druid can trigger demesne watch to summon you instantly into a statue, then you can make that comparison. From the sounds of things, they've got to at least engage you first before they'll have the allergen levels to summon, which makes a huge difference in how stupid of a skill it is or is not.

Nydekion:

Not really. In its current state where allergy levels build passively (which basically means a hinder train until max levels are reached) and cannot be cured unless you step out of the meld. I mean, if it was changed so that allergin levels are cured fully if you lust the druid, that may work but as it stands it's dangerously close to what demesne summon was and essentially over-the-top for druids (and for any melding class) to have at this point.

Also, druids already have significant means to hinder someone from leaving their meld via briars (and pathtwist for Hartstone). Especially when you add the additional penalties imposed by allergy levels. Demesne summon on top of this is just not needed when you effectively can easily chase someone up to 29 additional rooms from the point you are fighting them in your meld. Add to this that druids can easily evade attack in their own melds due to having additional elevations to switch between and the ability to walk, unhindered, by their own briars. This basically means that for any class that can't quickly burst down a druid, they will never have a chance as now they are unable to attack fast enough to beat allergy levels and if they do, the druid just evades to cure and reset. This change hasn't created balance with druids, just made it far worse. Heh.

Svorai: As an answer to your previous question, being able to meld over your saplings is a significant advantage since now the order is forest -> sapling -> meld for a druid instead of terrain -> meld -> illusion for a mage. The advantage will always lie with the druid since the terrain change will be protected first.

Except not really! Demesne only passively raises allergies if you are in an adjacent room or in room with the druid, and only then if they've used the active power on you! Additionally, outside of their room, it raises only as fast as it decays, so you don't really accrue levels outside of the room of the druid! Pollen levels probably do raise up too quickly, but that'll be adjusted asap if it turns out to be a problem (I have a slot reserved for it already!). I kinda laugh at the idea that briars+this makes it impossible to leave a druid's demesne or traverse it, it's only on a single focused target who has to have been in the druid's room for a while! (And it's not "effectively" a 29 room chase, that's what you call "optimally", and it's not the usual case.)

The way I look at Iflower is a nerfed version of Empress. It requires you to engage the target before it works (like having to fling lust), and costs resources (both 3p per attempt and allergy levels that are consumed), but unlike Lust/Empress it doesn't work unless you are both in the demesne and can be resisted, but can't be rejected easily! Keep in mind that monolith sigils and equivalent effects (presumably distort) blocks this!

EDIT: The point people were trying to make on the sapling thing is that it's all well and good, but if you stay at terrain/unterrain/terrain/unterrain, it doesn't matter what the rest of the steps are.

EDIT2: For reference, I'm going to re-test how many levels of allergies Iflower consumes, but I'm pretty sure it's 3. That's means the druid is going to have to engage you in combat to get you up to at least 6 or so levels, as them leaving (probably via FORESTCAST CENTER) makes your allergies decay at one level per 5 seconds, giving them only a short window if you resist!

Exclaimation points do not make your point any stronger, by the way, nor does making hyperboles of my statements.

The fact of the matter is that no melding class needs any form of demesne summon because they are able to control the location where a fight occurs most of the time without it. I mention briars because this is a form of movement control only available to druids and can hinder movement through a demesne a fair bit, never once did I say it was infallible (though with pathtwist and intoxiciating flower, it's getting quite close to it and any escape is really by error of the druid and not game mechanics).

You simply need to ask yourself, if mages got demesne summon back that required freezing levels (let's say incurable while in the meld or hunger levels - also incurable whilst in the meld) would you think this would make the skill "balanced" because of a requirement that is passively accrued over time with minimal effort?

P.S.: If you answer yes, please envoy it to be added to the respective skillsets. Just saying.

We will wait and see how things turn out.

These reports have created some new bugs that will be ironed out, and as has been pointed out allergies accrue rather fast. I also agree demesne summon was removed for a reason, and should not have been regiven even with a "cost" of some allergies. Perhaps at least make it good chance to fail the movement if we cannot remove it entirely.

As someone stated earlier IG, what we are seeing is encouraging the return of "I will not fight in your meld even if you do not want to fight out of it". Allergies are too easy to build and are too powerful when at high levels.

Veyrzhul, I disagree with any buffs to the effect of allergies. As it is allergies are powerful in meld, if they were even more powerful it would just be a nightmare. It is bad enough we added a run or die mechanic without another cure.

Preserve has not been used to great effect since Narsrim, and its buffs have included faster eq, stripping purg balance, higher damage, and lower cost. Most people would call that a home run in every way.

@Svorai:
I think you're missing a key point: Druids can meld over saplings that they create, while Mages cannot meld over illusions they make.

Thus, for a druid, you have basically 3 stages to the meld war, the back and forth terraining with forestcast forceforest/infest/purify, then the back and forth with forecastcast sapling/chop tree, then melding. Once you have the sapling up, you're A] free to meld and B] are 2 enemy EQs away from having your meld broken.

Since mages can't meld over illusions, their melding order is back and forth with foocast forcefoo, then meld, then weave terrain. So when you get to the "step 2: meld" part of the plan, the other melder can reset you back to step 1 by casting their terrain spell if they're in the room. You absolutely have to get the enemy mage/druid out of the room for steps 2 and 3 as a mage, or you're not going to get your meld established at all.

This means that a mage (or a group with a mage melder) that wants to contest an enemy meld needs to not only win the back and forth terraining contest, but they also have to do it in a way that the enemy melder is unable to interfere for at least 8 seconds while the mage melds and weaves terrain. A druid (or group with druid melder) just needs to win the sapling/chopping back and forth, which is perfectly possible to do with an enemy still in the room, using whatever method you used to win the terrain back and forth.

Or, to look at it from another perspective, if you want to go from fully protected enemy meld to fully protected allied meld in a group combat situation, you need 2 druids and a chopper/realitychecker. The chopper/realitchecker chops or realitychecks as appropriate at the 0s mark, the first druid forestcasts forest at the 1s mark, the second druid casts a sapling and the 2s mark,the first druid melds at the 5s mark and then finally the second druid recasts sapling at the 6s mark. A mage group doing that needs 3 mages and a chopper/realitychecker so that the chopper/realitychecker can chop/realitycheck at 0s, mage one can cast terrain at 1s, mage two can meld at 3s and mage three can weave an illusion at 4s. If they skip out on mage three and try to have mage one do the illusion at 5s, the enemy melder will cast terrain while mage one is still getting EQ back from the terrain spell. And that's not even counting the chance of someone jumping a cue and putting down the illusion before the meld goes up or something equally daft.

Greleag:

@Svorai:
I think you're missing a key point: Druids can meld over saplings that they create, while Mages cannot meld over illusions they make.

Thus, for a druid, you have basically 3 stages to the meld war, the back and forth terraining with forestcast forceforest/infest/purify, then the back and forth with forecastcast sapling/chop tree, then melding. Once you have the sapling up, you're A] free to meld and B] are 2 enemy EQs away from having your meld broken.

Since mages can't meld over illusions, their melding order is back and forth with foocast forcefoo, then meld, then weave terrain. So when you get to the "step 2: meld" part of the plan, the other melder can reset you back to step 1 by casting their terrain spell if they're in the room. You absolutely have to get the enemy mage/druid out of the room for steps 2 and 3 as a mage, or you're not going to get your meld established at all.

This means that a mage (or a group with a mage melder) that wants to contest an enemy meld needs to not only win the back and forth terraining contest, but they also have to do it in a way that the enemy melder is unable to interfere for at least 8 seconds while the mage melds and weaves terrain. A druid (or group with druid melder) just needs to win the sapling/chopping back and forth, which is perfectly possible to do with an enemy still in the room, using whatever method you used to win the terrain back and forth.

Or, to look at it from another perspective, if you want to go from fully protected enemy meld to fully protected allied meld in a group combat situation, you need 2 druids and a chopper/realitychecker. The chopper/realitchecker chops or realitychecks as appropriate at the 0s mark, the first druid forestcasts forest at the 1s mark, the second druid casts a sapling and the 2s mark,the first druid melds at the 5s mark and then finally the second druid recasts sapling at the 6s mark. A mage group doing that needs 3 mages and a chopper/realitychecker so that the chopper/realitychecker can chop/realitycheck at 0s, mage one can cast terrain at 1s, mage two can meld at 3s and mage three can weave an illusion at 4s. If they skip out on mage three and try to have mage one do the illusion at 5s, the enemy melder will cast terrain while mage one is still getting EQ back from the terrain spell. And that's not even counting the chance of someone jumping a cue and putting down the illusion before the meld goes up or something equally daft.

If you had three mages co-ordinating like that, you could also just insta telebomb upon entry and then you don't need to worry about the druid anymore.

This was going to be a long and winding post, but damn you Raeri for summing it up:

Druids have it easier for melds because they kind of need it.

Lehki:

Druids definitely have an advantage in saplings over terrain. Though in 1 druid vs 1 mage trying to spread/hold a meld, without anybody else bothering them, it still really just comes down to who's got a faster EQ, even with that advantage. It's almost pointless to do that back and forth with forcing terrain, but if you stop to just try to attack the other person, they're going to meld, so you're kind of stuck doing it and it's a stupid waste of power. I hate getting into those fights.

I found those fights of ours fun every now and then, even when I ended up dead to stupid DeathProph :(.

Raeri:

If you had three mages co-ordinating like that, you could also just insta telebomb upon entry and then you don't need to worry about the druid anymore.

Because there's three combat active Telepaths in any one org these days.

I don't think it's good to consider current guild populations when trying to balance things.

Malarious:

Preserve has not been used to great effect since Narsrim, and its buffs have included faster eq, stripping purg balance, higher damage, and lower cost. Most people would call that a home run in every way.

Narsrim was amazing at everything he tried: this would also include his stints in Hartstone and Blacktalon. If we're to gauge the viability of a class on his skill alone, druids shouldn't have been buffed at all. That said, he had a fairly hard time preserving targets one on one. Not sure where you're getting your information. He often complained about it to me and tried to slide a number of envoy suggestions through to fix it. If he pulled it off, it was mainly in groups and against a few people with awful curing.

Raeri:

If you had three mages co-ordinating like that, you could also just insta telebomb upon entry and then you don't need to worry about the druid anymore.

Agreed 100% there. There's a reason why druids should have the advantage when it comes to demenses.