Sakr2011-11-09 08:32:55
Everyone can get all trades. Hello skillflexing. The demigod and artifact additions just allow you to have more than one active.
Not everyone. It's possible sure, but with the lesson cost and everything, and 1000 more credits to skillflex. It's not entirely feasible.
BUT back to the topic - ok, this means that people should be getting more than one shop to sell specialized wares, but the existing artifacts for the shop (mainly dingbat, the rift remains untouched) are largely unnecessary or is a waste.
And I'm still up for policing ourselves. Everyone is feeling the lag, and if people understand that they themselves are the cause, maybe they will limit themselves.
Unknown2011-11-09 08:36:50
Self-policing has never really worked out.
Sakr2011-11-09 08:44:21
If the bigger shops do it, and the smaller shops follow suite or face repercussions from their guild or city?
Unknown2011-11-09 08:54:42
The only reason I can see you advocating self-policing instead of an actual limit would be a desire to push those limits without facing actual mechanical consequences.
Sakr2011-11-09 09:46:50
umm, no. It's more of understanding that the game is fine as it is, but people need to take care of it as it takes care of us.
edit:
If a closet was placed in a shop stockroom, and clothes were placed in it, would it be possible to sell the clothes from the closet? Same with racks and weapons, armor, and instruments?
Wouldn't that group up the items, so in the stockroom there is only one instead of 100 or 200? And then those items would sell out of the container, like figurines do with pedestals?
edit:
If a closet was placed in a shop stockroom, and clothes were placed in it, would it be possible to sell the clothes from the closet? Same with racks and weapons, armor, and instruments?
Wouldn't that group up the items, so in the stockroom there is only one instead of 100 or 200? And then those items would sell out of the container, like figurines do with pedestals?
Unknown2011-11-09 12:19:25
Falcon:
So if you want to stop these Walmarts get rid of the ability to get so many trades. Not slap restrictions on everyone who doesn't have them.
They existed and were running healthily long before skillflexing was introduced.
Anisu2011-11-09 12:21:12
It has nothing to do with grouping seriously, it is about the number of objects in lusternia, moving the problem from stockrooms to closets/racks/magic beans isn't going to help. Stop proposing things that do not address the problem.
Kiradawea2011-11-09 12:30:22
From what I gather, runebags function similarly to pocketbelts and rifts, so why not allow the shoprift to carry runes?
Ssaliss2011-11-09 12:49:49
Kialkarkea:
Stock Room bloat, not Please give me Cool Stuff.
While this is, indeed, "Cool Stuff" (I've asked for this on other occasions), it would also help with stockroom bloat. Instead of having one stockroom per shop, you'd instead have a single stockroom for multiple shops, meaning if you have two shops, you've suddenly halved the items you have stocked, total (assuming you'd stock the same things in all shops). If I were to get a manse shop and this option would become a reality, it'd mean I'd cut my stock down to a quarter of what I would otherwise stock.
Unknown2011-11-09 13:23:44
Falcon:
umm, no. It's more of understanding that the game is fine as it is, but people need to take care of it as it takes care of us.
edit:
If a closet was placed in a shop stockroom, and clothes were placed in it, would it be possible to sell the clothes from the closet? Same with racks and weapons, armor, and instruments?
Wouldn't that group up the items, so in the stockroom there is only one instead of 100 or 200? And then those items would sell out of the container, like figurines do with pedestals?
The game is lagging quite badly. It is not 'fine as it is'.
The purpose of this is to cut down the items in stockrooms. Making it so they can be grouped up in another container will not solve the problem.
Rifting is different because rift items are essentially 'destroyed' and tabs are just set on the amount available, so they don't clutter as much. Figurines on pedestals are different because a figurine is just one item, anyway, as opposed to your proposal which I assume would include many items in a container.
Unknown2011-11-09 16:22:23
Self policing is not viable; certain shopkeepers will constantly try to push the limit, leading to a constant struggle between admin and shopkeeper about this same subject.
Admin: "Cut down on your storerooms, you are causing database bloat."
Shopkeepers: "But we NEED all of these items or we can't make money!"
Unless we want to see this repeated ad nauseum, we need hard rules, preferably quickly.
The only problems that I see with a lower limit are origami and food. Both are items that get consumed often (I keep both Platter and Kirigami up more or less constantly), yet are single use and unriftable. Everything else? I'm perfectly happy with forcing shops to specialize. I would prefer that shopkeepers mostly stick to their own trade, else act as a sales agent for someone without a shop.
Admin: "Cut down on your storerooms, you are causing database bloat."
Shopkeepers: "But we NEED all of these items or we can't make money!"
Unless we want to see this repeated ad nauseum, we need hard rules, preferably quickly.
The only problems that I see with a lower limit are origami and food. Both are items that get consumed often (I keep both Platter and Kirigami up more or less constantly), yet are single use and unriftable. Everything else? I'm perfectly happy with forcing shops to specialize. I would prefer that shopkeepers mostly stick to their own trade, else act as a sales agent for someone without a shop.
Aubrey2011-11-09 18:51:15
foolofsound:
I would prefer that shopkeepers mostly stick to their own trade, else act as a sales agent for someone without a shop.
With a 250 limit, they couldn't really do both. That would suck for the shopkeeper if they gave up selling their own trade wares so that someone who can't afford a shop can sell theirs. But then again, it might not be as necessary for people to sell in shops, because it sounds like any shop limit will make customers have to seek out direct service more, since shops probably won't always have what you want, when you want it, anymore. So like my character who never gets business because she's not trans and has no shop might actually stand a chance at getting business. Guess that's a silver lining. In the end, I support reducing the limit, just not to such an extreme as 250, especially without combining it with other changes such as whatever mysterious vial changes Estarra has in mind. :)
Unknown2011-11-09 19:29:59
It seems the problem is, however, if we don't reduce it by that much we won't get rid of the lag.
Sakr2011-11-09 19:42:44
Alchemy, Artisan, Arts, Bookbinding, Brewmeister, Cooking, Enchanting , Forging, Herbalism, Jewelry, Tailoring. As far as trades will go, with what will be hit the hardest would be:
(Worst hit)
1. Tailoring / Forging
2. Bookbinding
3. Cooking
4. Arts
--------------------------------
5. Artisan / Tinkering
6. Jewelry/ Cosmic / Elementalism
7. Alchemy / Brewmeister
8. Herbalism
(Least hit)
1. Tailoring and forging because they already take a long time to sell, and that's with have dozens of designs available.
2. Bookbinding, due to the amount of time that will be needed to upkeep the shop.
4. Arts would be kind of borderline, due to how the tints are riftable and such. Maybe could be made into a general store as well.
---------------------
5. Not affected much at all. 250 slots that are more than the total available selling artisan designs, and there are a few useful tinkering abilities so both are safe.
6. Sells well, but not at a rate like bookbinding or cooking - so there is not much of a need to be constantly awake in game to upkeep a shop for these.
7. Kegs each stock a nice amount, and there are expansion runes available, and they fall under the 250 limit easily
8. Everything is riftable.
When these changes come into effect, Tailoring / Forging / Bookbinding / Cooking and maybe Arts I think would need help with the limit. 5-8 are pretty much safe and sound, if they go into a specialized store.
(Worst hit)
1. Tailoring / Forging
2. Bookbinding
3. Cooking
4. Arts
--------------------------------
5. Artisan / Tinkering
6. Jewelry/ Cosmic / Elementalism
7. Alchemy / Brewmeister
8. Herbalism
(Least hit)
1. Tailoring and forging because they already take a long time to sell, and that's with have dozens of designs available.
2. Bookbinding, due to the amount of time that will be needed to upkeep the shop.
4. Arts would be kind of borderline, due to how the tints are riftable and such. Maybe could be made into a general store as well.
---------------------
5. Not affected much at all. 250 slots that are more than the total available selling artisan designs, and there are a few useful tinkering abilities so both are safe.
6. Sells well, but not at a rate like bookbinding or cooking - so there is not much of a need to be constantly awake in game to upkeep a shop for these.
7. Kegs each stock a nice amount, and there are expansion runes available, and they fall under the 250 limit easily
8. Everything is riftable.
When these changes come into effect, Tailoring / Forging / Bookbinding / Cooking and maybe Arts I think would need help with the limit. 5-8 are pretty much safe and sound, if they go into a specialized store.
Unknown2011-11-09 19:58:46
Falcon:
1. Tailoring / Forging
I disagree. Most people don't buy prestocked weapons and armor; that is almost always a commissioned purchase. Many people have permanent custom clothing as well, or at least commission it every so often. You don't need giant selections of either.
2. Bookbinding
For origami of course. Little else need be stocked.
3. Cooking
This is a problem. Food has short decay time and platters/kebobs are used up quickly.
4. Arts
With the exception of vials these need not be stocked in great number. Most people who use the other items regularly can just make their own. Besides, tints and I believe blank runes are riftable.
--------------------------------
5. Artisan / Tinkering
Not sure why you would keep most of these items stocked. People tend to make big purchases like this infrequently, and generally on a commission basis.
6. Jewelry/ Cosmic / Elementalism
This might be hit a bit harder than you think. There a a good number of enchantments that people want as both rings and brooches.
7. Alchemy / Brewmeister
Not a problem.
8. Herbalism
Not a problem.
(Least hit)
Diamondais2011-11-09 20:05:14
Glad I'm not the only one who went "Who actually stocks forging stuff besides warrior guilds?"
Edit: Not to say that exact thought went through your mind, more of a doubt of actually stocking forging goods in bulk.
Edit: Not to say that exact thought went through your mind, more of a doubt of actually stocking forging goods in bulk.
Aithera2011-11-09 20:09:57
I'm not sure I completely understand the point of ranking which trade skills are going to be hit hardest, except to provoke discussions about what the right ranking is. (for the record, as a tailor myself, I disagree rather strongly at your assessment of tailors being worst off. Also given the limited clientele of forgers, I've always been under the impression that it's mostly commissions, also enchantments and jewelry are going to be hit hard, in an enchanter's case partly because due to the time consuming nature of enchanting doing it in bulk is preferred. At least with the enchanters I've worked with.)
Frankly, we'll adapt. Stores will be devoted almost wholly to cooking which isn't a bad thing, preserved food may become more common, origami may be hard for novices to find, but people will manage. None of the trade skills really "need" help, and most of the ideas proposed in this thread have been deemed impractical. It seems pointless to quibble about which one needs help most, instead of proposing concrete ideas for any of the ones that you think will be affected.
It would still be really nice if the limit on org shops was slightly higher, to encourage more interest in both owning one and patronizing them.
Frankly, we'll adapt. Stores will be devoted almost wholly to cooking which isn't a bad thing, preserved food may become more common, origami may be hard for novices to find, but people will manage. None of the trade skills really "need" help, and most of the ideas proposed in this thread have been deemed impractical. It seems pointless to quibble about which one needs help most, instead of proposing concrete ideas for any of the ones that you think will be affected.
It would still be really nice if the limit on org shops was slightly higher, to encourage more interest in both owning one and patronizing them.
Aubrey2011-11-09 20:15:31
Xyas:
It seems the problem is, however, if we don't reduce it by that much we won't get rid of the lag.
Oh I understand the problem. I just think we should look at it from a more dynamic view than just "tough cookies for you all who paid 1000 credits for the shop and hundreds of thousands of gold for your wares!" Combine a couple things, like whatever vial thing Estarra has in mind, maybe another change, and then you wouldn't have to make such DRASTIC cuts to shops. I do agree cuts should be made, I just think we should at least explore every option we can to make it more reasonable.
Falcon and Aithera... Tailors WOULD be among the hardest hit, especially those of us who still have a lot of slower-selling items in stock. Sure, going forward, I wouldn't stock so many of those, as most people would prefer to find a tailor for them anyway. But in the meantime what am I expected to do with what I already have in stock? Apparently we're supposed to cut their prices to practically nothing just to salvage a few sovereigns, and basically waste our investments. And some items, like packs and robes and boots, sell multiple times a day. There IS a demand for a variety of those tailoring items in shops.
Actually I'd add Arts to the list, even though it's not a trade, just because vials and such will be impossible to stock.
Aithera, I don't think the point was to "quibble," but perhaps to point out that some trades will be hit a LOT harder than others. At least that's my interpretation of the list. You mention novices, which is a good point, except I must disagree with your apparent view that it doesn't matter. I think novices should always be considered when making big game changes. They're the fresh blood, they're what makes the game grow. What happens if we continue to make it harder and harder for them to get started?
Unknown2011-11-09 20:19:59
Novices rarely bother with origami....
As for tailoring, surely you do not sell 250 items per day, or even per several days, so I don't think that this is a problem. As you said, many people commission clothing.
The problems lie in non-riftable, single use consumables, such as platters, kebobs, and origami. The bonuses from these don't last very long, and said items surely eat up a lot of valuable shop space.
As for tailoring, surely you do not sell 250 items per day, or even per several days, so I don't think that this is a problem. As you said, many people commission clothing.
The problems lie in non-riftable, single use consumables, such as platters, kebobs, and origami. The bonuses from these don't last very long, and said items surely eat up a lot of valuable shop space.
Enyalida2011-11-09 20:47:11
Tailoring would be hardest hit if there were decay times as well which is what (it sounds like) Aubrey is arguing against.
