Eventru:

(And that would cut down on, what, 1140 items at most, Kiradawea. :P At a glance there's roughly 100 or so shops at the aetherplex (PORTAL SEARCH SHOPS), add in the max per city possible x 6 that comes to around 280 shops (We can even assume there's 100 shops I'm not seeing), so 380 shops total. That's 1140 sigils, which doesn't account for how many won't be removed (abandoned) and is on the super optimistic side (IE it assumes all cities and communes have 30 shops - which it doesn't, Hallifax has 11, Celest has 23, Seren has 21, Mag has 18, Gaudi has 12, and Glom has 20 - that's 75 less shops than expected, so 225 less sigils, meaning only a possible 915 sigils are removed from the system. This also assumes there's as many shops I can't see as I can, on a quick portal search, which isn't super likely!).

As has been mentioned, this is also three less items that the shop keepers need in their stock room and counting against their limit.

Another thing is flowers, I'm not sure if there was any argument for not making them riftable. That's what? Over 7000 actual items potentially taken out of circulation, just from the aetherplex. With the sigils removed that's ~8000.

Things that are alterna-riftable (glowing gems, runes, motes, cards) have these built to any decent level? Can the ability to store them in the shop rift be added? Hartstone have over 500 runes sitting in the stock room that I can see from Dain. Looks like similar numbers in the Hartstone guild shop. Blacktalon may have similar stocks potentially, the mage guilds I am not certain about but possibly. If we say yes it's another 2000 to 6000.

Strange things like... sigils perhaps (Yes, they are produced by a tradeskill and have a decay... but so do feeds, how much would it matter if you could rift a sigil and draw it out with a decay timer?)

It might only be chipping away at the big 200k, but the more that is done the softer the blow will be.

The 250 item max is total number of items (not each type). This does not include what's in a shop rift.

My thought to have a basic shop max at 250 items is that is generally a reasonable, baseline amount (note that is basically what every IRE game enforces). I know people think 500 or 1000 items sounds more "reasonable" or somehow is a compromise as a baseline, but that just may not go far enough.

My thought to allow upgrades is that very few shopkeepers would want to spend that many credits to get a shop to 1000 items, so it would be more of a luxury that only those diehards would purchase as some sort of storage mechanism. Also, a sharp lowering in the price of shops may result in shops more easily purchasable and thus more shops would pop up which would defeat the purpose.

Thanks for the technical ideas and advice on how to lower database bloat, though everything significant that can be done either has been done or something we've already investigated or are investigating, including some arcane coding gymnastics (like wiping vials out of inventories on logout and storing information in a separate mysql database to rebuild on login). Technical, under-the-hood stuff is not really something I like going into detail on the forums which is why we generally keep that type of discussion at a minimum. Yeah, I know some of you are also coding gurus with great ideas--feel free to email Roark directly if you think we haven't thought of something that you'd like to share.

Anyway, this discussion is about limiting stockroom inventories. I've shared where I am in my thinking right now, but no final decisions have been made.

I just repeat my prior ideas, I know of at least 3 people who said they will leave lusty if their stuff starts to decay. We have allowed malls for so long that to suddenly remove them makes people feel like they were targetted after buying the artifact. And limiting to a solid 250 is horrible for: powers, vials, food, and origami. I do not use my shop really but letting 1 bookbinder use it I have over 500 items because origami dont have multiple uses.

If at all possible I would request that we examine the changes to vials, powerstones, and origami if nothing else which would also allow shops to stock these better. For reference:
Vials- Either double quantity held or allow BUY GARNET AS VIAL from a shop where vials are priced (a vial need not be in the shop. SHOP PRICE VIAL ). Making arty vials hold up to 1000 sips would help some too.

Powerstones- Full powerstones being riftable (like everything else from gem cutting). This would cut back considerably and right now I can see a few thousand powerstones we would never be able to hold onto. Unless some sort of refund is in place for that you will greatly adjust the market when powerstones are moved to 300 gold each.

Origami- Increase cost of origami items, make all of them get 5 uses per.

Flowers- Make flowers inriftable

Hope those help. Would hate to have shops take a major beating in some cases because of specific items held in bulk.

A question for Estarra: Is there a timeframe planned for the shop-change, or is it rather one of "the sooner, the better"? Personally, I wouldn't mind having the lag for another month if it meant we'd get more time to discuss it and for other "item-decluttering" changes (like making full powerstones riftable, if it's deemed suitable, etc) to go thruogh.

Ssaliss:

A question for Estarra: Is there a timeframe planned for the shop-change, or is it rather one of "the sooner, the better"? Personally, I wouldn't mind having the lag for another month if it meant we'd get more time to discuss it and for other "item-decluttering" changes (like making full powerstones riftable, if it's deemed suitable, etc) to go thruogh.

This is one of those things where we will have to bite the bullet. The more we look, the more we see how much of a problem it is. No matter how many "item-decluttering" changes we do will not be a substitute for the need to address stockrooms. But we definitely are looking at some of those types of ideas.

I'm not sure what more there is to discuss, but if you don't think you've expressed your opinion fully or have more ideas on how to approach putting limits on stockrooms, please share!

(BTW, arguments that start that "players will quit if you do/don't make this change" is not well received. We will do what is best for the game as a whole and not be cowed by threats.)

Why not have it like ship hull, where the size of your manse determines the size of your shop? That way if you invest more into the area surrounding your shop, your shop gets bigger (much like the economy grows with the growth of cities)

Of course, it'll need to change eventually. But personally, I'd rather it go in the order of "item-decluttering"->"stock-room limitation" than the other way around, even if it means keeping the lag around for a little longer. That's just my preference though, and since I'm far from a combattant, others could very well feel differently. And as for discussion... yeah, personally I'm all discussed out, but there'll always be other people tossing their ideas into the pile.

As for having the number of rooms having an effect in the size of a stockroom... Interesting thought. I think it'd basically mean that we'd still see large manse-malls though, which is what we're trying to remove (if I understood things correctly).

And also, if you devalue the shop miniature, allow people a full refund on it, because I know one of the reason I bought mine was to store items when i knew I was going to be away from the game for a while, and my potions alone go up to about 200 total

Edit: Or if you are going to do the limit, lower the price of manse shop artifacts, and give the people who already own it the upgrade to the higher limit

Ssaliss:

Of course, it'll need to change eventually. But personally, I'd rather it go in the order of "item-decluttering"->"stock-room limitation" than the other way around, even if it means keeping the lag around for a little longer. That's just my preference though, and since I'm far from a combattant, others could very well feel differently. And as for discussion... yeah, personally I'm all discussed out, but there'll always be other people tossing their ideas into the pile.

As for having the number of rooms having an effect in the size of a stockroom... Interesting thought. I think it'd basically mean that we'd still see large manse-malls though, which is what we're trying to remove (if I understood things correctly).

Well, if anything, if manse size is the limiting factor, it would help with gold sinks as well. You would take what you earn from the shop to upgrade your manse, and then with that comes the reward of increasing shop stock. It doesn't even have to be as many as hull, which is 50 hull per. You could do a base of 250, and add 25 per room to your stock room.

Oh, and to the enchantment cubes thing, why not just have a skill to enchant your stock room to sell each enchantment... i.e. For a full powerstone, you can enchant your stock room to sell kingdom, and then any enchantments bought come directly from your cube rather than having cubes carry the actual enchantment

Estarra:

(BTW, arguments that start that "players will quit if you do/don't make this change" is not well received. We will do what is best for the game as a whole and not be cowed by threats.)

Though in some cases, this is a valid concern? It can't possibly be 'best for the game as a whole' to have populations of the game quit.

From my understanding, there's a problem now.

Morshoth:

And also, if you devalue the shop miniature, allow people a full refund on it, because I know one of the reason I bought mine was to store items when i knew I was going to be away from the game for a while, and my potions alone go up to about 200 total

Edit: Or if you are going to do the limit, lower the price of manse shop artifacts, and give the people who already own it the upgrade to the higher limit

The issue, particularly with your edited solution, is that we have a problem now. So it makes no sense to leave everyone with their current stockrooms, and only apply changes to future shop owners, because that does not do anything to get rid of what is currently causing problems.


That said, I do agree with Ssaliss that it'll be easier to manage if we're allowed to phase things out of stock rooms, even at the price of another couple of months of lag, rather than having to completely ditch three quarters of our current stock.


And, again, I'd like to mention that lusternia has a much more varied, and more useful series of trade skills, which means that there's a lot more items that people want to sell than in several other ire games. So it would be very very very nice if some alternatives for selling trade skill products that do not involve cluttering the stock room could be looked at.

I think having org shops having a higher shop limit compared to manse shops is a good idea, and would make them more valuable in general.

I think the item declutterings goal seems more likely to avoid waste. If we take the 2000+ powerstones we see from the plex, this means at least 1800 powerstones will be decaying, this is huge, imagine this for every trade and shop. I dunno I guess we will see see, but can we at least step it a bit if we are dropping to 250? Limit to 1000 as of Date X, 750 as of Date Y, go in increments so people can adjust (and try to sell the several thousand extra items).

Someone mentioned it before and I would like to bring it up again, newer players may not get the benefits that older players have had. We see this with certain honours lines, and artifacts already, so it is something we already see in game.

Shops area problem now, imagine what it is going to be like in the future. I would be so bold to suggest quit selling the shop miniature all together and use it for special occasion such as these auctions that we see two or three times a year. This would cut future problem of build off while giving the option to sell the shops when you feel the game can handle it (would even say they will sell for more than the 1000 credits they cost now).

Cutting down on a bunch of small item will in the long run help as well. As it stands a manse shop will never be able to sell vials (vials are a good selling point so a lot are needed they sell fast) enchantments in any amount, and likely most will stop carrying novice equipment entirely. Personally I stock a lot so I am not having to restock on a daily basis, so ya I have a lot of stuff.

I really like the idea of being able to create say a vial when the gems are bought. If you are worried about the shop owner does not have the skill, a shop upgrade for it could work. So buy a miniature skill arts glasswork for a small handful of credits, do this with all arts item (this will cut the paint palettes (though getting a master one is another issue), rune stones, vials, pipes..) all these items are not rift able but what makes them is. I would make each of these individual, as the skills are, so you'd have ironwork, paperwork, glasswork and so on - this would be to cut the cost the artifact would cost instead of getting it all in one.

same thing could happen with enchanting, buy an upgrade for the shop that will allow for the enchanting to be done (though this would put our tradeskill of enchanting to being almost entirely useless) - the enchants would only be able to be done if a cube or powerstones were in the storeroom to power the enchantment that is being bought. This I would suggest being skill by skill. Recharging would be the same as it is now from cubes, same with enchanting robes and creating sigils (so enchant is not entirely useless). due to these actually being tradeskills should cost a bit more than say the arts ones.

I'd still rather see the limit set at 500 and with clearing up small things should help the bloat that the game is feeling right now. but going from unlimited to 250 total items is a huge slap in the face for those who do have larger shops and want to carry a lot. The changes to being able to skill flex and have more than one tradeskill probably made these problems worse because now we do not even have to seek others out to get the merchandise we want to carry.

Sojiro:

I think having org shops having a higher shop limit compared to manse shops is a good idea, and would make them more valuable in general.

Supporting this.
I've started making a list for what I'd like Moondancers to sell. The multiples of 20 to 50 items that are putting the count over the proposed 250 limit are those that are difficult to restock (finding a cook for platters hasn't been easy) or sell fast (wet-fold origami / kirigami) every two weeks.

Again, the Moondancers stock more in breadth than depth. Stores with depth, such as those specializing in jewellery or clothing, easily hit 1000.

After playing today, I'd much rather get rid of the lag. It's killing me.

Sojiro:

I think having org shops having a higher shop limit compared to manse shops is a good idea, and would make them more valuable in general.

This.

Also, I would rather limit shops and be lag free, than let people store thousands upon thousands of needles, powerstones, and useless junk while continuing to have our lag issues.

A way to link manse- and org-shops would be nice as well, for those that have both. Would allow you to stock both shops at once, and would also allow an org-shop to take advantage of an expanded manse-shop.

For the people who are saying a 250 item limit will be the worst thing ever because you cannot stock everything you ever wanted, I think that's a good thing. Not every shop should be a Walmart. If someone wanted to invest even more into their shop, it looks like they will get a chance to. For people who just want to pay the basic price, then you should just focus on what is most profitable for you to stock.