Eventru2011-12-08 03:12:47
You're welcome to take it however you please, though I must disagree with your conclusions that you've drawn, foolofsound.
We've said since the beginning, this report is not between the players at large and the admin - it's between Shuyin and the admin. It's his place to gather up what players feel is 'so obviously broken' and 'wildly imbalanced' that we're just 'too far removed to see'.
Shuyin's been charged with giving us these problems and suggestions or ideas for fixing them. Then the admin will go through it, and have a conversation with Shuyin - who was voted on to represent the players at large.
Ultimately, if he wants to leave it to you all to try and sort out the final product, that's his business. Given it's been two months and we still haven't received anything, I think the 'design by committee' mentality has fallen into the same path it always has in the past, though.
We've said since the beginning, this report is not between the players at large and the admin - it's between Shuyin and the admin. It's his place to gather up what players feel is 'so obviously broken' and 'wildly imbalanced' that we're just 'too far removed to see'.
Shuyin's been charged with giving us these problems and suggestions or ideas for fixing them. Then the admin will go through it, and have a conversation with Shuyin - who was voted on to represent the players at large.
Ultimately, if he wants to leave it to you all to try and sort out the final product, that's his business. Given it's been two months and we still haven't received anything, I think the 'design by committee' mentality has fallen into the same path it always has in the past, though.
Enyalida2011-12-08 03:22:51
Through no fault of the 'committee', though any sort of committee action was specifically disavowed by Estarra. The problem is that we can dialogue with Shuyin all we want, but in the end it's not up to him. He and we can think something is a perfectly fine idea, and have it rejected out of (what seems like from this side) thin air. This is the standard complaint about the Envoy system in general, which has been recognized as a problem from the other side, as evidenced in the change of policy regarding Fury decisions. I think that some people thought that part of the point of a big and specifically forum driven special report would be that all sides would have at least some input. By sides, of course, I don't mean different sides of the playerbase, though that plays a part in it.
We've reached a juncture where most of what we want to say has been said, and we've come mostly to an agreement of what we think will work. That's not to say that you think it would work, so all of that could have been for no reason. I have a feeling that after the feedback, there will be anther big round but we will hit a similar wall, at least on the archetype threads. What I'm afraid of is that the second submittal will be final, no further talk, and that nothing will have been solved at that point.
EDIT: So. I guess what I'm looking for is a thumbs up/thumbs down and an assurance that the door to changes won't be slammed in our face at the second direction check. Please, no magic genie: three wishes only, too damn bad if that last one dropped you down a snakepit.
We've reached a juncture where most of what we want to say has been said, and we've come mostly to an agreement of what we think will work. That's not to say that you think it would work, so all of that could have been for no reason. I have a feeling that after the feedback, there will be anther big round but we will hit a similar wall, at least on the archetype threads. What I'm afraid of is that the second submittal will be final, no further talk, and that nothing will have been solved at that point.
EDIT: So. I guess what I'm looking for is a thumbs up/thumbs down and an assurance that the door to changes won't be slammed in our face at the second direction check. Please, no magic genie: three wishes only, too damn bad if that last one dropped you down a snakepit.
Malarious2011-12-08 03:57:01
Orclach: increase dex by +1
Their int and cha are low enough to warrant at least that.
Krokani have better stats without the huge weakness to fire. So orclach +1 sounds fine. If we want to drop fire weakness 1 give em a slightly lower cutting resist.
Their int and cha are low enough to warrant at least that.
Krokani have better stats without the huge weakness to fire. So orclach +1 sounds fine. If we want to drop fire weakness 1 give em a slightly lower cutting resist.
Unknown2011-12-08 04:02:14
I was probably overly harsh with my previous rant. I really do feel that the admins have been doing a better job with the envoy system and various other fixes then they had in the past. I do agree with Enyalida though; please don't allow us only a single rework on these changes; many of them are too important to fall by the wayside.
Unknown2011-12-08 14:36:00
Malarious:
Orclach: increase dex by +1
Their int and cha are low enough to warrant at least that.
Krokani have better stats without the huge weakness to fire. So orclach +1 sounds fine. If we want to drop fire weakness 1 give em a slightly lower cutting resist.
That's fair. Certainly compared to Krokani, giving a +1 dex to Orclach seems fair.
Regarding the fire weakness, I'd rather keep it at level 3 and keep the level 2 cutting resist, were it up to me. I could link obesefessors as an orclach without completely exploding. It is high, but orclach are otherwise pretty tough, so generally I could deal with it.
Also, the marginally increased chance of seeing orclach monks is a side benefit.
Eventru2011-12-08 16:31:35
Enyalida:
Through no fault of the 'committee', though any sort of committee action was specifically disavowed by Estarra. The problem is that we can dialogue with Shuyin all we want, but in the end it's not up to him. He and we can think something is a perfectly fine idea, and have it rejected out of (what seems like from this side) thin air. This is the standard complaint about the Envoy system in general, which has been recognized as a problem from the other side, as evidenced in the change of policy regarding Fury decisions. I think that some people thought that part of the point of a big and specifically forum driven special report would be that all sides would have at least some input. By sides, of course, I don't mean different sides of the playerbase, though that plays a part in it.
We've reached a juncture where most of what we want to say has been said, and we've come mostly to an agreement of what we think will work. That's not to say that you think it would work, so all of that could have been for no reason. I have a feeling that after the feedback, there will be anther big round but we will hit a similar wall, at least on the archetype threads. What I'm afraid of is that the second submittal will be final, no further talk, and that nothing will have been solved at that point.
EDIT: So. I guess what I'm looking for is a thumbs up/thumbs down and an assurance that the door to changes won't be slammed in our face at the second direction check. Please, no magic genie: three wishes only, too damn bad if that last one dropped you down a snakepit.
Don't mistake our obliging as agreeing something is a problem. I'm not saying it wasn't, but envoys asked for more detailed rejections, so we gave it to them.
This was never a "forum report". It's a Shuyin report. How Shuyin chooses to gather that information is up to him. As I said, both sides will be involved - Shuyin and the admin will have a wondrous give-and-take.
If Shuyin had decided he wanted nothing from the playerbase and came up with it all himself, that would have been his decision. The continued disavowal of design by committed isn't one of dislike or preference, it's born from the fact every attempt (four monk guilds, construct conflict, and aetherspace) was generally a pretty big flop. Even as admin, while things may be brainstormed collectively, there's very little that is designed by "committee". Often times a design of (an area, skillset, what have you) is handled by one or two people, generally one, and then those interested are welcome to comment. Committee design only proves the adage, "Too many cooks spoil the pot."
Once we receive the "final" report, after we've given our comments and Shuyin's had time to change and adjust and what have you, and changes are coded and put in - it will be done, I imagine. I sincerely doubt we're looking for an on-going, years-long, "Well what we did before wasn't enough/we don't like what was decided/you introduced a bard guild everything's imbalanced druids need new skills to kill warriors because of it, we need more!" type of back and forth.
Chade2011-12-08 23:35:14
Sojiro:
That's about it really.
I'd much rather address the bottom 5 only rather than open up the can of worms on races which may or may not need tweaks. If faeling get adjusted, nothing stops viscanti, taurian, etc. to get their own set of suggestions, then we might a well look at every race that exists in the game. We can leave that for an actual race report.
RE: topic of thread - anyone have other thoughts on what to do about the classes?
Separate report dealing with classes is probably the best idea. They're likely to be far more contentious changes than the ones you've listed here.
Malarious2011-12-11 05:24:48
Rainydays:
That's fair. Certainly compared to Krokani, giving a +1 dex to Orclach seems fair.
Regarding the fire weakness, I'd rather keep it at level 3 and keep the level 2 cutting resist, were it up to me. I could link obesefessors as an orclach without completely exploding. It is high, but orclach are otherwise pretty tough, so generally I could deal with it.
Also, the marginally increased chance of seeing orclach monks is a side benefit.
Even with the changes its unlikely we will see Orclach monks because they are always outclassed. Orcs low stats make them cringe worthy when compared to kephera, illithoid, aslaran, loboshigaru, krokani, or even human. But the flavor orcs have in lusty is big stupid ugly things, so they are not likely to get more cha or int anytime soon. I mean heck, At that point go taurian, dex is not very useful for a monk and taurian has more con and str, with a minor penalty, and can rage for more racial strength. But I would still like to see some love for orclach, maybe when new guilds or skills come out they will equal out a bit.
Qistrel2011-12-16 03:28:18
What about giving Orclach bonus str/dex for being ur'Guard?
Orclach Legionnaire?
Orclach Legionnaire?
Unknown2011-12-16 03:45:39
What about giving Orclach bonus str/dex for being ur'Guard?
Orclach Legionnaire?
Estarra said more spec races weren't happening.
Qistrel2011-12-16 09:05:50
Still, it would be nice to have a flavour name for orclach in Mag, like how doing the UV epic makes you a royal kephera, but doesn't actually change your stats. (Stat boost is only if the Queen of Queens is alive. The two do not necessarily equate.) Though, I suppose this is the wrong thread for this idea.
Unknown2011-12-16 09:09:45
Keep in mind that Orchlach aren't supposed to be partial to Magnagora. They actually devolve to orcs under the Taint. Orclach were the Old Empire's shock troops, so they should be spread out across the old imperial cities.
Unknown2011-12-16 19:04:41
Keep in mind that Orchlach aren't supposed to be partial to Magnagora. They actually devolve to orcs under the Taint. Orclach were the Old Empire's shock troops, so they should be spread out across the old imperial cities.
True, but they are partial to the Ur'Guard, a Magnagora guild, and by extension Urlach, whose Tomb is one of Mag's constructs. New spec races are still a moot point.
Eventru2011-12-19 16:58:33
foolofsound:
True, but they are partial to the Ur'Guard, a Magnagora guild, and by extension Urlach, whose Tomb is one of Mag's constructs. New spec races are still a moot point.
It's not Urlach's tomb - he doesn't have one, he's not dead (per se). Its reference to Urlach is probably more referring to the vernal god that inspired its construction, not whose corpse is among those within.
Orclach can fall on either side of the field. The Ur'Guard they're "partial to", as you say, despise the Ur'Guard in Magnagora. Shallach has no love for the weaklings in the city to the south.
But you're right on one thing - more spec races are really unlikely to occur.
Unknown2011-12-19 19:00:40
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/per_se
Qistrel2011-12-19 21:13:51
Eventru:
But you're right on one thing - more spec races are really unlikely to occur.
OK, but does this include not-actually-a-spec-just-a-name-change, like royal kephera?
Sylphas2011-12-19 22:28:52
Extra-fluffy furrikin?
Raeri2011-12-20 00:08:59
OK, but does this include not-actually-a-spec-just-a-name-change, like royal kephera?
Don't those get a +1 to all, or is that just when the QoQs is up?
Ssaliss2011-12-20 07:37:51
Kephera/Illithoid only get bonuses when their overlords is up, yes (Queen of Queens and Avatar of Illith(?)).
Eventru2011-12-20 08:09:19
Zarquan:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/per_se
I'd just woken up. :( I can't believe I did that. *erases evidence*
