Eventru2011-12-20 08:10:54
OK, but does this include not-actually-a-spec-just-a-name-change, like royal kephera?
I don't see us adding more of those without a good reason to (like the illithoid/keph quests).
Sorry.
Revan2011-12-20 08:22:31
Just to add to the discussion.. I find it a bit.. odd.. that the Ur'Guard of Shallach still "despise" the Mag ur'Guard when a) Celest/Seren/etc repeatedly hunt them down and B) Mag is the only nation that actually protects them from meeting such an end. You'd think their opinion would change when they come to realize "Hey wait a second, they're the only nation that really gives a hoot about us". Further, ir is Ur'Guard decree that Shallach be watched and defended.. so really their disgust by this point ought to be unwarranted, all things considered..
Eventru2011-12-20 08:33:50
Revan:
Just to add to the discussion.. I find it a bit.. odd.. that the Ur'Guard of Shallach still "despise" the Mag ur'Guard when a) Celest/Seren/etc repeatedly hunt them down and B) Mag is the only nation that actually protects them from meeting such an end. You'd think their opinion would change when they come to realize "Hey wait a second, they're the only nation that really gives a hoot about us". Further, ir is Ur'Guard decree that Shallach be watched and defended.. so really their disgust by this point ought to be unwarranted, all things considered..
They're a bunch of undead soldiers.
I never said they were particularly intelligent, reasonable nor rational.
Revan2011-12-20 09:58:47
... Touche, good sir
Neos2011-12-20 11:46:47
Eventru:
I'd just woken up. :( I can't believe I did that. *erases evidence*
It's okay, I have it on video.
Unknown2011-12-20 17:07:17
Yay Orclach discussion! I went monk recently so I could be Orclach again in no small part. (Yes I was told it was ill advised. So I took psymet, because one way to cover up the first error is to make an even bigger one!)
My selfish daydream is an Orclach bard spec. I think I made up a nice concept for them in my head, but obviously its just a pipe dream that really only appeals to me likely as not.
My view on it-
The Ur'guard of the old Empire were a symbiotic sub culture. When Kethuru struck, concentrations of them were likely spread across various hot spots in the Basin, which quite possibly saved their race from complete disaster.
Since Shallach fell to the taint, the Ur'guard, and by extention the general warrior culture of the Orclach, lost their nerve center. As a result, any groups of Orclach about the basin were left to their own initiative. Some may have aligned with one surviving organization or another, or disbanded, or simply kept on with their own small communities. As a result, despite being originally based near the epicenter of the Cosmic Hope disaster, as a people, they were uprooted and no longer had a region to call their own.
Orclach faced a two edged sword with the taint- on the one hand, for a lucky few it seemed to grant the revered status of undeath. On the other, it warped victims in to orcs (my theory being, in the initial sentient taint, Kethuru was consuming the excoroperditio essence originally of Erlechtoch, sharded down in to the Orclach from Orlachmar, from the living, and thus turning them in to Orcs. The less common death-undeath transformation interrupted this feeding, and so spared those Orclach the same fate. That's pure speculation, of course, as there's no real evidence on the topic I've seen in game!)
After the taint settled in to its current, non-sentient form, the Orclach no longer had to fear being warped in to orcs. Some were obviously enthralled by the possibilities of the taint, more specifically its relation to undeath, which they hadn't been able to manage since the Vernal Wars. Others could easily have decided that the taint's undeath was not Urlach's undeath, and was an unholy shortcut and abomination. While the fledgling New Celest may well have benefited from Orclah who had renounced the taint, others may have feared persecution for their beliefs from a city that found itself suddenly and violently opposed to the state of undeath.
If there's any support for an Orclach spec of any sort in existing material, that's it.
For my pipe-dream bard spec, they would be like Skalds, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald) keeping an oral tradition of heroic/epic Orclach history through their songs and stories.
Silly as it is, it is still fun to talk about. Though we've badly hijacked the thread at this point- so I'll take a moment to say once again-
I prefer Orclach the way they are now, compared to what they would be with slightly increased stats and reduced resistances. I'm not adverse to simply adding a stat point if it is deemed necessary, but I feel the mash of resists, regen, some low stats, and even the fire penalty give Orclach something unique.
(also, I'm getting away with Orlach monk nicely, at least for purposes of bashing!)
My selfish daydream is an Orclach bard spec. I think I made up a nice concept for them in my head, but obviously its just a pipe dream that really only appeals to me likely as not.
My view on it-
The Ur'guard of the old Empire were a symbiotic sub culture. When Kethuru struck, concentrations of them were likely spread across various hot spots in the Basin, which quite possibly saved their race from complete disaster.
Since Shallach fell to the taint, the Ur'guard, and by extention the general warrior culture of the Orclach, lost their nerve center. As a result, any groups of Orclach about the basin were left to their own initiative. Some may have aligned with one surviving organization or another, or disbanded, or simply kept on with their own small communities. As a result, despite being originally based near the epicenter of the Cosmic Hope disaster, as a people, they were uprooted and no longer had a region to call their own.
Orclach faced a two edged sword with the taint- on the one hand, for a lucky few it seemed to grant the revered status of undeath. On the other, it warped victims in to orcs (my theory being, in the initial sentient taint, Kethuru was consuming the excoroperditio essence originally of Erlechtoch, sharded down in to the Orclach from Orlachmar, from the living, and thus turning them in to Orcs. The less common death-undeath transformation interrupted this feeding, and so spared those Orclach the same fate. That's pure speculation, of course, as there's no real evidence on the topic I've seen in game!)
After the taint settled in to its current, non-sentient form, the Orclach no longer had to fear being warped in to orcs. Some were obviously enthralled by the possibilities of the taint, more specifically its relation to undeath, which they hadn't been able to manage since the Vernal Wars. Others could easily have decided that the taint's undeath was not Urlach's undeath, and was an unholy shortcut and abomination. While the fledgling New Celest may well have benefited from Orclah who had renounced the taint, others may have feared persecution for their beliefs from a city that found itself suddenly and violently opposed to the state of undeath.
The last known network of Urlach's gates was in Shallach and controlled by those orclachs who served the Holy Celestine Empire as holy defenders. When Shallach fell to the Taint, it is interesting to note that those orclach who succumbed to the mutations of the Taint degenerated into the pitiful creatures known as orcs, while the orclach who held their forms (and died) transformed into the most powerful of the undead lords, perhaps an indication that Urlach's presence is still manifest amongst the orclach.
If there's any support for an Orclach spec of any sort in existing material, that's it.
For my pipe-dream bard spec, they would be like Skalds, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald) keeping an oral tradition of heroic/epic Orclach history through their songs and stories.
Silly as it is, it is still fun to talk about. Though we've badly hijacked the thread at this point- so I'll take a moment to say once again-
I prefer Orclach the way they are now, compared to what they would be with slightly increased stats and reduced resistances. I'm not adverse to simply adding a stat point if it is deemed necessary, but I feel the mash of resists, regen, some low stats, and even the fire penalty give Orclach something unique.
(also, I'm getting away with Orlach monk nicely, at least for purposes of bashing!)
Qistrel2011-12-21 09:56:04
Why does adding a point of dexterity require their resistances to be reduced? Surely the point is to improve Orclach so that they're played a little more?
Malarious2011-12-21 22:33:02
We were saying the dex alone is not worth a reduction, if we wanted something else (like lower fire resist) then sure.
Enyalida2011-12-23 00:10:28
Status report?
Enyalida2011-12-24 06:25:59
Sorry about the double post but...
This thread has been sitting here for 20 days at this point, is this what's going to go in the first submittal, and when will that be? I understand not wanting to really churn away during christmas, but I think that most of what's going to be said here has been said. The sooner we get this very first draft up for talk with admins, the sooner we can get to second draft, making the fixes many of us feel cannot wait, to help the game, fit in with admin expectations, after hearing back from them.
It looks like the consensus was to send all the class ideas at a separate time, because they are more contentious and complicated then the changes to everything else combined. The only concern people raised that hasn't been dealt with is what to do about Orclach. That seems like a pretty easy problem to resolve, and even if not resolved.... this isn't the final draft, so if there needs to be a +/-1 change made at a later time, it can be made then.
This thread has been sitting here for 20 days at this point, is this what's going to go in the first submittal, and when will that be? I understand not wanting to really churn away during christmas, but I think that most of what's going to be said here has been said. The sooner we get this very first draft up for talk with admins, the sooner we can get to second draft, making the fixes many of us feel cannot wait, to help the game, fit in with admin expectations, after hearing back from them.
It looks like the consensus was to send all the class ideas at a separate time, because they are more contentious and complicated then the changes to everything else combined. The only concern people raised that hasn't been dealt with is what to do about Orclach. That seems like a pretty easy problem to resolve, and even if not resolved.... this isn't the final draft, so if there needs to be a +/-1 change made at a later time, it can be made then.
Unknown2011-12-24 07:45:51
Yeah, I'm gonna send this after the holidays. It's pretty much done except for the class stuff, but I was hoping more people would chime in about the special report as a whole.
RE: class stuff - still would like more people participating there, else I'm gonna have to make calls based off what people have posted there so far.
RE: class stuff - still would like more people participating there, else I'm gonna have to make calls based off what people have posted there so far.
Eventru2011-12-25 03:06:38
We're only accepting one report (albeit several times over for review/reworking)
There's no "coming back later and doing a second to cover more and different stuff".
I also suspect "let's submit everything but classes and just add them in on the ultra final sudden death match report" will likely not go over well.
The report's purpose is to address all of the big "obvious imbalances" that "everyone knows about" that we're just "too dumb/blind/distant/ignorant to see".
There's no "coming back later and doing a second to cover more and different stuff".
I also suspect "let's submit everything but classes and just add them in on the ultra final sudden death match report" will likely not go over well.
The report's purpose is to address all of the big "obvious imbalances" that "everyone knows about" that we're just "too dumb/blind/distant/ignorant to see".
Enyalida2011-12-25 03:55:22
I don't think it's going to work for the classes, then, and I do think they need it.
Unknown2011-12-25 04:24:42
Dessicate is a really, really, really bad idea.
Eventru2011-12-25 04:41:22
Enyalida:
I don't think it's going to work for the classes, then, and I do think they need it.
Either classes are an overwhelming problem that can't be fixed via envoys, or they aren't.
If the former, I can't see why Shuyin can't (or shouldn't) include it in the Special Report. If the belief is they're too 'contentious' and will take months (more) to come upon what they think are suitable solutions, maybe the real solution is to simply state what you believe are problems ("Druids are too sap heavy", "Illuminati have Shuyin", "Nerf Lack of Weather"), why you believe they're problems ("I hate sap/it's useless in group combat","He pwnz me","Some idiot keeps pointing out that hail doesn't happen with the wounded sky every time I make 'hail/hail' jokes on CT!!!1"), and how big of a problem you think it is. Then let him worry about solutions.
However, if the latter, then they should be fixed via the envoys.
Though if it's the former, I'd ask myself if the question is the class skills, or the very nature of the class/archetype that you (collectively speaking) have a problem with. If you (again, broadly speaking) think the solution is to redesign skillsets or combat mechanics, you may want to consider re-thinking your solution and/or the problem.
Saran2011-12-25 09:26:50
Eventru:
Though if it's the former, I'd ask myself if the question is the class skills, or the very nature of the class/archetype that you (collectively speaking) have a problem with. If you (again, broadly speaking) think the solution is to redesign skillsets or combat mechanics, you may want to consider re-thinking your solution and/or the problem.
Mechanics need to change, especially if they are considered issues for archetypes with probably the lowest average players and even more so if a game is in continual development. This game has changed since it was first released, sometimes this means that things that used to be... okay, are not any more and issues that were always present become apparent.
Unknown2012-01-14 04:56:06
Could we have a status update? It's been a month and a half since anything was said on the main thread and a week sine anything was said period on the report.
