Druken:


Woo, it's fun, and if you take a shot for every synonym for "shadow" we throw around, you're in for a real treat.

Luring me to Glomdoring with promises of intoxication? How devious.

I also know that my post doesn't offer any solutions for you, and I see how flimsy our arguments may seem because we are on the "winning" side. People who read what we are writing are probably going to scoff and shrug off our ideas because "of course we're happy, we're winning."

Consider for a moment, though, that maybe Talan and Alacardael aren't just happy because they're winning, but that maybe they're happy because the things they are doing, which they've shared in some ways here, on a daily basis, are actually contributing to the warmth of Glomdoring's overall playerbase. The things that I do, regularly, are all about keeping the newbies excited and making the non-coms help me promote our overall mentality of "happy because the alternative isn't an option".

Propaganda works!

ForgotOldForumName:

The thing is, if orgs can keep their players, no mechanic fix will be needed. I can almost guarantee you that even if the admin made some mechanical changes, it wouldn't do much good. It's down to the orgs themselves to keep the players that come there. Let's face it; most new chars are probably going to be alts. These people know which orgs are more entertaining to play in.

I agree with this 100%. I, personally, could care less whether or not we "lose" raids, etc, all of the time. Yes, it is nice when we win, but combat is not the only aspect of the game. Plus, everytime we get raided, it's just another chance to try out some new things and work on making myself a better combatant (I don't enjoy doing spars. 1vs1 is unrealistic). It's all a matter of perspective and what you do with what you've got. I enjoy the simple things in (Lusternian) life: RP interactions, participating in rituals and commune events, RP interactions... If I log in and greet the commune over CT and get no response, I tend to log off. I'm sure a newbie feels the same way. If they log in, or start a new character, and don't get anyone talking to them, what's the fun in being there? The way to retain new people: Interaction, interaction, interaction.

Sheesh, I just made one font size bump, and no other typographic changes. You guys are acting like this is unprecedented, or like I put it five sizes up in blinking red text. I just highlighted a single sentence someone else wrote to give him credit for having said it and because I think it's a point routinely overlooked, that's all.

Lendren:

Sheesh, I just made one font size bump, and no other typographic changes. You guys are acting like this is unprecedented, or like I put it five sizes up in blinking red text. I just highlighted a single sentence someone else wrote to give him credit for having said it and because I think it's a point routinely overlooked, that's all.

I actually liked your post, because it did point out something very important!

Alas, it's escalated since your post. I lept to absurdity in hopes of cutting it off. Sorry!

I rather think you did offer a solution, Druken, just perhaps not explicitly. We certainly do all have fun here in different ways, but one thing we have in common, I think, is that whatever we're doing, we're having fun with other players.

I also agree that despite its flaws, the Serenwilde is, and always has been, a fun org to play in. Mainly because I love many of the characters who live there. Sure, there's a select group who I don't find fun, but there is such a group in every org. But I think the finger should never be pointed at anyone else. The health of an org is dependent on the people who remain in it, not who left it. Any power such people have over us, is left there by us.

This bitterness creeping up in the thread has a lot to do with it. Ever lived with a depressed roomate? No matter what their reason for being depressed, justified or not, it's not fun to be with them. But in Lusternia, you have the option not to be with them, unlike perhaps an unfortunate lease one may have signed that fiscally binds you to this person.

Many of my alts often feel shunned, outright ignored, or completely left in the dark. In EVERY org (Even Glomdoring!) I've also, at some point, found a great deal of fun playing with people. In EVERY org. So I don't think that's entirely the issue, unless people are trying to claim Glomdoring doesn't lose as many new players as the rest of us.

We can all reach out, and have fun with more players, whether we're used to them or not. Whether we even like them or not. Some of the most fantastic RP I've had here was with characters I didn't like. We can also perhaps tone down the random jaded ranting I've heard in every org, not just the Serenwilde.

Collected Ideas:
Novice Introduction and Retention:
1) Events are, for the most part, high-level only. Introduce ways for lower level characters to take part, with a smaller reward, preferably a small handful of bound credits (25-50ish), in order to help new players feel immersed in the game more quickly.
2) Increase number of lessons available to low level players, either through leveling, quests, or additional early game achievments in order to strengthen the link between effort and reward for novices, and to decrease the apparent cost of entry (a major barrier for young players without an income source).
3) Introduce Autosipping as a low-level skill in order to help new players, particularly those using the Nexus client, as many true novices do, have more success with bashing. IMPLEMENTED!
4) Introduce low-level quests empowering various loyal mobs slightly in order to give novices new methods of feeling helpful to their org more quickly
5) Introduce Collegium "Final Exam" type quests (optional, of course) that introduce the player to sipping/curing while bashing/influencing, bashing/influencing multiple mobs without sleeping/meditating, basic quest puzzles, searching, and NPC interation commands, as well as require the player to answer basic questions about the lore and dogma of their respective org. Reward would be a one-time pile of lessons/bound credits, a well as a smallish vitals buff every time.


Burnout Prevention:
1) Add incentive of some sort to occasionally shift alliances in order to promote dynamic politics and discourage bitterness between players and orgs, as well as promote healthy changes in org fortunes.
2) Re-examine group combat mechanics in order discourage "Divide and Conquer; Spam to Kill" strategies.
3a) Re-examine conflict mechanics in order to mechanically increase the difficulty of both defending held villages and obtaining new villages if at least four are held, and the same with aetherbubbles if at least two are held. The advantage should be able to be overcome with numbers and organization at first, but should swiftly increase as additional villages/bubbles are held.
3b) Make all villages revolt at once and make all bubbles flare at once
--Both of these suggestions, particularly the second, would introduce difficulties to orgs holding hugely more than their share of bubbles and villages, while still rewarding particularly populous and/or organized orgs with a greater number.
3c) Bring back Nexus Weakening, but only allow a single construct to be destroyed per weakening, and increase the difficulty of doing so.

I feel like any ideas for 'balancing' the game that crop up in a thread like this are not only doomed to fail, but designed to fail. There is definitely an echo chamber; those who agree with you only emphasize your point and make you feel that you are treading the right path (and perhaps should be even more forceful), while those who disagree are clearly Wrong.

To get into more specifics; can some things be done? Sure. Especially in the area of novice retention there is definite room for improvement (the lessons thing has been around for ages).

Things like "make every village revolt at the same time"? That's just a bit nutty. Most of the villages will have no competition at all. You might as well just give 2-3 villages to each organization and call it a day, removing revolts entirely. That's what the end result will be anyways. You're not adding anything to the game, you're just removing even more conflict in favour of giving everyone something.

foolofsound:

Burnout Prevention:
3a) Re-examine conflict mechanics in order to mechanically increase the difficulty of both defending held villages and obtaining new villages if at least three are held, and the same with aetherbubbles if at least two are held. The advantage should be able to be overcome with numbers and organization at first, but should swiftly increase as additional villages/bubbles are held.
3b) Make all villages revolt at once and make all bubbles flare at once
--Both of these suggestions, particularly the second, would introduce difficulties to orgs holding hugely more than their share of bubbles and villages, while still rewarding particularly populous and/or organized orgs with a greater number.

While I have an opinion on each point, I want to address these ones. There is already something in place to discourage an org from holding too many villages(village feelings). It may not be perfect, but it stops Glom/Mag/Celest/Shuyin/etc from controlling every village.
-Everyone- is on equal ground when it comes to capturing bubbles. There is no benefit gained from holding bubbles that helps capturing them easier for the previously controlling org. If one/two/three(maybe) orgs control the bubbles, it's because they are more organized than everyone else. It seriously takes a few minutes to prep for a flare, and the rest of the process is left up to whoever is present with bombard, how many ships you can field, and who gets there first.
How do you define "more than their share"?
If an org is more organized in the current system why should'nt they be able to easily scoop up bubbles, compared to the opposition?
If villages/flares all went off at the same time, then they'd have to be held reasonably long enough to actually benefit from the benefits.

Bit disorganized due to being written on my iPod.

I'm not sure I like the idea of penalizing people for having "more than their share" of bubbles and villages. Who decides what's an appropriate share?

Azureus:

Who decides what's an appropriate share?

The admins, of course. Certainly half of the villages should be considered "hugely more than their share".

Both the suggestion threes were just ideas being thrown around in other discussion. I'm not a particular fan of either; I just included them since they were offered.

AquaNeos:

While I have an opinion on each point, I want to address these ones. There is already something in place to discourage an org from holding too many villages(village feelings). It may not be perfect, but it stops Glom/Mag/Celest/Shuyin/etc from controlling every village.
.

Not going to comment on the rest, because I do think that some of the observations are based on flawed perspective and therefore the (yes, present) factual evidence provided is shrouded in... other stuff.

But. Afaict, you're actually wrong here. Village feelings do nothing to stop one org from controlling all villages. Village feelings make it very hard for any org that dosn't already have a given village to take it. This means that the current 'spread' is due to a string of luck for any given org months (and potentially months) ago in capturing a particular village, probably by having many people on when the holder happened to have an extreme few. After a lucky capture, that org just clung to their massive village feelings so that the other orgs couldn't take it. If the other org did manage to take that village, it would be JUST AS HARD to take it back. That's more or less fair (though full of all sorts of excrement), but it does nothing to curb having many villages. In fact, it makes it easier. It takes less effort to recapture each village, so you can spread yourself more thinly than you could otherwise.

Enyalida:


Not going to comment on the rest, because I do think that some of the observations are based on flawed perspective and therefore the (yes, present) factual evidence provided is shrouded in... other stuff.

But. Afaict, you're actually wrong here. Village feelings do nothing to stop one org from controlling all villages. Village feelings make it very hard for any org that dosn't already have a given village to take it. This means that the current 'spread' is due to a string of luck for any given org months (and potentially months) ago in capturing a particular village, probably by having many people on when the holder happened to have an extreme few. After a lucky capture, that org just clung to their massive village feelings so that the other orgs couldn't take it. If the other org did manage to take that village, it would be JUST AS HARD to take it back. That's more or less fair (though full of all sorts of excrement), but it does nothing to curb having many villages. In fact, it makes it easier. It takes less effort to recapture each village, so you can spread yourself more thinly than you could otherwise.

Didn't say stop, said discourage. As a hold of one village negatively accrues feelings in the opposite village(s). Glom holds Angkrag, takes more effort than Mag in taking Rockholm.

Enyalida:


Not going to comment on the rest, because I do think that some of the observations are based on flawed perspective and therefore the (yes, present) factual evidence provided is shrouded in... other stuff.

But. Afaict, you're actually wrong here. Village feelings do nothing to stop one org from controlling all villages. Village feelings make it very hard for any org that dosn't already have a given village to take it. This means that the current 'spread' is due to a string of luck for any given org months (and potentially months) ago in capturing a particular village, probably by having many people on when the holder happened to have an extreme few. After a lucky capture, that org just clung to their massive village feelings so that the other orgs couldn't take it. If the other org did manage to take that village, it would be JUST AS HARD to take it back. That's more or less fair (though full of all sorts of excrement), but it does nothing to curb having many villages. In fact, it makes it easier. It takes less effort to recapture each village, so you can spread yourself more thinly than you could otherwise.

This is incorrect.

Holding one village from a revolt cycle lets you build up its feelings really well and gives you an advantage in winning it back. It also makes the other villages in that revolt cycle hate you (so winning them as well is very difficult). Further, should you somehow manage to win more than one village in a revolt cycle they will still generate those same negative feelings... which means that winning them back is much more difficult the next go around. This gets exacerbated for each extra village from the cycle.

So even if you do manage it once, it's very unlikely that you can continue to do so.

The mechanic is built to do exactly this, and it does this well.

PS: Villages can and do change hands! Just check the politics posts.

Yes, but that's different then KEEPING a village. At the point where you already have the villages, your passive gain (iirc) will outstrip the malus for having the other villages (?), and no one else can effectively raise feelings in those villages, leaving you again with something of a stranglehold. If you look at my post, I do mention that it is possible to take villages. I also go on to say that once you have a village, under the current system it (Seems to be) fairly easy to exert a stranglehold on it.

Yep. It wasn't long ago that Mag held both Paavik and Stewartsville, and (I think) Seren held Shanthmark.

foolofsound:

Both the suggestion threes were just ideas being thrown around in other discussion. I'm not a particular fan of either; I just included them since they were offered.

I realize that, so I'm not calling you out on it. I dislike the idea itself, though. But never mind that.

On the positives, I really like idea 4. Influencing is an in-depth and unique part of Lusternia and Morrund's little hand-out isn't really enough to introduce one to the concept. I'm still learning how, and I think whenever I feel over-confident and come along on a revolt I wind up spending the entire time oblivious, not because I'm mindless/AFK but because I'm reading help scrolls.

As far as basic health/mana go, I don't really think auto-sipping is necessary: most people can figure out the "drink health" command. But I seem to be in the minority there, and it's certainly not a bad idea.

Enyalida:

Yes, but that's different then KEEPING a village. At the point where you already have the villages, your passive gain (iirc) will outstrip the malus for having the other villages (?), and no one else can effectively raise feelings in those villages, leaving you again with something of a stranglehold. If you look at my post, I do mention that it is possible to take villages. I also go on to say that once you have a village, under the current system it (Seems to be) fairly easy to exert a stranglehold on it.

The last time Glomdoring had two villages in the same cycle, with a lot of other villages and a conquest mindset, when the revolt happened there were level 1 feelings in each towards Glomdoring (which was only possible because of owning a lot of other villages at once). That's not really much of an advantage, because other organizations sure could work on improving feelings if they wanted to. Matching a level 1 really isn't that hard!

With fewer villages, the negatives would have outweighed the positive influence.

foolofsound:

Collected Ideas:
Novice Introduction and Retention:
1) Events are, for the most part, high-level only. Introduce ways for lower level characters to take part, with a smaller reward, preferably a small handful of bound credits (25-50ish), in order to help new players feel immersed in the game more quickly.
2) Increase number of lessons available to low level players, either through leveling, quests, or additional early game achievments in order to strengthen the link between effort and reward for novices, and to decrease the apparent cost of entry (a major barrier for young players without an income source).
3) Introduce Autosipping as a low-level skill in order to help new players, particularly those using the Nexus client, as many true novices do, have more success with bashing.
4) Introduce low-level quests empowering various loyal mobs slightly in order to give novices new methods of feeling helpful to their org more quickly
5) Introduce Collegium "Final Exam" type quests (optional, of course) that introduce the player to sipping/curing while bashing/influencing, bashing/influencing multiple mobs without sleeping/meditating, basic quest puzzles, searching, and NPC interation commands, as well as require the player to answer basic questions about the lore and dogma of their respective org. Reward would be a one-time pile of lessons/bound credits, a well as a smallish vitals buff every time.


Burnout Prevention:
1) Add incentive of some sort to occasionally shift alliances in order to promote dynamic politics and discourage bitterness between players and orgs, as well as promote healthy changes in org fortunes.
2) Re-examine group combat mechanics in order discourage "Divide and Conquer; Spam to Kill" strategies.
3a) Re-examine conflict mechanics in order to mechanically increase the difficulty of both defending held villages and obtaining new villages if at least four are held, and the same with aetherbubbles if at least two are held. The advantage should be able to be overcome with numbers and organization at first, but should swiftly increase as additional villages/bubbles are held.
3b) Make all villages revolt at once and make all bubbles flare at once
--Both of these suggestions, particularly the second, would introduce difficulties to orgs holding hugely more than their share of bubbles and villages, while still rewarding particularly populous and/or organized orgs with a greater number.
3c) Bring back Nexus Weakening, but only allow a single construct to be destroyed per weakening, and increase the difficulty of doing so.

As far as novices go, it just requires people to be more intereactive. I know in Glom, (and I'm not a good example of this, but a lot of other people are) there are a lot of older characters that love RPing with the novices and interact with them. When I think back on it, one of my big draws to like Glom was the fact that I was taken bashing a whole lot by people like Talan.

I know that during fights if we lose or don't win, I try to tell all the newer people 'hey, it didn't quite work out, but good work.' I do my best to not 'yell' at people for messing up or anything (I'm not perfect, it happens sometimes), but just encourage them to learn from it for next time.

I guess my point is I don't feel we mechanical incentives. Sure they'd help, but I don't feel a novice is going to more inclined to stick around just because they gain more lessons/gold by influencing loyal mobs. Providing a open atmosphere where people feel comfortable and that they 'belong' is a million times more important. Anything mechanical is extraneous.

As to the second part

I'm a fan of nexus weakenings, one of my fondest memories is waking up at ass hours of the morning to fly a ship to Seren's nexus world to get slaughtered. It was only ever like 4 of us, but we did it a whole lot and enjoyed it every time.

Other than that, stop trying to nerf combat. Stop trying to punish preparation. Villages shift often enough as it is. Bubbles are won by preperation. I'd like to see weakenings again.

Alliances are tough to change because people dislike others IRL. I'm sure there's a few people that dislike me immensely. I know I don't want to work with certain people in every org(Celest and Gaudi included). I would if I had to, and maybe it would show another side of them that might change my feelings, but I know for a fact that Munsia's said she would do everything in her power to destroy any alliance with Glomdoring. I'm sure others would do the same thing.

Anyway, I think there's already a report in the works for flares/revolts, lets see how that works out. Anything else is extraneous and won't help anything without significant positive involvement from the players.

Sidd has a point. While people might understand the concept of leveling up fine, and leveling up faster, while they're still learning to understand the game extra lessons/credits will be pretty meaningless to them.

Graduation credit rewards for finishing the collegium/guild novicehood could just as easily come from a dedicated city credit fund set up especially for novices, so that the concept could be explained by whatever elder is distrubuting them.

Mechanical benefits are nice but even some of the suggestions so far could be done ourselves.