Not having played aetolia, that description of their war system sounds remarkably like starcraft.

I think play testing definitely is a good idea. Hands down. Pretty much every successful game depended on it. It's a well known fact that the people who know how to break the game and find ways around the intended design are the players. I understand that admins might want to keep certain things untouched by players before release (eg. new skills, guilds, quests etc.). That's understandable. One route you can go is to get a core group of player testers who are actively involved in the game, make them sign an NDA and get them to break things and give useful feedback. I feel like some past releases could have definitely benefited from a 'player-breaking' test phase.
Alternatively, when fixing really tough things (eg. warriors, druids, monks, new classes) where the 'fixes' suggested are too general and need fine-tuning, I feel like spending a month or two on letting players test and find the sweet-spot to be a great way to get high levels of satisfaction.

Rivius:

I think play testing definitely is a good idea. Hands down. Pretty much every successful game depended on it. It's a well known fact that the people who know how to break the game and find ways around the intended design are the players. I understand that admins might want to keep certain things untouched by players before release (eg. new skills, guilds, quests etc.). That's understandable. One route you can go is to get a core group of player testers who are actively involved in the game, make them sign an NDA and get them to break things and give useful feedback. I feel like some past releases could have definitely benefited from a 'player-breaking' test phase.
Alternatively, when fixing really tough things (eg. warriors, druids, monks, new classes) where the 'fixes' suggested are too general and need fine-tuning, I feel like spending a month or two on letting players test and find the sweet-spot to be a great way to get high levels of satisfaction.

As an envoy, we were allowed to use a test server occasionally - I think Fain hosted them, could be mistaken though. It was pretty rare, and usually only focused around finding a very hard to track bug, but I think we tested strength changes once too.

However, your idea about a group is good, and I think envoys should be part of it, but not the extent. Great idea!

What a turn this thread has taken! Honestly, I'm a bit mystified by what these terrible decisions are that I've made that could have been avoided by feedback or testing. I believe I do listen to players and try to address concerns, if warranted. For new skills and whatnot, generally they need to be played live for a period of time before a good evaluation is done. There are issues with test servers insofar that many times we can't allow more than a couple people on at a time and even when we can open it up more, no one shows. (I'm sure some envoys are aware when I've begged for them to get people to test something and end up with just a couple of people logging in.)

When we can announce something before its release that needs player feedback, I will certainly try to do so (and believe we have). Currently, we don't have plans for any major systems to implement. You're welcome to suggest things if you want! While there are some things in the pipeline, they are not of the type that should be announced (in my opinion).

As for earning your respect, I truly regret if you believe I don't deserve it. However, bombast and "telling me like it is" as some form of 'tough love' generally has the opposite effect with me, so take that for what it's worth. Lusternia is my life, much more than yours (believe it or not!), and I'll always work to improve it and myself.

Estarra:

When we can announce something before its release that needs player feedback, I will certainly try to do so (and believe we have). Currently, we don't have plans for any major systems to implement. You're welcome to suggest things if you want! While there are some things in the pipeline, they are not of the type that should be announced (in my opinion).

I'm confused on this segment. Is there something in development, or is there not something in development?

Kialkarkea:


I'm confused on this segment. Is there something in development, or is there not something in development?

There's alway something in development! I meant no major system of the type people were talking about (war systems, etc.).

I had a larger post, but it boils down to this:

If it were possible for a small number of Serenwilders to pull their org up by their own bootstraps, I'd think we would have done it by now.

('War systems' are only as fun as the teams that are fighting. No new conflict mechanism will change Glom/Seren combat as long as the teams stay the same.)

Has the time that Seren been beaten on equaled the time Glom was yet?

I think it's about to equal it soon.

As far as playtesting goes, I am 100% sure there are still parts of Hallifax's conflict quest that don't work right, two years later. All of my bug reports about it got deleted when the bug queue reset and it hasn't happened again to generate new ones. I was extremely upset when I realized that the most important thing that could happen to us (or that we could inflict on someone else) mechanics wise had not been tested thoroughly. I know that at least once, our shield went down while we waited for the admins to fix a bug that stopped us from doing anything to prevent it. I wrote a very strongly worded email to Estarra about how disappointed I was that I never sent, because I'm a pansy. I can't think of one time that a new quest or area has been released without any major bugs. By major, I mean bugs that prevent the quest from being completed. Forgetting to make a few denizens influencable is fine. Missing it on the leader, the one you have to influence to get unenemied? That's not so fine. An events post about a cool sounding new quest, and the only mob who can tell you how to do it won't say a word, no matter how many things you say to her/how hard you slap her? Major problem. It is clear to me that most of the gods who design quests never actually try to do them before releasing them. As has already been said, that's horrible quality assurance.

tl;dr I completely agree that Lusternia needs more pre-release testing, in almost every aspect.

I don't know how long Glom was beaten up for (I joined towards the 'end' of that era). Current situation has existed since I first became SS GM (when Xiel left), which would have been before Mirami was 40. So, over 60 IG years (2 OOC years)?

(Shuyin leaves Serenwilde: 3/26/2009 (year 231))
Mirami elected: 7/12/2009 (year 242).
Current date: 2/21/2012 (year 318).

Time elapsed: Two and a half (OOC) years (Mirami); almost three years (Shuyin).

Lilia:

As far as playtesting goes, I am 100% sure there are still parts of Hallifax's conflict quest that don't work right, two years later. All of my bug reports about it got deleted when the bug queue reset and it hasn't happened again to generate new ones. I was extremely upset when I realized that the most important thing that could happen to us (or that we could inflict on someone else) mechanics wise had not been tested thoroughly. I know that at least once, our shield went down while we waited for the admins to fix a bug that stopped us from doing anything to prevent it. I wrote a very strongly worded email to Estarra about how disappointed I was that I never sent, because I'm a pansy. I can't think of one time that a new quest or area has been released without any major bugs. By major, I mean bugs that prevent the quest from being completed. Forgetting to make a few denizens influencable is fine. Missing it on the leader, the one you have to influence to get unenemied? That's not so fine. An events post about a cool sounding new quest, and the only mob who can tell you how to do it won't say a word, no matter how many things you say to her/how hard you slap her? Major problem. It is clear to me that most of the gods who design quests never actually try to do them before releasing them. As has already been said, that's horrible quality assurance.

tl;dr I completely agree that Lusternia needs more pre-release testing, in almost every aspect.

Maybe check with Zvoltz on the Hallifax quest? Sometimes we get bugs and if we can't duplicate them, we can't fix them. (Very often for quests, we've found that a bug reported isn't a bug but rather player error.)

We actually do try to test quests and areas before release! However, some quests are so complicated or there are some things we didn't realize may happen that bugs do occur. However, I really don't see how it would be possible to have players test areas before they're released and have any semblence of an event that may build up to the quest. (Not to mention there would be very little motivation for players to go through the hours of questing on a test server just to have to do it over again when the event releases a quest.)

I think some of the residual dissatisfaction may stem from the recent Ascendant events. Did any events go by without a fairly major bug or other gaffe (like not having a plan set out for an odd number of participants)?

Well, you have mortal builders right? I know I scried one working on Hallifax before Hallifax was released. Can't you give them a sheet on what to do, and have them run through it to see if there's any problems on the test server?

Enyalida:

I think some of the residual dissatisfaction may stem from the recent Ascendant events. Did any events go by without a fairly major bug or other gaffe (like not having a plan set out for an odd number of participants)?

There seems to be dissatisfaciton every year! Weren't players asked for input on a plan for odd number of participants and then Avechna announced the plan that would be used and everyone seemed satisfied? Probably best not to re-litigate the whole thing but running Ascensions aren't very rewarding so I hope you can be sympathetic to the volunteers who step up to implement it.

Don't think it's fair to rant about admin and buggy quest/areas/events without mentioning that we appreciate how much effort and thought goes into both concept as well as the complexity that the events and quests tend to be in Lusternia. :) Quests and events are probably the major pull for me in Lusternia.

While there may be times that event bugs haven't been handled that well, as long as the admin are progressive and learn from past events what works and what doesn't, I'm happy.

I mean, with problems present in the previous events (bugs and things like the gutter debacle, though there was an apology for that), I know that there was some grumbling and raised eyebrows that there wasn't enough apparent (No way of telling these things, or if it was kind of "Who ever will be on/not at work/whatever, do it") prior thought put into that event to account for an eventuality that had a 50% chance of occurring, though we do get that things have to get pushed through.

Ascensions aren't necessarily rewarding on our end either, let's scrap the whole thing, it's happened enough already, right? :P

Razenth:

Well, you have mortal builders right? I know I scried one working on Hallifax before Hallifax was released. Can't you give them a sheet on what to do, and have them run through it to see if there's any problems on the test server?

Being a mortal builder doesn't mean they're necessarily good questers. Further, I am extremely uncomfortable giving any player a walkthrough of a quest before release. It would be extremely tempting to help your org out and they would necessarily be forced to sit out of the event (and how fun would that be for them?). Also, just one instance of accusations floating around that someone exploited pre-knowledge of a quest--even if it is untrue or simply untrackable--that sort of blame game is simply not worth whatever benefit one may gain.

Enyalida:

Ascensions aren't necessarily rewarding on our end either, let's scrap the whole thing, it's happened enough already, right? :P

Hey, if you guys never want another Ascension Event, just don't participate next year and I promise there won't be another!

Solanis:

Don't think it's fair to rant about admin and buggy quest/areas/events without mentioning that we appreciate how much effort and thought goes into both concept as well as the complexity that the events and quests tend to be in Lusternia. :) Quests and events are probably the major pull for me in Lusternia.

While there may be times that event bugs haven't been handled that well, as long as the admin are progressive and learn from past events what works and what doesn't, I'm happy.

Thank you!