Ytran2012-01-22 21:30:54
3. Top dog orgs have nothing to do with destroying the game.
I pretty much agree with all your points, but I think this one comes along with some subtleties/tangents that need to be addressed when you're considering the game as a whole.
When I think of combat/organisations in Lusternia, I find it really hard to think of the game as six independent orgs instead of two big alliances with a small handful of different colour choices in each. On the grand scale of things, and taken entirely independently of other factors, this isn't really much of an issue and is expected to some extent, due to the sometimes large differences in capabilities between organisations; from abilities that fill specific niches in combat that other orgs can't really touch on (choke, balestone, etc.) to major, essentially-necessary things like Enchantment that are only available in cities. These sorts of things are needed in varying amounts by everyone, but only available to select groups. So these groups get together and eventually some measure of balance works out, and we end up where the game is at now: In general, both "sides" are fairly balanced on the whole, while some orgs are a bit more competent/active than the rest.
The problem is that, now that this balance has been found, org politics have become basically static; it is always Glomaudilest vs. Magnalliwilde for the past two(?) years. This is boring. Fighting against the exact same people all the time isn't terribly fun after a while, and everyone is either reluctant or afraid to switch it up for whatever of a myriad of reasons. Boring.. The solution to this isn't minor switcheroos every couple of years, either (see the Gaudi/Halli side swapping however long ago, with all the Trinity drama and blahblahblah that came with that); particularly when the orgs being moved are basically the least relevant of the group (which I'd argue both Gaudi and Halli were at the time). The only way that continuous dynamism can really be achieved insofar as organisational relations go is to lose the mentality that organisations must form super solid brick walls of indivisible allyship. There are, again, myriad issues here that prevent this, some valid and some not really valid, and I don't really want to get into them aside from one that came up in your post:
4. Burning hatred / lack of respect leads to win at all costs which leads to teaming.
This is, in my opinion, the single most damaging phenomenon to Lusternia, both on small and large scales. I can't really say if the issues goes quite to "burning hatred", but there is a general trend to consider, OOCly, the people you're currently playing against to be legitimately bad people, which is severely damaging on an individual and small group level, but moreso on the organisational level; shifting org alliances cannot reasonably happen when everyone considers everyone on the other side, OOCly, a villain; instead of realising that, "hey, those guys over in Glomdoring are pretty cool, and things are a bit stagnant and getting boring, maybe we could talk to them and see about shaking things up", the prevailing opinion tends towards, "Those Glomdoring bastards a bunch of fun-hating griefers, let's go punch them in the face." This is a Bad Thing.
And now I'm kind of losing my train of thought, so I'm going to end here on this note: The game is tending towards boredom and stagnation because of a lack of dynamism on a macro level, and the negative OOC feelings from one "side" to another form a severe block to allowing this static existence to shift, along with leaving a lot of people involved in generally sour moods when it comes to the game in general. This is the first thing that needs to be fixed, because even the best combat balance and organisational competitions and so forth mean nothing if opposing players dislike the other side OOC.
Unknown2012-01-22 21:36:30
PhantasmalKiller:
You need at minimum, dingbat nose, soap, 3 pipe runes, gem of cloaking, grip runes, shield rune, and a RoA, if you're not melee. Given the current spam-damage group combat meta, lvl 3 magic rune is important too, especially for bard/mage. If you're a warrior, add in 3Kcr worth of weapon runes instead of the grip and shield rune.
-Nose: Useful, but not nessicary.
-Pipe Runes: I got by without them, only put them on later because I won them off the wheel and wanted my custom pipes to stop decaying.
-Gem of Cloaking: Only if you are worried about getting ganked and are a poor runner.
-Grip Rune: I get by without one. Granted, it would be useful, but it's not a vital part of combat.
-Shield Rune: This is probably the most important one, though I know some people manage to get by without one.
-RoA: Nessicary? Not at all. It's useful, but adds relatively little to combat potential. Most people don't do physical damage, and warrior damage is piddling anyway. At best, this is helpful against monks.
-Magic Rune: Not at all nessicary. If a group targets you, you die. 20% extra damage from one person will not make much of a difference. If you couldn't kill them without the rune, you probably can't with the rune.
-Weapon Runes: I've been told that runes are nice, but in no way worth it, except for elemental damage. Significantly more important are high quality weapons.
Again. I'm not talking about being top-tier. You don't need to be top-tier to enter combat. What you need however is about five skills transed (3 guild, combat, discipline), with a number of lessons elsewhere. Those skills are hugely more important than an entire collection of artifacts.
PhantasmalKiller:
Then add in bixes. And your cameo. And lots and lots of other things that make a win-or-lose difference situationally. It's ridiculous.
And that's not even including skills. You need a minimum of trans 6 + green/gedulah + tumble to fight. That means you're looking at somewhere to the tune of 450-600USD (if you buy all at once in bulk), dependant on other bits that are essential to different groups (and ignoring that warriors -require- the 3Kcr (read 900USD) rune drop to fight, on an equal priority with getting their skills.
When -every- class needs to shell out half a grand to fight, and warriors need to shell out almost a grand and a half USD... just for the bare essentials...
YOU'VE GOT A SERIOUS :censor: PROBLEM
If getting credits in-game were remotely viable, it wouldn't be as absurd, but as is? :censor: that, man. If I didn't have plenty of money to just piss away in the wind, I wouldn't even bother playing.
Oh, and you added this later. Yeah, I think I'm just going to blanket respond with a "You're absolutely wrong on this". It is painfully obvious that little if any of this stuff is nessicary for combat. I agree that the cost of entry is too high, but that is pure exaggeration.
Unknown2012-01-22 21:42:24
If you don't have nose, you're fighting blind in group. If you don't have pipes runes, you can get seriously screwed if they drop at the wrong time. Without a grip rune, you've got issues, because the rewield under aeon/choke/insert-other-aff-here isn't practical. Shield rune? After the huge nerf to shields it's more essential than fresh underwear. RoA? Fight a monk without one, and then fight one with one. Magic rune? It means your group kills the other group faster, meaning you're less likely to die.
And whoever told you weapon runes are 'nice but not worth it' is dead right. Paying 3K just to play the game is never worth it unless you're a masochist. Join a different class. If you want a prayer of fighting top-tier as a warrior? Good fskin luck without em.
Cloaking Gem is essential if you're an active fighter and wanna keep Demi. Otherwise, get used to only leaving your city while aboard an aethership, or in a large group.
And whoever told you weapon runes are 'nice but not worth it' is dead right. Paying 3K just to play the game is never worth it unless you're a masochist. Join a different class. If you want a prayer of fighting top-tier as a warrior? Good fskin luck without em.
Cloaking Gem is essential if you're an active fighter and wanna keep Demi. Otherwise, get used to only leaving your city while aboard an aethership, or in a large group.
Vadi2012-01-22 21:46:42
It was Hallifax last who shuffled the alliances on their own will. Do it once gain?
Unknown2012-01-22 21:48:11
PhantasmalKiller:
Cloaking Gem is essential if you're an active fighter and wanna keep Demi. Otherwise, get used to only leaving your city while aboard an aethership, or in a large group.
Only if you aren't willing to bash for 15 minutes a day or half the game hates your guts. Besides, unless the person jumping you is Shuyin, it isn't hard to get away from most people.
Again, you are confusing "entering combat" with "being top-tier". You do not need to be top tier to be useful in combat. Hell, a baby celestine with Web and Judge is useful in groups, if not small-scale combat, without needing a single artifact.
Unknown2012-01-22 21:50:28
owaitihavetumble
We call such people 'cannon fodder'. They die early, and just keep dying until they get tired of coming back up and dying. It takes my mage less than 12s to straight damagekill your baby celestine. I just use scent, autowalk to them while they try to stumble back to their group, and lulz.
It's a good thing I'm comfortable paying six times a WoW sub on this game every month.
Point is, combat requires A) Massive sums of money not to be fodder and B ) A solid system and lots of handy additional plugins.
Neither of which most new players are gonna hassel with.
We call such people 'cannon fodder'. They die early, and just keep dying until they get tired of coming back up and dying. It takes my mage less than 12s to straight damagekill your baby celestine. I just use scent, autowalk to them while they try to stumble back to their group, and lulz.
It's a good thing I'm comfortable paying six times a WoW sub on this game every month.
Point is, combat requires A) Massive sums of money not to be fodder and B ) A solid system and lots of handy additional plugins.
Neither of which most new players are gonna hassel with.
Ytran2012-01-22 21:50:51
It was Hallifax last who shuffled the alliances on their own will. Do it once gain?
The solution to this isn't minor switcheroos every couple of years
Unknown2012-01-22 21:54:48
Magic fingers~FOCUS THREAD
Ok, with concerns of population apparent, how about what can we as players and Lusternia/Ire do to bring in new players? Constructive ideas go!
Ok, with concerns of population apparent, how about what can we as players and Lusternia/Ire do to bring in new players? Constructive ideas go!
Unknown2012-01-22 22:08:49
1) Restore the capacity for serious gains and losses due to org conflict (not just combat, but non-com conflict as well that doesn't just annoy everyone equally). I mean -serious- ones.
2) If it won't happen organically, forcibly shift the balance of power by nerfing keystone skills, and buffing others, when necessary, and only rebuffing/renerfing them when the balance of power needs to swing again. This also solves the static alliance issues, due to the lack of need to huddle around a big guy for safety, or huddle around each other and try to stay afloat in the face of one enduring 'master org'.
3) Mechanically encourage small group tactics combat (at least 2v2, at most 5v5).
4) Make lesson packages (of varying amounts) purchaseable for gold. Factor the price off how much cash the average demi can earn in an hour, assume a range centered around 6ish hours a day, and decide how many days of constant hunting you want to equal out to one trans skill, then price it based on that. Screw the free market, it's killing the game by keeping new people from sticking around long enough to invest back.
This makes getting your skills a possibility for younger ones, while still leaving the credit market alive for artis, etc, and keeping players buying creds. Would also stimulate lower cred market prices, because the gold would be sinking out of the system. Lessons are essentials. Artifacts are win more (for most archetypes). You ain't gonna hook your players if they can't get anywhere, and they ain't gonna buy creds if you don't hook them.
5) We as players need to widely disseminate systems, plugins, etc. Treant made a huge difference in the old days, in terms of player retention and combat accessibility. you could point a newbie at MUSHclient, then at Treant, spend an hour showing them how to use it, and then they could at least function and survive. Those days are gone.
Edit: Damn that took a lot of edits to get out right.
2) If it won't happen organically, forcibly shift the balance of power by nerfing keystone skills, and buffing others, when necessary, and only rebuffing/renerfing them when the balance of power needs to swing again. This also solves the static alliance issues, due to the lack of need to huddle around a big guy for safety, or huddle around each other and try to stay afloat in the face of one enduring 'master org'.
3) Mechanically encourage small group tactics combat (at least 2v2, at most 5v5).
4) Make lesson packages (of varying amounts) purchaseable for gold. Factor the price off how much cash the average demi can earn in an hour, assume a range centered around 6ish hours a day, and decide how many days of constant hunting you want to equal out to one trans skill, then price it based on that. Screw the free market, it's killing the game by keeping new people from sticking around long enough to invest back.
This makes getting your skills a possibility for younger ones, while still leaving the credit market alive for artis, etc, and keeping players buying creds. Would also stimulate lower cred market prices, because the gold would be sinking out of the system. Lessons are essentials. Artifacts are win more (for most archetypes). You ain't gonna hook your players if they can't get anywhere, and they ain't gonna buy creds if you don't hook them.
5) We as players need to widely disseminate systems, plugins, etc. Treant made a huge difference in the old days, in terms of player retention and combat accessibility. you could point a newbie at MUSHclient, then at Treant, spend an hour showing them how to use it, and then they could at least function and survive. Those days are gone.
Edit: Damn that took a lot of edits to get out right.
Turnus2012-01-22 22:22:26
PhantasmalKiller:
1) Restore the capacity for serious gains and losses due to org conflict (not just combat, but non-com conflict as well that doesn't just annoy everyone equally). I mean -serious- ones.
As much as I like conflict quests and wouldn't mind more of a return for them. As a Seren, I really selfishly don't want to have to deal with Hart dying constantly because he wasn't empowered once. If there's an issue with org momentum (remember, one of those things on the special report?) adding huge repercussions to conflict quests is not going to help.
I don't mind quests with an ebb and flow between the sides, like sea battles. But I really don't want to see -huge- repercussions. Keep it small or RP ones.
Unknown2012-01-22 22:24:17
PhantasmalKiller:
1) Restore the capacity for serious gains and losses due to org conflict (not just combat, but non-com conflict as well that doesn't just annoy everyone equally). I mean -serious- ones.
This is only viable if the balance of power is artifically maintained, otherwise this is a terrible doule-win, and will only make the winning org situation worse.
2) If it won't happen organically, forcibly shift the balance of power by nerfing keystone skills, and buffing others, when necessary, and only rebuffing/renerfing them when the balance of power needs to swing again. This also solves the static alliance issues, due to the lack of need to huddle around a big guy for safety, or huddle around each other and try to stay afloat in the face of one enduring 'master org'.
I don't like the idea of mechanically nerfing the winng orgs skills. Instead, make it more difficult for one org to hold so many conflict rewards. Make all aetherbubbles flare at once and all villages revolt at once. That way a single org cannot possibly defend all of them simulatenously, while orgs with less are more able to keep theirs.
3) Mechanically encourage small group tactics combat (at least 2v2, at most 5v5).
A thousand times yes. See my ideas a couple posts back.
4) Make bound credit packages purchaseable for gold at whatever rate the admins want the credit market to revolve around. Screw the free market, it's killing the game by keeping new people from sticking around long enough to invest back.
Alternatively, and less profit-cutting, make lesson packages buyable with gold (also, excellent gold sink). I recommend about 500 gold per lesson (thats still nearly a million gold per skill). This way, credits remain valuble for artifacts, without forcing players to buy them to be compentant. Hell, even at twice the price this would make it easier for new players to learn their essentials.
5) We as players need to widely disseminate systems, plugins, etc. Treant made a huge difference in the old days, in terms of player retention and combat accessibility. you could point a newbie at MUSHclient, then at Treant, spend an hour showing them how to use it, and then they could at least function and survive. Those days are gone.
I recommend that one be published to a "Getting Started" section on the website, as well as making autosipping a skill.
Enyalida2012-01-22 22:26:49
PhantasmalKiller:
You need at minimum, dingbat nose, soap, 3 pipe runes, gem of cloaking, grip runes, shield rune, and a RoA, if you're not melee. Given the current spam-damage group combat meta, lvl 3 magic rune is important too, especially for bard/mage. If you're a warrior, add in 3Kcr worth of weapon runes instead of the grip and shield rune.
Then add in bixes. And your cameo. And lots and lots of other things that make a win-or-lose difference situationally. It's ridiculous.
And that's not even including skills. You need a minimum of trans 6 + green/gedulah + tumble to fight. That means you're looking at somewhere to the tune of 450-600USD (if you buy all at once in bulk), dependant on other bits that are essential to different groups (and ignoring that warriors -require- the 3Kcr (read 900USD) rune drop to fight, on an equal priority with getting their skills.
Uh, no? I get by with my nose equivalent (from totems), cleanse enchant, normal pipes, no gem, fist sigils, normal shield, no RoA as a druid juuuuust fine. I'm not uber-tier, but I wouldn't put myself anywhere lower then upper middle tier. Magic rune is great, but again, if it's 10v10, you putting out more damage won't change the picture that much.
Get the totally free orgbix. Don't need a cameo, you get a free reincarnate if your race sucks, pick a better race and stick with it (I've been elfen 100% of my character's life.
You should get green/gedulah, tumble if you are tanky enough to survive the first few hits anyways, and trans anywhere from 2-4 skills to combat. I know that as a bard, I got away for a looooooong time with only a dingbat nose, green, roll, focus mind and trans music spec. As a druid, you need to have your tertiary at a high level (trans for some of the terts) to be able to combat at all, but anything above sap in druidry is in no way necessary to (or particularly useful for) combat. These days, I hardly even use active Stag in combat, tbh. Sure it has some great stuff that is useful, but I'd rather be putting out more afflictions from my tert!
I do think that cost of entry is kinda high for most classes, but your numbers are a HUGE exaggeration.
Turnus:
When I've tried to recruit players to lusternia (including mudders), the big complaint for why people give up that I've heard is that its too complex for them. For what that's worth.
I think that a basic auto-sipper and auto-curer (already kinda in place with Firstaid) will really help simplify things for people. Instead of having to constantly keep track of two vitals (health and your bashing vital), your balance/eq/armbalances, mending balance, and herb balance for bashing, you'll have a very limited capacity to let it run on its own. I do not think this will kill lusternia or anything. Look at a lot of other successful muds that run Circle or DikuMud, where the background attacking and defending of combat is done automatically with a rounds system, you just interject with special commands and skills. Simplifying beginner bashing/influencing in this way with a bit of help will make it a lot easier for people used to more hands off combat to get into our much more hands on and multibalance system. I know that when I feel like rolling a new character on one of the other IREs, something that I try to look for as fast as possible is a basic free system, otherwise I quickly hit a wall where it's crazy to keep up with bashing on my own, or where I want to start to join in small skirmishes, but have absolutely no real way to deal with it except code my own basic system from scratch. I don't think that's something we want to have to deal with. I'd be willing to work with someone to strip down some old existing curing system to a more basic and newbie friendly form, if that's what it'll take to help out on that front.
In the interest of having readable posts, I'll reply to later things... later.
Unknown2012-01-22 22:31:36
Enyalida:
I do think that cost of entry is kinda high for most classes, but your numbers are a HUGE exaggeration.
Yeah, I did kinda base that statement around 'high end' combatants... so it is a bit exaggeration, but not that huge. The absolute necessity of weapon runes on warriors isn't exaggerated whatsoever, even when not high-end. Lvl2's can cut it at middies, but even those are a huge expense.
@foolofsound, heh, pre-empted my edit on #4
Edit: With my lack of coding skills, all I can really do is offer to invest alongside any other players that think a basic free system like that would be good for the health of the game. I know it's a lot less fun as it is now than it used to be, due to the lack of new blood. I'd definitely be willing to help alongside others to mitigate the time-cost it would take someone(s) to upkeep a basic system with just a sipper, balance handler for bashing and influencing, and curequeues. Idunno. It's an idea anyway.
Unknown2012-01-22 22:43:32
I believe that the single best thing Estarra could do for the health of the game is to make lessons purchasable with gold; expensive, but purchaseable. This would act as an effective gold sink, allow new players a way to become competant though effort instead of expenditure, and would lower cost of entry into combat, all while allowing credits to retain their value thanks to artifacts!
Unknown2012-01-22 22:44:08
Interaction is important for retaining novices. I've noticed Seekers who are greeted (and say hello themselves) tend to stay more than those who don't. From what I hear from novices around the nexus, finding their guild only has a couple people is a bit off-putting. If there's people and they're all off-Prime, that's still lonely feeling.
Being able to contribute, like Vendetta said, is another thing. They want to feel like part of the world. For some, helping with commodity production, adding to power, etc is nice. Having a trade works for others, Helping with a village is satisfying too. A lot of Seekers want to be able to assist in combat, at least in defending. This last way to contribute isn't easy for casual players, new-, mid-, or oldbie. But there's lots of other ways for them to contribute while they work up to that one. Those other contributions should be promoted.
Being able to contribute, like Vendetta said, is another thing. They want to feel like part of the world. For some, helping with commodity production, adding to power, etc is nice. Having a trade works for others, Helping with a village is satisfying too. A lot of Seekers want to be able to assist in combat, at least in defending. This last way to contribute isn't easy for casual players, new-, mid-, or oldbie. But there's lots of other ways for them to contribute while they work up to that one. Those other contributions should be promoted.
Unknown2012-01-22 22:53:54
foolofsound:
I believe that the single best thing Estarra could do for the health of the game is to make lessons purchasable with gold; expensive, but purchaseable. This would act as an effective gold sink, allow new players a way to become competant though effort instead of expenditure, and would lower cost of entry into combat, all while allowing credits to retain their value thanks to artifacts!
The exact price would need to be based on how long the admin think it should take to trans a skill via IG man-hours. I'm honestly interested to know their thoughts on that. Otherwise I agree.
@Xikue: all the forms of contribution you mentioned don't really mean much. I mean, people quickly realize how much of a makework exercise those are in the current static environment.
Chade2012-01-22 23:19:42
PhantasmalKiller:
If you don't have nose, you're fighting blind in group. If you don't have pipes runes, you can get seriously screwed if they drop at the wrong time. Without a grip rune, you've got issues, because the rewield under aeon/choke/insert-other-aff-here isn't practical. Shield rune? After the huge nerf to shields it's more essential than fresh underwear. RoA? Fight a monk without one, and then fight one with one. Magic rune? It means your group kills the other group faster, meaning you're less likely to die.
And whoever told you weapon runes are 'nice but not worth it' is dead right. Paying 3K just to play the game is never worth it unless you're a masochist. Join a different class. If you want a prayer of fighting top-tier as a warrior? Good fskin luck without em.
Cloaking Gem is essential if you're an active fighter and wanna keep Demi. Otherwise, get used to only leaving your city while aboard an aethership, or in a large group.
Depends on Knight Class, weapon runes are nice for Paradigmatics users but in no way required. All you need is Aslaran and 280 speed rapiers.
Plus, Celina can tear it up as a knight without weapon runes. Our main problem at the moment is the RNG on swings which should be dealt with by the warrior report.
Unknown2012-01-23 00:19:46
vorld:
I wonder how many people have alts? that could be thing to keep in mind also
I once knew someone who played Lusternia for 6 years. Had 24 alts. O_O;; You alt-people are crazies. I can only afford one character per IRE game. I also do not play that "Who's alt is who's game". Long ago, I learned the hard way on what happens when you discriminate players who you think are alts (poor novice never came back). That kind of paranoia is an unhealthy mentality to the overall game.
Unknown2012-01-23 00:33:39
Ayisdra:
There isn't a need for an autosipper for influence, you can easily manual it completely (given that your client uses a command history).
Same with bashing, but bashing does need a bit more in terms of macros for curing. But both bashing and influencing are not hard to manual, esp just starting out.
Actually, one of the main reasons why Aetolia is second to Achaea in the rankings is because they have a firstaid skill that sips health/or mana appropriately when they're less than full health/or mana, stands them upright if they're proned, writhes if they're entangled, and consumes+apply curatives when they have afflictions. Of course, this skill has a 6 second balance so that novices can't spam it, and it definitely makes system building for novices a bit easier. That helped a great deal with novice retention for Aetolia, and allowed novices to spend more time doing what they came for in a text game: roleplay.
*edit* Oh right, and also allowed novices to get into combat a lot sooner.
Unknown2012-01-23 01:16:07
Edenwe:
Actually, one of the main reasons why Aetolia is second to Achaea in the rankings is because they have a firstaid skill that sips health/or mana appropriately when they're less than full health/or mana, stands them upright if they're proned, writhes if they're entangled, and consumes+apply curatives when they have afflictions. Of course, this skill has a 6 second balance so that novices can't spam it, and it definitely makes system building for novices a bit easier. That helped a great deal with novice retention for Aetolia, and allowed novices to spend more time doing what they came for in a text game: roleplay.
*edit* Oh right, and also allowed novices to get into combat a lot sooner.
We have something like that, yes. It doesn't sip, but it does the rest.
